The F1 thread

stickyfiddle · September 2023

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn?

goldtop · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn?

Wow - I've got dim memories of that. Did they just change the regs to outlaw it on the spot? Seems a bit mean.

TimmyO · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn?

I had a vague recollection it was one or the other

Cols · September 2023

goldtop said:

stickyfiddle said:

I thought that was the Brabham fan car - won 1 race by a massive margin and was then withdrawn?

Wow - I've got dim memories of that. Did they just change the regs to outlaw it on the spot? Seems a bit mean.

No, Bernie Ecclestone - Brabham team owner at the time - had his eye on the rather larger prize of getting full control of the Formula One Constructors Association.

The other teams were extremely upset about the fan car and tried to get it banned on technical grounds. When this failed, rival drivers started to complain that it was unsafe, throwing dirt and stones into following cars.

In order to placate the other teams, Bernie agreed to withdraw the car after only one race (which Lauda won easily).

To this date, it remains the only F1 car with a 100% win record - which Red Bull are showing every sign of equaling this year.

goldtop · September 2023

Had to be a Bernie plan!

rlw · September 2023

Emiel said:

rlw said:

Re the Verstappen winning streak, we've seen similar domination before by teams and/or drivers and I think that we have to admit that the driver with the best car is more than likely to do better than the the others. Schumacher and Hamilton both proved this in the past.

But has there ever been such a better car than the rest? Not knocking Max but RB really have delivered the goods this season.

Did you start watching F1 in 2022?

What about...

- Mercedes finished 1st and 2nd in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. When they didn't win it usually was because of a collision or reliability issues. Imagine their winning tally if Rosberg would have continued and Ferrari didn't muck around with their engines...
- Ferrari finishing an easy 1st and 2nd in 2002 and 2004.
- Williams got 1st and 2nd in 1996 with a superior car and engine (can't say that about their drivers).
- Williams in 1992, 1993: best car, best engine, often qualifying second(s) in front of rivalling teams.
- McLaren in 1988, 1989: the best car and engine AND the best driver pair with Prost & Senna.

First GP i went to was won by Jim Clark if that helps......................... Last one I attended in the UK was won by Jaques Lafitte. Last one I attended was at Monza and won by Gerhard Berger with Alboretto second. Have attended numerous test days and qualifying since then but prefer my comfy sofa come race day.

So back to school laddie.

If you read what was written, you will see that I acknowledge that the better car usually wins. The question being, has there ever been a car so much better than the rest.

In the past, drivers would often win by up to 60 seonds against poor opposition but that faded away over the last ten to fifteen years as all the teams improved. Now, we are looking at Max winning, easily, by upwards of 30 seconds every time.

So, has there been another car so superior in the past. Consistently, not luckily, or against shite opposition?

.

JEM · September 2023

What's a bit worrying about the current RB domination is that in race trim it possibly has even more of an advantage than it appears. At Monza it took Max a while to get past Sainz but it's not a particularly easy circuit to pass on due DRS being much less effective (hence Albon was able to hold onto 7th). Once he took the lead Max was gaining a second a lap until he had a decent gap and then cruised home.

You can tell from his incredibly calm demeanour on the cool down laps, Max is winning these races at a canter. I suspect no one will get close to challenging RB/MV until the regs change again.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Guys used tj win by 60+ in the old days hit that wasn’t usually that the corners weren’t fast enough, it was that many of the fast ones couldn’t get to the end of the race.

Max took a good number of laps to take the lead this week, then clearly wasn’t trying hard once got he got there and still won by miles, while apparently also nursing some technical isssue

sinbaadi · September 2023

The car Vs car Vs driver Vs driver debate rears its head once again.

Is Max at full attack 100%? Or is it the classic of him getting 101% out of the car? Maybe he's only getting 99.8% out of the car and LeClerc could beat him? But maybe Max would be faster in the Ferrari? Or maybe Max would be faster than anyone in any car given car?

All very pertinent and ultimately unanswerable questions because this is F1.

It would be a brave bet to place on anyone being able to beat Max, but at the same time Perez is the epitome of average and only there because he brings the big bucks with him, so not a worthy benchmark by any stretch and would make most others look good in the same situation.

Boromedic · September 2023

I dunno, put Fernando, Lewis, Charles or Lando in that second car, they could beat Max, I think that would be a decent bet. Max is the same level as those guys imo, and they would show that in equal machinery.

sinbaadi · September 2023

Boromedic said:

I dunno, put Fernando, Lewis, Charles or Lando in that second car, they could beat Max, I think that would be a decent bet. Max is the same level as those guys imo, and they would show that in equal machinery.

That's the very thing about comparing drivers when they are in different machinery. It's so subjective, but always far easier to claim that someone in a winning team is one of the greats than someone in the midfield.

I hope that McLaren and Ferrari can put their drivers in a winning situation, but obviously if that happens in any sustained way then Max not winning anymore will be because of performance deficit, not because other drivers are better.

I would always argue for less technical development freedom, by the way, in case that isn't clear. The typical F1 fan has no idea what what they want means, and that close racing and technical innovation are directly opposed to one another. There's this fantasy world where those things all balance out but the underdog team owner signs the new Fangio and the new Gordon Murray and with this new wing design they start taking the fight to the big boys. All very Hollywood. Even the Brawn story is one of performance disparity that didn't quite swing far enough back the other way in time for Seb to take the first title, once they all started copying the optimal design exploits.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

sinbaadi said:

Boromedic said:

I dunno, put Fernando, Lewis, Charles or Lando in that second car, they could beat Max, I think that would be a decent bet. Max is the same level as those guys imo, and they would show that in equal machinery.

That's the very thing about comparing drivers when they are in different machinery. It's so subjective, but always far easier to claim that someone in a winning team is one of the greats than someone in the midfield.

I hope that McLaren and Ferrari can put their drivers in a winning situation, but obviously if that happens in any sustained way then Max not winning anymore will be because of performance deficit, not because other drivers are better.

I would always argue for less technical development freedom, by the way, in case that isn't clear. The typical F1 fan has no idea what what they want means, and that close racing and technical innovation are directly opposed to one another. There's this fantasy world where those things all balance out but the underdog team owner signs the new Fangio and the new Gordon Murray and with this new wing design they start taking the fight to the big boys. All very Hollywood. Even the Brawn story is one of performance disparity that didn't quite swing far enough back the other way in time for Seb to take the first title, once they all started copying the optimal design exploits.

100% all of this.

And Brawn is a bizarre underdog story, because it was actually the result of a multi-year Honda investment that effectively got lucky when Honda pulled the plug because it meant they could shoehorn in the better Mercedes engine. I can't imagine it ever being repeated

Emiel · September 2023

The 2026 rule changes have the potential to stir things up quite a bit. We'll see some teams/engine manufacturers come up with a better package than others. It's usually the works teams that get things right, and it's pretty exciting there will be 2 more in '26 with Aston Martin-Honda and Sauber-Audi, perhaps even 3 with Andretti-Cadillac.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Emiel said:

The 2026 rule changes have the potential to stir things up quite a bit. We'll see some teams/engine manufacturers come up with a better package than others. It's usually the works teams that get things right, and it's pretty exciting there will be 2 more in '26 with Aston Martin-Honda and Sauber-Audi, perhaps even 3 with Andretti-Cadillac.

Ferrari 2009 and the entire history of Toyota F1 2002-2009 would beg to differ!

That said I have far more faith in the AM and Audi guys than I do in modern-day Ferrari

sinbaadi · September 2023

Big rule changes shake things up, but the likelihood that you'll have 2 or more teams on a truly level footing in year 1 of any period or "era" is far lower than it is for year 5 or 6 of that era.

Roll the dice and hope that at least the team with the edge is different from the one that has been winning for most of the previous era.

The fact that even after 5 or 6 years you can still have a team clearly out in front is testament to how deep into the technical regulations it is possible to go. But this can be also be attributed to budget limitations and caps that can prevent teams from making radical redesigns which would be like the rolling the dice again (and might be what it takes to find that edge).

I like it when a new set of regulations comes along because car design and aerodynamics are of interest to me, but I have zero expectation that there will be a close fight between two teams at the front in the first season.

fretmeister · September 2023

Marko at it again.

This time claiming that Checo's fluctuations in form are because he's South American and not Dutch or German like Max / Seb.

Helmut Marko issues statement on ‘offensive’ Sergio Perez remark (msn.com)

Racist old fool.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

I mean.. it's hardly news that Marko is a dickhead, is it?

Cols · September 2023

He’s apologised now.

Evidently someone from Red Bull HQ explained to him using small words that Latin America is an important market for their fizzy drinks, and it’s unwise to alienate them.

Not to mention the fact that South America has quite a few Grand Prix wins and World Championships under its belt, which does make Helmut look a bit thick.

euan · September 2023

Looking forward to Red Bull going all day of the living dead for Helmut at the Mexico GP

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Cols said:

He’s apologised now.

Evidently someone from Red Bull HQ explained to him using small words that Latin America is an important market for their fizzy drinks, and it’s unwise to alienate them.

Not to mention the fact that South America has quite a few Grand Prix wins and World Championships under its belt, which does make Helmut look a bit thick.

Not to mentioned that Mexico isn’t in South America…!

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Love this

DannyRic and Liam in the TR (or BossBull or whatever) next year?

Image: https://preview.redd.it/v7ztt06c08ob1.png?width=514&auto=webp&s=93a9cc2f7a48895b068772d018159fe9ae605c7c

Cols · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

DannyRic and Liam in the TR (or BossBull or whatever) next year?

Could be.

Rumours are that the unfortunate Tsunoda - who’s done a very creditable job this year - is going to be thrown into Mario’s Meat Grinder to make way for the impressive Lawson, with DR sitting in a hopeful holding pattern at The Junior Team while waiting for Perez’s contract to spin out.

Or it could be that Perez gets offered a demotion to The Junior Team for 2024, proudly declines and DR gets an early promotion…

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Crikey Mclaren aren't fucking about with the new sidepods

Image: https://cdn-8.motorsport.com/images/amp/6AEQqa96/s1000/mclaren-mcl60-technical-detail.webp

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Cols said:

stickyfiddle said:

DannyRic and Liam in the TR (or BossBull or whatever) next year?

Could be.

Rumours are that the unfortunate Tsunoda - who’s done a very creditable job this year - is going to be thrown into Mario’s Meat Grinder to make way for the impressive Lawson, with DR sitting in a hopeful holding pattern at The Junior Team while waiting for Perez’s contract to spin out.

Or it could be that Perez gets offered a demotion to The Junior Team for 2024, proudly declines and DR gets an early promotion…

Yeah, I've seen similar suggestions. Assuming Lawson does well this weekend (and next if DR isn't back) then he & DR stay within RB next year. Yuki could maybe move into the Albon/DR-style 3rd driver thing while waiting for Honda to put him into Aston Martin.

But I gotta say I can't imagine anything less exciting than Stroll/Tsunoda as a driver lineup, so I hope that doesn't happen!

Cols · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:
But I gotta say I can't imagine anything less exciting than Stroll/Tsunoda as a driver lineup, so I hope that doesn't happen!

It’s a growing problem for Aston Martin.

Stroll’s not a bad driver, but he’s not a great driver either. That was okay when they were just pottering around in the midfield scraping the odd point, but now they’ve got a serious car which can fight at the front it’s costing them positions and money in the constructor’s championship.

Tsunoda’s also very capable, and he’s done well this year by easily seeing off De Vries and not getting pasted by DR. But he’s not shown much that marks him out as a really top drawer driver.

Come 2026, the team could be forced to have two good-but-not-great drivers for personal and political reasons rather than outright performance.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

Cols said:

stickyfiddle said:
But I gotta say I can't imagine anything less exciting than Stroll/Tsunoda as a driver lineup, so I hope that doesn't happen!

It’s a growing problem for Aston Martin.

Stroll’s not a bad driver, but he’s not a great driver either. That was okay when they were just pottering around in the midfield scraping the odd point, but now they’ve got a serious car which can fight at the front it’s costing them positions and money in the constructor’s championship.

Tsunoda’s also very capable, and he’s done well this year by easily seeing off De Vries and not getting pasted by DR. But he’s not shown much that marks him out as a really top drawer driver.

Come 2026, the team could be forced to have two good-but-not-great drivers for personal and political reasons rather than outright performance.

Yeah. Thing with Yuki is that RB didn't want him over Gasly. And didn't really want Gasly either.

How old is Lance? 28? Could that given him an out in a sort of "I'm bored and I want to go and race elsewhere before I'm too old" vibe.

EDIT: No he's 24. Bloody hell!

Cols · September 2023

There’s dodgy/unsubstantiated rumours that Stroll might retire from F1 early to seek fortune and glory in the world of professional tennis.

TimmyO · September 2023

Cols said:

There’s dodgy/unsubstantiated rumours that Stroll might retire from F1 early to seek fortune and glory in the world of professional tennis.

Is his Dad going to buy Wimbledon? Or some Umpires?

Cols · September 2023

TimmyO said:

Cols said:

There’s dodgy/unsubstantiated rumours that Stroll might retire from F1 early to seek fortune and glory in the world of professional tennis.

Is his Dad going to buy Wimbledon? Or some Umpires?

Maybe a high-tech self-targeting tennis racquet.

Cols · September 2023

Joking aside, isn’t Lawrence Stroll the most awesome dad ever?

Most kids are lucky to get a Scalextric set, young Lance gets his own F1 team and a couple of world champions to play with.

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