The Football Thread.

Philly_Q · September 2023

TTony said:

Philly_Q said:

On a serious note, call me naive but I genuinely can't understand footballers and their never-ending greed for money.

It's all relative, and all based on your own individual perspective, experience and expectations.

Henderson may well look at Ronaldo (or whoever) and think that Ronaldo is paid a ridiculous amount of money.
We look at Henderson (and the other top earning footballers) and think that they're paid a ridiculous amount of money.
We might also look at FTSE-100 CEOs and think that they earn a ridiculous amount of money.
Most of the people in small boats crossing the channel would look at us and think that we earn a ridiculous amount of money.

Footballers are just taking whatever they can get from their employers for doing their job, same as we do, same as most people do.

Their - and our - lifestyles soon grow into (and often beyond) our income to the point that we think that we couldn't possibly survive on any less. Whereas those people in the boats clearly have survived on a lot less, albeit with very different lifestyles.

I understand all that of course, this is nothing to do with me going "bah, footballers are paid much more than I am for much less work". I understand market forces, I understand many people are paid what seem like disproportionate amounts of money. I don't care how much they're paid, it's the greed for even more I have a problem with.

But sticking with football and taking - again - Jordan Henderson as an example, he didn't "need" a salary four times (reportedly) the amount he was already earning (plus, possibly, additional tax savings on top of that). He's just being greedy, despite his protestations. He's doing nothing to develop the game of football abroad, or whatever he claims. The Saudi league will never truly turn into a major, high-level league because quite apart from all political and ethical considerations, they're playing walking football in ridiculous temperatures.

Compare with someone like James Milner, in a very similar position to Henderson he's gone to Brighton, he's quite possibly taken a pay cut for a move to a less high-profile but well-run and developing club. A genuine football project, and no doubt a very pleasant lifestyle for his family. And in a year or two he'll perhaps see out his career at a Championship club and move into management. Henderson could be doing something like that instead of abandoning his principles for big bucks.

TeleMaster · September 2023

I've no problem people being paid the value of their labour. These footballers are the product, they do the work and they should get paid for it and if that's zillions so be it. Rather them than the CEO's and shareholders who do nothing but take money for sitting around and running clubs poorly.

The issue of pay in this, and other industries highlights the disparity between wages in that one, and other industries, teaching, healthcare, retail etc and for those at the top and the bottom, and wider society in general. And also you have to add in the fact that we are paying for this, through TV subscriptions, season tickets, shirt sales and in many other ways, so if the wages and costs result in normal people not being able to watch their team, or season tickets being £2-3K like at Arsenal and Fulham which alienates normal working class people, then we have to address that.

Players pretending they're going to Saudi Arabia as some kind of martyr though, give me a break. Again, I've no problem with people being paid well when if they're selling their labour, but not at the cost of other people.

guitars4you · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

I've no problem people being paid the value of their labour. These footballers are the product, they do the work and they should get paid for it and if that's zillions so be it. Rather them than the CEO's and shareholders who do nothing but take money for sitting around and running clubs poorly.

The issue of pay in this, and other industries highlights the disparity between wages in that one, and other industries, teaching, healthcare, retail etc and for those at the top and the bottom, and wider society in general. And also you have to add in the fact that we are paying for this, through TV subscriptions, season tickets, shirt sales and in many other ways, so if the wages and costs result in normal people not being able to watch their team, or season tickets being £2-3K like at Arsenal and Fulham which alienates normal working class people, then we have to address that.

Players pretending they're going to Saudi Arabia as some kind of martyr though, give me a break. Again, I've no problem with people being paid well when if they're selling their labour, but not at the cost of other people.

As an overview I agree with you - The reverse of this is the past - Go back to our 1966 hero's and most/all sold their medals as they had little to live on after the game - Total insult to the game that Bobby Moore died a poor broken man and most honours he acquired, came many years after his death - Be it a statue or his name on part of the stand - And why he was never made a sir is beyond me - He wasn't even given an ambassador role by the FA

In a commercial venture it is very hard to say Ronaldo and co don't deserve to be paid for their part within a global success story - Rightly or wrongly, sport is a multi million dollar industry with the bulk of this funded by TV subscriptions and sponsorship - Plus big price money for the winners of sports like Golf, Tennis etc - My sister is nurse and will moan left right and centre about the wages of Ronaldo and co v that of a nurse - And yes she makes a very good point - But one wage is paid for my an under funded organisation and one is paid for by a huge commercial yet generally privately owned venture

Granted some sport stars are spoilt, have no decorum etc - Others are more level headed - Others will help in some way or another with charitable causes

ronnyb · September 2023

My grandad used to say that Jimmy Hill ruined football. Hill was one of the leading figures in the PFA who got a footballers maximum wage of £20 a week abolished in 1961. Incidentally the average wage for an adult in 1961 was £14.

DrCornelius · September 2023

tony99 said:

axisus said:

Philly_Q said:

On a serious note, call me naive but I genuinely can't understand footballers and their never-ending greed for money.

I know there's the old "short career, long time retired" argument, but that's a throwback to the days when footballers retired on £100 a week and became builders or pub landlords. A top player today can not only make all the money they'll ever need in that "short career", but someone like Henderson, in particular, has decades ahead of him as a well-paid coach or pundit.

And those situations where a top player falls out of favour at their club, but we're told the club can't sell him, although there's interest, because "no one can afford his wages". Well if he wants to play, why the fuck can't he take a pay cut? From "stratospherically well-paid" to "extraordinarily well-paid"? I honestly don't get it.

I do realise that we have to factor in greedy agents so it's not just the players, but even so.

100% my thoughts! It really winds me up when pundits come out with that 'short career' bollocks these days. To be honest I admired Beckham, who I believe gave away ALL his PSG wages to a local charity. THAT's what footballers should be about these days!

I admire Richarlison for similar; donates a percentage of his salary to a kids charity in Brazil. An absolute top fella he is.

Zaha was the same - pretty sure it was 10 pct so over half a million pounds per year

tony99 · September 2023

Don't worry, captain of captains Jordo Hendo will have all the saudis wearing rainbow keffiyehs before the season is out.

thecolourbox · September 2023

I believe Sadio Mane, formerly of Liverpool, is another excellent example of putting his high earnings to a more benevolent use - lots of charity work in his native Senegal, schools, hospitals, loads of stuff

TeleMaster · September 2023

guitars4you said:

TeleMaster said:

I've no problem people being paid the value of their labour. These footballers are the product, they do the work and they should get paid for it and if that's zillions so be it. Rather them than the CEO's and shareholders who do nothing but take money for sitting around and running clubs poorly.

The issue of pay in this, and other industries highlights the disparity between wages in that one, and other industries, teaching, healthcare, retail etc and for those at the top and the bottom, and wider society in general. And also you have to add in the fact that we are paying for this, through TV subscriptions, season tickets, shirt sales and in many other ways, so if the wages and costs result in normal people not being able to watch their team, or season tickets being £2-3K like at Arsenal and Fulham which alienates normal working class people, then we have to address that.

Players pretending they're going to Saudi Arabia as some kind of martyr though, give me a break. Again, I've no problem with people being paid well when if they're selling their labour, but not at the cost of other people.

As an overview I agree with you - The reverse of this is the past - Go back to our 1966 hero's and most/all sold their medals as they had little to live on after the game - Total insult to the game that Bobby Moore died a poor broken man and most honours he acquired, came many years after his death - Be it a statue or his name on part of the stand - And why he was never made a sir is beyond me - He wasn't even given an ambassador role by the FA

In a commercial venture it is very hard to say Ronaldo and co don't deserve to be paid for their part within a global success story - Rightly or wrongly, sport is a multi million dollar industry with the bulk of this funded by TV subscriptions and sponsorship - Plus big price money for the winners of sports like Golf, Tennis etc - My sister is nurse and will moan left right and centre about the wages of Ronaldo and co v that of a nurse - And yes she makes a very good point - But one wage is paid for my an under funded organisation and one is paid for by a huge commercial yet generally privately owned venture

Granted some sport stars are spoilt, have no decorum etc - Others are more level headed - Others will help in some way or another with charitable causes

For me it's about making sure that the money goes to the people who are doing the work. I'll always support people being paid well, and that includes nurse, shop workers, cleaners, film stars whoever and I also support much fairer redistribution of wealth across all industries and throughout society. And being a nurse myself, I know that even in private hospitals where they are making a lot of money not only through private individuals, but through the government subsidising them too, those nurses aren't paid their worth either. So for me it's not about whether it's a private or public industry, if they're a footballer or a dinner lady it's about fairness and closing wage disparity.

Footballers aren't the enemy just because nurses don't earn enough, but silly comments by mega rich footballers should be called out.

Maybe this is for a different sub forum, which I gleefully avoid.

guitars4you · September 2023

Danger of going off topic on a football thread which should be more about what happens on the pitch - But as we are on wages etc then how about this - Tax office looking at declaring him bankrupt - I was going to say 'how can you owe so much' - I know the answer but the question is still relevant

Ex-Liverpool star John Barnes owes £238k in tax

TeleMaster · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Danger of going off topic on a football thread which should be more about what happens on the pitch - But as we are on wages etc then how about this - Tax office looking at declaring him bankrupt - I was going to say 'how can you owe so much' - I know the answer but the question is still relevant

Ex-Liverpool star John Barnes owes £238k in tax

Maybe accountancy, or self declaration errors?

axisus · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

guitars4you said:

Danger of going off topic on a football thread which should be more about what happens on the pitch - But as we are on wages etc then how about this - Tax office looking at declaring him bankrupt - I was going to say 'how can you owe so much' - I know the answer but the question is still relevant

Ex-Liverpool star John Barnes owes £238k in tax

Maybe accountancy, or self declaration errors?

Poor old John, he was the generation that had to slum it on £10k a week. How ever did they survive.

TeleMaster · September 2023

I got this commemorative booklet and coin through the post today. A nice touch for season ticket holders.

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/98b3a27f5c5a7d82dfa4609e378b0f1a8f8aa6bd3122537bde

axisus · September 2023

Man U really are sh*te this season. The honeymoon with Ten Hag seems over. I was happy with him when he took over, seemed way better than other managers we've had over the past decade, but I think that some of his flaws are showing a bit. Specifically he doesn't improve players. Look at Pep, he improves players. Ten Hag does not. Also, anyone who keeps flogging the dead horse of Martial does not have vision! Lastly, we got rid of the golden gloves goalie of last season. I think it's going to be a horribly long campaign.

Also, Luton lost again ...

swiller · September 2023

Brighton are a good team and few teams or fans can understand them. They beat us (NUFC) in our last game and similar brighton performance.
Toon wise... Not looking forward to this one today if i am honest. Brentford, like brighton have great mental abilities and a great manager.
NUFC are on a bit of a retrace from the optimism/ecstacy of last year. Good that wilson is starting, thoroughly deserved. When he plays he scores. Unless recovering from something, tonali on the bench is an odd one.
I have a very interesting game predicted, 3-2 or 2-1 to brentford. NUFC are suffering entitlement still. As are Man U(re). Brentford playing for all the right reasons still.

TTony · September 2023

Reasonably happy with Spurs' start to the season, but very happy that Richarlison got a goal *and* an assist today.

sev112 · September 2023

Oi Manchester City, did you not get the script for this year ??

S56035 · September 2023

Liverpool looked mostly shit but still winning so that's good.

TeleMaster · September 2023

sev112 said:

Oi Manchester City, did you not get the script for this year ??

Credit to them for winning but it's such a dull style of football.

Whenever the away fans started singing 'Champions of Europe...' we gave it back to them 10 fold.

guitars4you · September 2023

axisus said:

Man U really are sh*te this season. The honeymoon with Ten Hag seems over. I was happy with him when he took over, seemed way better than other managers we've had over the past decade, but I think that some of his flaws are showing a bit. Specifically he doesn't improve players. Look at Pep, he improves players. Ten Hag does not. Also, anyone who keeps flogging the dead horse of Martial does not have vision! Lastly, we got rid of the golden gloves goalie of last season. I think it's going to be a horribly long campaign.

Also, Luton lost again ...

hard to know if Ten Hag has bitten off more than he can chew . And/or he is not as good as everyone hoped for . Or indeed he just needs more time
He is obviously trying to stamp his authority on the club yet appears to alienate players in the process. Ie Scott T - He’d walk into many PL teams - He may not be world class but he is generally a solid player who delivers on a regular basis- Recent games for Scotland show his passion and commitment
Man U don’t have poor players but they don’t appear to have a functional game plan and identity at the moment

guitars4you · September 2023

S56035 said:

Liverpool looked mostly shit but still winning so that's good.

Not sure how Klopp does not get pulled in by the PL for his permanent rant and raves - Thought they were trying to cut back on such tough line antics
There was a time when Klopp was a breath of fresh air, but now his perpetual moaning does your head in - It gets to the point where he thinks he is better than the authorities

TeleMaster · September 2023

He's angry when he looses, but he's also angry when he wins

S56035 · September 2023

guitars4you said:

S56035 said:

Liverpool looked mostly shit but still winning so that's good.

Not sure how Klopp does not get pulled in by the PL for his permanent rant and raves - Thought they were trying to cut back on such tough line antics
There was a time when Klopp was a breath of fresh air, but now his perpetual moaning does your head in - It gets to the point where he thinks he is better than the authorities

Yeah he's pretty bad having a go at the forth official. Don't know if he's the worst but if not the whoever is must be bad.

victorludorum · September 2023

guitars4you said:

axisus said:

Man U really are sh*te this season. The honeymoon with Ten Hag seems over. I was happy with him when he took over, seemed way better than other managers we've had over the past decade, but I think that some of his flaws are showing a bit. Specifically he doesn't improve players. Look at Pep, he improves players. Ten Hag does not. Also, anyone who keeps flogging the dead horse of Martial does not have vision! Lastly, we got rid of the golden gloves goalie of last season. I think it's going to be a horribly long campaign.

Also, Luton lost again ...

hard to know if Ten Hag has bitten off more than he can chew . And/or he is not as good as everyone hoped for . Or indeed he just needs more time
He is obviously trying to stamp his authority on the club yet appears to alienate players in the process. Ie Scott T - He’d walk into many PL teams - He may not be world class but he is generally a solid player who delivers on a regular basis- Recent games for Scotland show his passion and commitment
Man U don’t have poor players but they don’t appear to have a functional game plan and identity at the moment

I've thought for a long time that he'll get found out this year. The Dutch league isn't great; remember that even Schteeve McLaren won it.

TeleMaster · September 2023

victorludorum said:

guitars4you said:

axisus said:

Man U really are sh*te this season. The honeymoon with Ten Hag seems over. I was happy with him when he took over, seemed way better than other managers we've had over the past decade, but I think that some of his flaws are showing a bit. Specifically he doesn't improve players. Look at Pep, he improves players. Ten Hag does not. Also, anyone who keeps flogging the dead horse of Martial does not have vision! Lastly, we got rid of the golden gloves goalie of last season. I think it's going to be a horribly long campaign.

Also, Luton lost again ...

hard to know if Ten Hag has bitten off more than he can chew . And/or he is not as good as everyone hoped for . Or indeed he just needs more time
He is obviously trying to stamp his authority on the club yet appears to alienate players in the process. Ie Scott T - He’d walk into many PL teams - He may not be world class but he is generally a solid player who delivers on a regular basis- Recent games for Scotland show his passion and commitment
Man U don’t have poor players but they don’t appear to have a functional game plan and identity at the moment

I've though for a long time that he'll get found out this year. The Dutch league isn't great; remember that even Schteeve McLaren won it.

I don't even think it's him. He's obviously a top manager. They're competing with City, Liverpool, Arsenal. These clubs have all modernised their facilities and approaches and appear to tolerate no drama.

From what people have said, United have out of date training facilities and are a good few years behind other clubs in this regard. You then add in the off field dramas from the likes of Antony and Greenwood, Sancho and you've got all this negativity and a bad environment and it affects everything they do. The media are saying they are recruiting poorly, and recruiting idiots. Also the owners are awful and the takeover business can't get great for the morale of the place.

They've gone through top managers since Fergie left include Moyes who got us (West Ham) multiple European placed finishes with serial bottom of the table, yo yo club West Ham, and a EUROPEAN Cup, Mourinho, one of the best ever, Van Gaal, one of the best ever, and now a top young manager and they still can't make it work.

In short, Man Utd doesn't seem like a great place to play football right now. I don't think Pep could get them playing well.

victorludorum · September 2023

How many of the current Man Utd first 11 are players that Ten Hag bought?

TTony · September 2023

victorludorum said:

How many of the current Man Utd first 11 are players that Ten Hag bought?

There aren’t many clubs where the manager “buys” the players. They’ll have a voice in the decision, but it’ll be a committee decision on who gets bought, or sold. As the club gets bigger, the committee gets bigger.

The manager can influence that committee, but primarily his job is to work with what he’s got in the squad.

Ten Hag has many years of haphazard and inconsistent recruitment and player-management to deal with, within the other issues of an (apparently) crumbling stadium and sub (today’s-best) standard training facilities. It looked like he was getting to grips with it last season, but perhaps that was more of a facade, exposed by issues with Maguire, Greenwood, Sancho, Antony and who-knows who-else behind the scenes.

guitars4you · September 2023

TTony said:. It looked like he was getting to grips with it last season, but perhaps that was more of a facade, exposed by issues with Maguire, Greenwood, Sancho, Antony and who-knows who-else behind the scenes.

When you look at the final league table last season you’d say progress - But in part how much of that was down to serious underachievement by Liverpool Chelsea and Spurs

Yes there was improvement based on the season before but Man U barely took any away points from the clubs in the top half of the table- Think it was 1 point

guitars4you · September 2023

Never easy to win at Millwall - Or to come home without bruised knuckles - 3 goals all on the counter attack and a clean sheet is more than fine - Piroe looks to be a great buy and surprised he hasn't moved up yet to the PL (fingers crossed he'll be there soon - in a white shirt)

victorludorum · September 2023

https://thehardtackle.com/reactions/erik-ten-hag-insists-he-has-total-control-over-transfers/

Philly_Q · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Never easy to win at Millwall - Or to come home without bruised knuckles - 3 goals all on the counter attack and a clean sheet is more than fine - Piroe looks to be a great buy and surprised he hasn't moved up yet to the PL (fingers crossed he'll be there soon - in a white shirt)

I wish he was still in another white shirt. His departure looks to be one of the factors which is going to get Swansea relegated this season.

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Ex-Liverpool star John Barnes owes £238k in tax

Ex-Liverpool star John Barnes owes £238k in tax

Ex-Liverpool star John Barnes owes £238k in tax