The F1 thread

Dontgiveupyourdayjob · September 2023

boogieman said:

I was SO hoping the Ferraris could fend off Max and get the win but it’s just not going to happen this season is it? As ever the most entertaining bits were further down the order. Very impressed with Albon, he’s making that Williams really fly lately.

Albon seems to be driving the wheels of that Williams, though it's hard to know exactly how much he's being flattered by having a bit a useless teammate.

As with a majority of races this year it was actually really entertaining with great wheel to wheel racing throughout most of the field, but unfortunately with a very predictable winner.

sinbaadi · September 2023

It is fascinating that the media try to inject some excitement into this RBR era of dominance by focusing on the record breaking. Max doesn't care about that any more than Toto.

Max knows that this is his opportunity. Just as Lewis had, as Vettel had, as Schumacher had (how many world champion team mates did the two Germans have throughout their careers btw?).

If he is anything other than unforgivingly, relentlessly, ruthlessly taking every single point that this opportunity presents, then he is going to be performing to a lower standard than at any other time in his career. For him giving a single point away unnecessarily is a failure, even if he wins the title anyway.

I don't like him a lot and he is a total hypocrite when it comes to racing incidents, but I do admire that aspect of his performance.

boogieman · September 2023

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole.

Cols · September 2023

boogieman said:

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole.

Sadly, that’s been a basic feature of nearly every F1 World Champion for as long as I’ve been watching the sport.

The only exceptions in my time have been Hill, Button and Hakkinen (the last mitigated by Ron Dennis conducting obnoxious arsehole duties on his behalf).

Verstappen has, however, taken arseholery to a whole new level.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob · September 2023

Cols said:

boogieman said:

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole.

Sadly, that’s been a basic feature of nearly every F1 World Champion for as long as I’ve been watching the sport.

The only exceptions in my time have been Hill, Button and Hakkinen (the last mitigated by Ron Dennis conducting obnoxious arsehole duties on his behalf).

Verstappen has, however, taken arseholery to a whole new level.

I think a lot of that comes down to age/experience. Vettel was a petulant little arse while winning championships at Red Bull, but was very young. As he got older (possibly wiser) he became far more likeable. Alonso could be right dick in his youth, but now everyone seems to love him. A lot of people didn't take to Lewis in his early years at McLaren but now I feel he's a lot more widely liked/respected.

I feel like Hill, Button and Hakkinen that you reference were all a little bit older and more experienced when they won WDCs.

I think Max has actually become a bit more likeable in the past year or two, albeit from starting from a very low point!

Hoof · September 2023

sinbaadi said:

Max knows that this is his opportunity. Just as Lewis had, as Vettel had, as Schumacher had (how many world champion team mates did the two Germans have throughout their careers btw?).

One each. Vettel had Kimi at Ferrari, Schumacher had Rosberg as Merc (although obviously not WCD until a few years after).

Hoof · September 2023

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

Cols said:

boogieman said:

I don’t blame Max either, it’s just a shame he’s such an obnoxious arsehole.

Sadly, that’s been a basic feature of nearly every F1 World Champion for as long as I’ve been watching the sport.

The only exceptions in my time have been Hill, Button and Hakkinen (the last mitigated by Ron Dennis conducting obnoxious arsehole duties on his behalf).

Verstappen has, however, taken arseholery to a whole new level.

I think a lot of that comes down to age/experience. Vettel was a petulant little arse while winning championships at Red Bull, but was very young. As he got older (possibly wiser) he became far more likeable. Alonso could be right dick in his youth, but now everyone seems to love him. A lot of people didn't take to Lewis in his early years at McLaren but now I feel he's a lot more widely liked/respected.

I feel like Hill, Button and Hakkinen that you reference were all a little bit older and more experienced when they won WDCs.

I think Max has actually become a bit more likeable in the past year or two, albeit from starting from a very low point!

Hill was less experienced, I think 1996 was his 4th season. Max's first WDC was in his seventh season I think.

FelineGuitars · September 2023

I’m finding the Red Bull Dominance so boring because once Max is ahead he seems to win by half a minute or more .
Adrian Newey must be delighted with his hard work paying off

I was so glad Ferrari let their two drivers tussle it out and give us some decent racing.

I know team bosses are always upset when it happens because winning or points are more important in the short run, but for fans of F1 it is what we remember - it’s the balls out wheel to wheel stuff and acts of seeming lunacy that we all recall - like Giles Villeneuve driving with that shredded tire , or Lewis Hamilton winning the british GP with basically no front tire on one side - held together by willpower.

F1 is so sanitised with full safety cars if someone stops(kind of understandable but it breaks the flow so much) that it is the real racing moments that make it occasionally breathtaking to watch again
Didn’t we have something similar with Alonso earlier in the season too?

Cols · September 2023

Hoof said:

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

I think Max has actually become a bit more likeable in the past year or two, albeit from starting from a very low point!

Hill was less experienced, I think 1996 was his 4th season. Max's first WDC was in his seventh season I think.

Verstappen’s a bit more relaxed these days as he doesn’t really have any competition, either within the team or externally. I guarantee you that if he started getting regularly beat again the ‘entitled dick’ persona would return.

Hill was quite old (past 30 I think) by the time he made it into F1, having come up through the ranks in F3 and F3000 before a longish stint as Williams test driver.

Verstappen, on the other hand, had a single season of Euro F3 before being landing in Toro Rosso at the tender age of 17.

RiftAmps · September 2023

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-reveals-all-10-f1-teams-met-2022-cost-cap/10516548/

stickyfiddle · September 2023

RiftAmps said:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-reveals-all-10-f1-teams-met-2022-cost-cap/10516548/

I'm honestly slightly disappointed!

As for the Max/RB records, Toto is probably remembering 2016 where his guys won all but 2, and one of those was the infamous Spain race where they drove into each other. And let's be honest.. if they'd had Perez instead of Rosberg then Lewis would have won all but 1 that year, and you have to assume if Lewis hadn't had to push so hard against Nico then his engine might not have gone pop from the lead in Malaysia either.

But what is true is that even after Rosberg retired at the end of 2017, multiple drivers ran Mercedes close for wins even in their most dominant years, and Bottas was genuinely better than Hamilton on some days. Whereas at this point in 2023 it's essentially a foregone conclusion that Max will win every race barring mechanical issues or utter insanity with late-race safety cars or somesuch. Perez isn't even close and that's clear to everyone paying attention. And ironically, behind Max it's actually a pretty vintage season. It'd be interesting to see some race roundups written from a perspective that omits Max from the standings entirely

sinbaadi · September 2023

It's kind of funny that Lewis is saying that having team mates that at times could beat him, across a race, across a season occasionally, and therefore that his championships were harder fought, and so worth more..... essentially means that his titles are with more, and therefore he should be thought of as stronger (than Max who has journeyman Perez at the moment).

Funny logic to refer to the fact that people could beat you as a way of proving that you're better.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

sinbaadi said:

It's kind of funny that Lewis is saying that having team mates that at times could beat him, across a race, across a season occasionally, and therefore that his championships were harder fought, and so worth more..... essentially means that his titles are with more, and therefore he should be thought of as stronger (than Max who has journeyman Perez at the moment).

Funny logic to refer to the fact that people could beat you as a way of proving that you're better.

Lewis is right though. He's been up against multiple champions, remembering also that Rosberg is the only teammate ever to beat Schumacher (admittedly an older chilled Schumi, but still..). Max has been up against Perez, and before that a bunch of rookies and Ricciardo (who while I still really like, let's be honest the jury's out currently)

If RB had had the balls to hire Alonso and Max did to him what he's done to Checo it would be a very different story.

fretmeister · September 2023

sinbaadi said:

It's kind of funny that Lewis is saying that having team mates that at times could beat him, across a race, across a season occasionally, and therefore that his championships were harder fought, and so worth more..... essentially means that his titles are with more, and therefore he should be thought of as stronger (than Max who has journeyman Perez at the moment).

Funny logic to refer to the fact that people could beat you as a way of proving that you're better.

It's not weird at all.

Would Senna or Prost have been viewed in the same high regard without them at each other's throats for half a decade? Nope.

Boromedic · September 2023

Same reason Alonso is held in the highest regard, by beating Schumacher in his prime especially in 2006 in an arguably weaker car.

Look Max is a great driver, but... with the exception of one season where he ran Lewis hard, effectively broke the rules on a few occasions to try to beat him, and still needed the stewards to give him the title, he's not really had to beat anyone of a similar calibre in the same car. Jensen and Rosberg aren't Lewis level talents for sure, but they were better drivers than Perez is.

Cols · September 2023

Hamilton had to work bloody hard at beating Alonso, Button and Rosberg, World Champions all.

After Rosberg threw in the towel, the replacement Bottas was less of a problem. Fast enough to be right up behind Lewis and even to win on the odd day when things didn’t work out well, but never close enough for there to be any doubt about who was top dog.

dazzajl · September 2023

And there’s the rub. Max might be as good as anyone who’s ever won a championship but until he’s really tested, no one outside his fan base is going to afford him the same respect as the drivers who were.

However, he doesn’t seem to care how he wins so he’s perfectly happy with the situation and I doubt he’s going to lose a single winks sleep over what I think.

Cols · September 2023

Verstappen hasn’t had to deal with a top drawer driver in his own team since Ricciardo. Even with that, he wasn’t beating DR until Horner/Marko plainly nailed their colours to the Verstappen mast and made it abundantly clear that, in the event of a squabble, they were going to back Max to the hilt. This is always the way Red Bull have operated - they pick a favourite driver and get right behind him.

After Ricciardo left at the end of 2018 the team had the opportunity to bring seasoned pro Carlos Sainz Jr into the team. At the time he was still contracted to Red Bull but on loan to Renault.

Max was distinctly unenthusiastic about this idea - Carlos had been just as fast as him at Toro Rosso, and the two hadn’t got on well. It’s rumoured (and strongly denied by Marko) that Verstappen exercised a veto over the move.

Whatever the truth of the matter, the inexperienced Gasly was prematurely elevated to the top team, followed by the similarly ill-fated Albon. Neither were destined to give Max any trouble, and Perez was openly engaged to be a safe and steady wingman.

Checo is clearly on the way out now. Ricciardo is evidently the favoured replacement, but there’s also rumours that Red Bull are looking at breaking Lando Norris out of his McLaren contract. Now wouldn’t that be interesting?

Boromedic · September 2023

Lando in a Red Bull would be absolutely amazing but he's not as ruthless as Max nor is he quite on Max's level, so whilst Lando would run him hard, Max would no doubt win the most races for me. That being said he would take wins off him and he wouldn't get 10 in a row!

Would love to see it nonetheless!

fretmeister · September 2023

I don't think we can judge Lando like that yet. He's never been in a position to be ruthless or having a winning car.

Maybe the McLaren will be the one to catch RB next year?

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Honestly I think Lando would be nuts to go to RB now. Granted no one is beating them under these regs, but RB isn’t going to let anyone beat Max, so what would be the point?

McLaren is genuinely the only team to take a comprehensive step up this year (& maybe Williams?) so if they keep that trajectory that won’t be a bad place to be, and he’s absolutely #1 there right now

Emiel · September 2023

Norris will be plenty busy dealing with his rookie teammate Piastri, who's getting really up to speed now. I'm really impressed with the Australian youngster, he's quick, doesn't make many mistakes plus he has a calm head.

Max has been absolutely faultless after since he became a WC, to a degree I haven't seen since the best years of Michael Schumacher.

rlw · September 2023

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

euan · September 2023

In hindsight, makes a mockery of their sporting penalty.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs.

The same has probably happened before with other cars. I've heard guys from the F1 community suggest that if Alonso had been in the Lotus/Renault in 2012/2013 instead of Kimi he'd have given Vettel a much better run for the title than Kimi managed. There must be more examples.

Cols · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, I think Pérez would be driving a lot better if it wasn’t Verstappen in the other car.

He’s taken a psychological kicking this year ever since he started to openly suggest that it was Game On for the title. Max has absolutely pasted him since that point and the quality of his driving - historically, good rather than great - has suffered accordingly.

The same has probably happened before with other cars. I've heard guys from the F1 community suggest that if Alonso had been in the Lotus/Renault in 2012/2013 instead of Kimi he'd have given Vettel a much better run for the title than Kimi managed. There must be more examples.

The one which sticks in my head is Jacques Villeneuve making an absolute pig’s ear of securing the 1997 championship in an overwhelmingly superior Williams-Renault. Halfway through the season team members were openly muttering “If we still had Damon driving for us we’d have won this thing by now”.

Emiel · September 2023

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Did you start watching F1 in 2022?

What about...

- Mercedes finished 1st and 2nd in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. When they didn't win it usually was because of a collision or reliability issues. Imagine their winning tally if Rosberg would have continued and Ferrari didn't muck around with their engines...
- Ferrari finishing an easy 1st and 2nd in 2002 and 2004.
- Williams got 1st and 2nd in 1996 with a superior car and engine (can't say that about their drivers).
- Williams in 1992, 1993: best car, best engine, often qualifying second(s) in front of rivalling teams.
- McLaren in 1988, 1989: the best car and engine AND the best driver pair with Prost & Senna.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Cols said:

stickyfiddle said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs.

Somewhat counter-intuitively, I think Pérez would be driving a lot better if it wasn’t Verstappen in the other car.

He’s taken a psychological kicking this year ever since he started to openly suggest that it was Game On for the title. Max has absolutely pasted him since that point and the quality of his driving - historically, good rather than great - has suffered accordingly.

I completely agree. Perez has been much better since accepting that he ain't winning the WDC this year. And so if he'd had a regular teammate then maybe he'd have had a better run of results

fretmeister · September 2023

Emiel said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Did you start watching F1 in 2022?

What about...

- Mercedes finished 1st and 2nd in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. When they didn't win it usually was because of a collision or reliability issues. Imagine their winning tally if Rosberg would have continued and Ferrari didn't muck around with their engines...
- Ferrari finishing an easy 1st and 2nd in 2002 and 2004.
- Williams got 1st and 2nd in 1996 with a superior car and engine (can't say that about their drivers).
- Williams in 1992, 1993: best car, best engine, often qualifying second(s) in front of rivalling teams.
- McLaren in 1988, 1989: the best car and engine AND the best driver pair with Prost & Senna.

All true but also largely irrelevant to the point I think.
The issue isn't winning alone, it's the margins. The RB margin of winning to the next team is massive.

I've been watching since Alan Jones was WC and I've never seen a car consistently so much faster than the other teams, not even the Gordon Murray designed ones.

TimmyO · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Who knows tbh. If they had Perez and e.g. Hulk driving for them we'd probably be saying what a close fight it was between Merc and AM, and how could Newey not quite get a handle on these earo-heavy regs.

The same has probably happened before with other cars. I've heard guys from the F1 community suggest that if Alonso had been in the Lotus/Renault in 2012/2013 instead of Kimi he'd have given Vettel a much better run for the title than Kimi managed. There must be more examples.

Didn’t the 6-wheeler meet the then regs and thrash everyone and get withdrawn voluntarily mid season?

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