The Football Thread.

TeleMaster · September 2023

Philly_Q said:

There were injustices, and terrible decisions, for many decades before VAR existed, and clubs just had to live with the consequences. Now just because we have a system which is supposed to "eliminate" mistakes - but doesn't - I don't think it justifies extreme measures to compensate for the mistakes which do still occur.

I don't think you can ever replay matches (unless they're abandoned for some reason). And you certainly can't award points for what might have happened had an error not been made. They just have to keep working on VAR and make it better. Or accept it's failed, give it up and go back to the way things were.

The difference now is that they review the decisions and they make the errors with video technology. It's very different to a ref on the other side of the pitch not seeing a handball where we often weren't sure when we even watched MOTD because the angles weren't there.

These people are reviewing it in real time and via replay and are still getting it completely wrong.

I think an effort to right the wrong should be made some how because they brought this system in specifically to stop this from happening. This current method is wrong and it needs getting rid of in that case.

Cup games used to have replays all the time, even finals.

Philly_Q · September 2023

I agree, the idea of VAR is that they should not be getting decisions wrong. I still don't see how you can realistically have a range of "special measures" for the situations when they are wrong.

TeleMaster · September 2023

Philly_Q said:

I agree, the idea of VAR is that they should not be getting decisions wrong. I still don't see how you can realistically have a range of "special measures" for the situations when they are wrong.

Fan participation crossbar challenge. First to 50 wins.

TTony · September 2023

Looks like Luton Town (total spend on team £123,620) are now 1pt behind Chelsea (who paid more for their tea lady).

S56035 · September 2023

TTony said:

Looks like Luton Town (total spend on team £123,620) are now 1pt behind Chelsea (who paid more for their tea lady).

I get what you're saying but Nkamba cost 2m on his own.

UnclePsychosis · September 2023

I am quite enjoying seeing the rest of the world catch on to what I've been saying about VAR since the beginning. Its shite, bin it.

I don't really bother with the Emperor's New Clothes of the Premier League any more but I thought I'd see what the fuss was about with the Jota red (and an injury time Liverpool OG will never not be funny). Regardless of the first yellow, once it happens hes an absolute halfwit for lunging in like that a few seconds later.

RaymondLin · September 2023

Too many human errors with VAR, the whole point of VAR is to remove human errors of refereeing. Having a video replay to eliminate the error on the pitch…yet people in booth are just incompetent.

The tech is fine, but the people they employ are idiots, I seem to be able to do a better job from my living room than they can in 1/4 of the time.

Are these people in VAR room like 90 year old scared of technology? I can picture them going “Which is the rewind button?”

Philly_Q · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

Philly_Q said:

I agree, the idea of VAR is that they should not be getting decisions wrong. I still don't see how you can realistically have a range of "special measures" for the situations when they are wrong.

Fan participation crossbar challenge. First to 50 wins.

Mascot fight.

UnclePsychosis · September 2023

I am genuinely baffled that anyone ever expected it to work.

Before VAR existed, every single week on the TV there were refereeing decisions that would be replayed eight hundred times in slow motion from four hundred different angles and players, managers, pundits, and supporters couldn't ever agree on what the correct decision should have been. Transpose that to a VAR bunker and suddenly everyone's clutching pearls in surprise.

Football refereeing is too varied and far too subjective to get every single decision "right". Its why VAR was doomed to failure before it even started. Kill it with fire and give fans their game back please.

blobb · September 2023

VAR shouldn't need to exist. The whole point of Association football is to play to the whistle. Just because tv replays came along to show mistakes is irrelevant. The ref makes the decisions. End of. Some you win, some you lose. Only when Ferguson and Wenger were playing mind games with each other did these 'costly mistakes' become so influential. Problem is we have got it now and we're stuck with it because FIFA has it (how come it's not so controversial in Europe? Or is it?). Clough was right, he was a big supporter of abiding by the ref decisions. Don't get into controversial situations. Win the game by beating the other team don't rely on excuses aimed at the ref.

Anyway, Wolves beat City. Up the Wolves.

..and well done Dave Edwards.

RaymondLin · September 2023

Without replay, we can just go with what happened in the moment and we accept the decision in the moment. With TV replays we cannot get around the fact and the idea that if we have the technology, why can't we use it to remove the mistakes on the field in the game.

Whilst we accept mistakes on the field as they happen in real-time, we are less forgiving when someone watching the replay get it wrong and with good justification too. We can't go back to without VAR now, the cat is out of the bag and because they to correct more on field mistakes than not since humans will make mistakes. What we expect though are there should be zero mistakes...but realistically, that won't happen, however, it seems it is happening every week and the percentage is a lot higher than it should be, on decisions that shouldn't be, especially on offside decisions. These are not like handball where there is an element of subjective element. Offside decisions are black and white.

guitars4you · October 2023

We all have to accept human error on the pitch when you have a split second to make a decision- same for players with a poor pass, poor interception, poor shot and missed opportunities- same for the ref and linesman

Even some discretion on var about opinions - ie was it hand ball or was it a red card etc - but when offside can be drawn down to your big toe was offside with such tight margins, and you effectively have no time limit to get the correct result, with multiple cameras and re-runs of the situation , then no excuses to get it wrong

Titles, European qualification or relegation can hang on such errors- no option for a new game or reinstate the goal - just get it right

100 agree with @RaymondLin comment above

mikeyrob73 · October 2023

The offside thing with VAR is pish
why not make it where the players feet are planted? You then have a straight point of reference instead of oh his left shoulder is offside / onside. It confuses an already confused rule.

Make it straight forward to use

guitars4you · October 2023

mikeyrob73 said:

The offside thing with VAR is pish
why not make it where the players feet are planted? You then have a straight point of reference instead of oh his left shoulder is offside / onside. It confuses an already confused rule.
Make it straight forward to use

I agree about the feet as the ‘line’ and not your body - I recall Bamford given off side because his hand was offside as he was pointing to where he wanted the ball to be played- Scored but var intervened

guitars4you · October 2023

Must admit that Klopp’s reaction surprised me - But agree with him - sit down and discuss properly and don’t sensationalise it with managers who are on a high after such a game

TeleMaster · October 2023

guitars4you said:

Must admit that Klopp’s reaction surprised me - But agree with him - sit down and discuss properly and don’t sensationalise it with managers who are on a high after such a game

He was bemused. I think anger comes later or something, after guilt, denial etc.

victorludorum · October 2023

MagicPigDetective said:

Klopp showed remarkable restraint in his post match conference, given the outrageously incompetent officiating. Unbelievably bad. Proud of the second half performance, Spurs couldn't find a way to break us down till only the very end.

Maybe in the back of his mind he was thinking about last season and how Liverpool benefitted nicely from VAR.

axisus · October 2023

Honestly, why do they employ some refs if they can't get a decision like that Liverpool 'offside' right? Even Blind Lemon Jefferson would have got that one right. Refereeing is not a high enough standard. And VAR is sh*te.

axisus · October 2023

So, Ten Hag, I thought that Man U finally had the right manager, but it's looking something like another false dawn. He doesn't appear to be able to improve players, inspire players, set the team up well, have a decent plan or playing style.

They are still years away from anywhere. Such a poorly run club, I blame the Glazers, it's basically since they took over.

mrkb · October 2023

axisus said:

Honestly, why do they employ some refs if they can't get a decision like that Liverpool 'offside' right? Even Blind Lemon Jefferson would have got that one right. Refereeing is not a high enough standard. And VAR is sh*te.

The ref doesn’t see/ flag the offside, the linesman does.

TTony · October 2023

mrkb said:

axisus said:

Honestly, why do they employ some refs if they can't get a decision like that Liverpool 'offside' right? Even Blind Lemon Jefferson would have got that one right. Refereeing is not a high enough standard. And VAR is sh*te.

The ref doesn’t see/ flag the offside, the linesman does.

I have some sympathy for the on-field officials.

Firstly they know that any decision they make can be referred to VAR and over-turned - so the on-field team aren't really "in control" of the game as they used to be, they're there to go to the monitor and do as told by VAR.

Which also means that, even if only subconsciously, they know that they don't have to get those decisions right, because VAR will (allegedly) correct any errors.

Ironic that the linesman got raised his flag immediately (and got it wrong) whereas they generally get berated for only raising their flag 30secs later when the situation was far more clearcut.

RaymondLin · October 2023

I know it is impossible to have ZERO mistakes in whatever system they deploy. It is a non-zero number of occasion where mistakes will be made.

However, even though it would be non-zero, I expect the number to be much smaller than it is now, especially when it comes to offsides where the rule is black and white.

In terms of red cards, I think they should show the on field referee EVERY angle of the foul as it happened in both real time and slow mo. Not cherry pick the worst angle and 1 shot and 1 speed. So the ref has all the information. Cherry picking is your evidence is too biased and not good for anyone.

TeleMaster · October 2023

axisus said:

So, Ten Hag, I thought that Man U finally had the right manager, but it's looking something like another false dawn. He doesn't appear to be able to improve players, inspire players, set the team up well, have a decent plan or playing style.

They are still years away from anywhere. Such a poorly run club, I blame the Glazers, it's basically since they took over.

Definitely need to question it but I think that it's the players and the culture at the club. Look at all the drama around multiple players, bother past and present. From what I gather if ETH is sacked there will be riots.

RaymondLin · October 2023

There are much deeper problems with ETH, much deeper, I am not sure changing managers would help, even if you put in Ange or even Pep. The problem goes very deep and the off field problems with certain players are just the tip of the ice berg.

I don't know what the solution is, but sacking him is not the solution.

guitars4you · October 2023

I wish the board would have sacked Fergie before Mark Robins saved him !!!!

yet in truth that shows how fickle we can all be - board, fans, press etc

tony99 · October 2023

Seen a few mad shouts in here over time but replaying matches because you're not happy with a result is pretty far out.

Philly_Q · October 2023

TeleMaster said:

guitars4you said:

Must admit that Klopp’s reaction surprised me - But agree with him - sit down and discuss properly and don’t sensationalise it with managers who are on a high after such a game

He was bemused. I think anger comes later or something, after guilt, denial etc.

Yeah, I think he was so completely befuddled by it all that he couldn't get angry, or even find it in himself to be horrible to the interviewers.

scrumhalf · October 2023

I will have sympathy for players who feel they have been on the end of wrong refereeing decisions when they don't spend the other 89 minutes of the game trying to con the referee.

What goes around comes around.

guitars4you · October 2023

tony99 said:

Seen a few mad shouts in here over time but replaying matches because you're not happy with a result is pretty far out.

I can’t recall any one asking for that

RaymondLin · October 2023

Apparently, the VAR people didn't see the linesman's flag going up, he didn't see Dias stop celebrating, VAR thought the goal was given, hence "Check complete"

If they weren't watching the game....what the heck were they watching?

And perhaps they should stop using ambiguous terms like "Check Complete", and use the term what they are thinking.

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