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  • TeleMasterTeleMaster Frets: 9175
    edited July 2023
    There are people who value trophies and there are people who value records.

    Personally, I value trophies more.  Give me a Champion's League winner's medal, in any team, over any kind of stats. 
    In general me too. But a league goal scoring record in a top three league is a huge achievement and it's likely to stand for a long time. If I had to choose between a Champions League medal or a record like that it I would probably go for the Champions League. But a single league title... I'm not so sure.

    The gamble is that Haaland stays at City and beats it 4 years after Kane sets the record. Then you'd take the league title wouldn't you. lol 
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader
    There are people who value trophies and there are people who value records.

    Personally, I value trophies more.  Give me a Champion's League winner's medal, in any team, over any kind of stats. 
    In general me too. But a league goal scoring record in a top three league is a huge achievement and it's likely to stand for a long time. If I had to choose between a Champions League medal or a record like that it I would probably go for the Champions League. But a single league title... I'm not so sure.

    The gamble is that Haaland stays at City and beats it 4 years after Kane sets the record. Then you'd take the league title wouldn't you. lol 
    Scott Carson has 2 CL medal's - for barely playing a game for either LFC or Man City - So what credibility is there in that - More of a devil's advocate statement/question 
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  • RaymondLinRaymondLin Frets: 11229
    But Kane already has the credibility, it's not like people wouldn't understand him going to a club with a better chance of trophies.  He has given Spurs all he had, his prime years too.

    To think he shouldn't go after trophies after all he's done seems weird to me.
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  • TeleMasterTeleMaster Frets: 9175
    edited July 2023
    But Kane already has the credibility, it's not like people wouldn't understand him going to a club with a better chance of trophies.  He has given Spurs all he had, his prime years too.

    To think he shouldn't go after trophies after all he's done seems weird to me.
    To some people, but to others he's scored goals but never won a single trophy so he will never be considered in the same breath as those who have, so he's ultimately just an also ran. The whole conversation is about how he can silence those people by going somewhere and winning stuff so there's definitely a question mark hanging over him but yes, I agree he should go for trophies, but he should probably pick an elite league and team and avoid the German league unless he seriously thinks that Bayern can deliver a Champions League. Ultimately people will find a reason to dislike him whether he plays for Spurs or not. 

    There are people who value trophies and there are people who value records.

    Personally, I value trophies more.  Give me a Champion's League winner's medal, in any team, over any kind of stats. 
    In general me too. But a league goal scoring record in a top three league is a huge achievement and it's likely to stand for a long time. If I had to choose between a Champions League medal or a record like that it I would probably go for the Champions League. But a single league title... I'm not so sure.

    The gamble is that Haaland stays at City and beats it 4 years after Kane sets the record. Then you'd take the league title wouldn't you. lol 
    Scott Carson has 2 CL medal's - for barely playing a game for either LFC or Man City - So what credibility is there in that - More of a devil's advocate statement/question 
    I guess none. But if you're front and centre, playing most of the games it's different to being a sub that never came on. 
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  • Philly_QPhilly_Q Frets: 20197
    The mentality of most footballers (and ex-footballer pundits) seems to be that it's a team game and it's all about winning trophies.

    If I was Harry Kane I would want the Premier League scoring record.  But I'm neither a footballer nor any kind of team player.
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader
    Can we come up with any other 'stalwart' in the PL era who has never won a trophy - UK player or overseas - Must have had at least a 5 year PL career, probably 10, to match that of Kane 

    Fully understand Levy wanting Kane to stay at Spurs - But equally he can't afford for Kane to walk away on a freebie in 12 months time - But can I assume Levy has told Kane that there is no way he will sell him to Man U 
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader

    Kane was never coming to Man U.  Beyern will pay close to £100 million, Levy would have made United pay significantly more and we A) can not afford that price and can not justify over £100 million on a player who would not have long term value.

    Mbappe no chance.  Saudi have just bid £250+million which is more than all the Man U transfer budget.  

    Plus the last thing we need is a player like Mbappe.  Supremely talented but not exactly a team player.

    Hojlund fits the ETH far better.  Coachable potential, physical and dynamic.  In budget.
    A gamble but fits in with the team rebuild, younger hungry players, rather than buying superstars with their egos.  (Not that you would get that with Kane, in a footballing only sense of course he would be perfect).


    Agree with so much of this - A team is better with 11 players working in unison, rather than a bunch of talented individuals with massive ego's that won't fit thru' the door 
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 26143
    Kane has already got the all-time scoring records for club & country.  If he stays as Spurs, he'll have the league all-time too.  He'll also earn way more at Spurs than Bayern Munich.

    Would any player ever - EVER - have all 3 records again?  Can't see it ...

    Balance that achievement against winning a couple of cups in Germany.

    (Not sure that Bayern are the force that they were a couple of seasons ago, so don't think that they'll win CL.)

    None of us know his motivations, so we're all guessing.  But that's what his choice comes down to.
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  • RaymondLinRaymondLin Frets: 11229
    edited July 2023
    I was going to say Vinnie Jones but even he won the FA Cup.

    The other one i can think of is Leon Osman, he was at Everton for 16 seasons.  There are actually lots of Everton players too in the era post Joe Royal and their FA cup win and won nothing.  Oh, and Nolan at West Ham as well?

    What about Rob Lee at Newcastle? 10 years, won nothing.

    Kane isn't going to be forgotten if he doesn't beat Shearer's record, but he could retire as 3rd top PL scorer behind Haaland & Shearer in 10 years 
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 26143

    Kane isn't going to be forgotten if he doesn't beat Shearer's record, but he could retire as 3rd top PL scorer behind Haaland & Shearer in 10 years  
    I'd guess Haaland will give ManC a couple motd seasons, before heading off to Madrid, before heading off to Saudi (or wherever the end-of-career money is by then).

    He'll end up with cupboards full of trinkets, but no long-term records.
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  • MrSwansonMrSwanson Frets: 426
    It's no secret that City is only a stopover before Haaland heads to Madrid.
    View my trading feedback here: http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/58681/
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  • RaymondLinRaymondLin Frets: 11229
    TTony said:

    Kane isn't going to be forgotten if he doesn't beat Shearer's record, but he could retire as 3rd top PL scorer behind Haaland & Shearer in 10 years  
    I'd guess Haaland will give ManC a couple motd seasons, before heading off to Madrid, before heading off to Saudi (or wherever the end-of-career money is by then).

    He'll end up with cupboards full of trinkets, but no long-term records.
    errrrrrr.  he has Broken a LOT of records, I am sure one of these will be long term, especially the one that held since 1931.


    Most goals in first five Premier League appearances - 9


    Most Premier League goals in August - 9


    Fastest player to reach 10 Premier League goals - 6 games


    First City player to score on Premier League and Champions League debut


    Youngest player to score 25 Champions League goals


    First player to score in first four Premier League away games


    Most goals in opening seven Premier League games - 11


    First player in the Premier League to score three consecutive hat-tricks in home matches


    Fastest player to score three Premier League hat-tricks - 8


    Most goals in first eight Premier League games - 14


    First player to have five goal involvements in a Manchester derby


    First player to score in seven successive Premier League games for City


    Fastest player to score 20 goals in a Premier League season - 14 games


    First player to score 20 Premier League goals before January


    Fastest player to reach 25 goals under Guardiola - 20 games


    Most Premier League goals in a season under Guardiola - 35


    Fastest player to score four Premier League hat-tricks - 19


    Fastest player to score 25 Premier League goals - 19


    Most home goals in a single Premier League season - 22


    Most goals by a City player in a single Premier League campaign - 35


    Youngest player to score 30 goals in the Champions League


    Most goals scored in all competitions by a Premier League player in a single season - 51

    Most goals by a Premier League player in a 38-game season


    Most Champions League goals scored in a single season by a player at an English club - 12


    First top-flight player to score 50 goals in a season since 1931


    Most Premier League goals scored in a single season - 35


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  • Philly_QPhilly_Q Frets: 20197
    TTony said:
    I'd guess Haaland will give ManC a couple motd seasons
    Now there's a weird typo!  But quite appropriate.
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 26143
    You misunderstood @RaymondLin ;

    I didn't mean long-standing records, I meant records like Kane's that would require long-term commitment to a club / league.

    It's pretty obvious that Haaland, playing for ManC, will break plenty of "in a season" type records.
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 27656
    TTony said:

    Kane isn't going to be forgotten if he doesn't beat Shearer's record, but he could retire as 3rd top PL scorer behind Haaland & Shearer in 10 years  
    I'd guess Haaland will give ManC a couple motd seasons, before heading off to Madrid, before heading off to Saudi (or wherever the end-of-career money is by then).

    He'll end up with cupboards full of trinkets, but no long-term records.
    errrrrrr.  he has Broken a LOT of records, I am sure one of these will be long term, especially the one that held since 1931.


    Most goals in first five Premier League appearances - 9


    Most Premier League goals in August - 9


    Fastest player to reach 10 Premier League goals - 6 games


    First City player to score on Premier League and Champions League debut


    Youngest player to score 25 Champions League goals


    First player to score in first four Premier League away games


    Most goals in opening seven Premier League games - 11


    First player in the Premier League to score three consecutive hat-tricks in home matches


    Fastest player to score three Premier League hat-tricks - 8


    Most goals in first eight Premier League games - 14


    First player to have five goal involvements in a Manchester derby


    First player to score in seven successive Premier League games for City


    Fastest player to score 20 goals in a Premier League season - 14 games


    First player to score 20 Premier League goals before January


    Fastest player to reach 25 goals under Guardiola - 20 games


    Most Premier League goals in a season under Guardiola - 35


    Fastest player to score four Premier League hat-tricks - 19


    Fastest player to score 25 Premier League goals - 19


    Most home goals in a single Premier League season - 22


    Most goals by a City player in a single Premier League campaign - 35


    Youngest player to score 30 goals in the Champions League


    Most goals scored in all competitions by a Premier League player in a single season - 51

    Most goals by a Premier League player in a 38-game season


    Most Champions League goals scored in a single season by a player at an English club - 12


    First top-flight player to score 50 goals in a season since 1931


    Most Premier League goals scored in a single season - 35


    Yeah, but other than that, what's he done really?
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  • RaymondLinRaymondLin Frets: 11229
    edited July 2023
    TTony said:
    You misunderstood @RaymondLin ;;;

    I didn't mean long-standing records, I meant records like Kane's that would require long-term commitment to a club / league.

    It's pretty obvious that Haaland, playing for ManC, will break plenty of "in a season" type records.
    Kane already has that, if he leave now, no one can take away his scoring record at the club for example.  I am not sure any player sets out their career to be "Longest serving player at X club" as their goal.  They might want to say "I want to play for Manchester United when i grow up". or "I want to win the world cup".

    "I want to make 500 league appearance for Derby County!" I can't imagine any 8 year old saying that or an 18 year old for that matter.
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 27656
    If you win a trophy, it's yours for life. If you get a record, it's yours until someone else breaks it. your name stays permanently in the history books though. At the end of the day he would be remembered forever by football fans if he was top scorer, you don't get that legendary status with a few Bundesliga medals in your bedroom drawer. I would say that the first gives you honour amongst all fans, the second gives you a personal satisfaction but less individual recognition

    Personally I'd prefer to be the English all time top goalscorer than win a few medals with a German team, but at the end of the day it is his choice. I'd prefer to see him stay in the Prem but it is looking unlikely. 
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 26143

    "I want to make 500 league appearance for Derby County!" I can't imagine any 8 year old saying that or an 18 year old for that matter.
    No sure where Derby County has come from, nor what point you’re making, other than you lack imagination.
    ;)
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  • HattigolHattigol Frets: 8170
    edited July 2023
    Real shame IMHO that he isn't heading to United. The deal would work on many levels.

    Good for Spurs - Levy knows we are stupid enough to pay more than anyone else. Not selling him and seeing him leave for free next season is financially crackers.

    Good for Kane - stays in the PL. Gets a chance to break dreary Shearer's record. Plus he is exactly what United need - fans know this and he'd be an instant hero. Plus he'd obviously be happy with a move to Manchester as shown be his angling to join city previously.

    Good for United - the lack of striking cover has been an issue for years.

    Looks like the Bayern deal is close to done though. When Fabrizio Romano talks about a deal, you know it is happening....
    "Anybody can play. The note is only 20%. The attitude of the motherf*cker who plays it is  80%" - Miles Davis
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  • bloodandtearsbloodandtears Frets: 1591
    this Kane talk is sooooooo boring now.. get on with it already.... sign or sod off..
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • UnclePsychosisUnclePsychosis Frets: 12324
    Kane is hugely overrated.

    In twenty years time when we're talking about the great strikers of the past he'll be a footnote and nowhere near the centre of the conversation. 
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader
    TTony said:
    You misunderstood @RaymondLin ;;;

    I didn't mean long-standing records, I meant records like Kane's that would require long-term commitment to a club / league.

    It's pretty obvious that Haaland, playing for ManC, will break plenty of "in a season" type records.
    Kane already has that, if he leave now, no one can take away his scoring record at the club for example.  I am not sure any player sets out their career to be "Longest serving player at X club" as their goal.  They might want to say "I want to play for Manchester United when i grow up". or "I want to win the world cup".

    "I want to make 5league appearance for Derby County!" I can't imagine any 8 year old saying that or an 18 year old for that matter.
    FTFY 
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 26143
    Kane is hugely overrated.

    In twenty years time when we're talking about the great strikers of the past he'll be a footnote and nowhere near the centre of the conversation. 
    Stimme voll und ganz zu.

    Jeder, der ihn kaufen würde, wäre dumm.


    (It can't hurt, right?)
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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 4697
    Kane needs 48 to pass Shearer, so more than one season.

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  • HattigolHattigol Frets: 8170
    Kane is hugely overrated.

    In twenty years time when we're talking about the great strikers of the past he'll be a footnote and nowhere near the centre of the conversation. 
    I was going to write a long response but will settle for the word 'bollocks'.
    "Anybody can play. The note is only 20%. The attitude of the motherf*cker who plays it is  80%" - Miles Davis
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  • TeleMasterTeleMaster Frets: 9175
    edited July 2023
    Kane is hugely overrated.

    In twenty years time when we're talking about the great strikers of the past he'll be a footnote and nowhere near the centre of the conversation. 
    From a West Ham fan, I think he's actually underrated. He is the complete striker. He tracks back, assists well, nearly always makes the right decision, works hard, scores 30 goals a season in successive defensive Spurs teams (Jose, Conte).

    I think that he would get into any team in the world and even with Haaland at Man City, I think Kane could start ahead of him and he'd score more goals than Haaland, or Pep would just figure out a system for both of them and they'd be a super pairing like we used to have in the 90's (SAS, RAF, Cole &, Yorke).

    The only question for me is whether he can actually pull it off in the most demanding of games, seeing as he went missing in the CL final and missed a penalty against France last year, but... I think that's reaching really.

    If he wins nothing and doesn't break the record then he may well be talked about like that, although I don't think so as he's England's top goalscorer, but that may mean he is ignored outside of the UK. But if he wins some stuff and/or breaks that record I think that will silence the doubters.

    I think he's as good as anyone in the world in that position/role. 
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader
    Why is the EFL so far ahead of the PL in many instances ? - No need to stay why as we all assume the same answer

    Time added on in the EFL will now be exactly that of time lost - As per the recent World Cup - Be it injury, goal celebration, substitutions, red cards, penalties etc - The clock will stop and start as required - So not a pre-determined amount of time that never bears resemblance to the  'delay'

    Other issues includes - In addition, to aid the new time keeping approach, players who require assessment on the pitch for a potential injury will be required to receive treatment off the pitch, unless:
    • A goalkeeper is injured.
    • A goalkeeper and an outfield player have collided and need attention.
    • Players from the same team have collided and need attention.
    • A severe injury has occurred.
    • A player is injured as the result of a physical offence for which the opponent is cautioned or sent off (e.g. reckless or serious foul challenge), if the assessment/treatment is completed quickly.
    • A penalty has been awarded and the injured player will be the taker.

    When play restarts a player will not be allowed to re-enter the pitch for a minimum of 30 seconds, under the new rules.

    And in circumstances where a player declines help from a physio, if a team-mate clearly delays or refuses to re-start the game, that team-mate will be given a yellow card. The EFL says this will "promote player safety" and act as a deterrent to players who request attention as a tactic to waste time or break the momentum of the game.

    No towels to dry the ball for a throw in

    Points deductions for financial fair play issues - Has any PL ever seen this other than Portsmouth and I recall by then they were already in admin

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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader
    So the start of the new season is nearly with us - So what are your predictions/expectations in the PL

    Hard to bet against Man City winning the PL again - So then IMO a fight for 2nd, 3rd, 4th between Man U, LFC and Arsenal - Not sure which order they will finish - Man U should be looking for further improvements under Ten Haag - Maybe their final position, last season, was a touch faltering thanks to a poor season by LFC and Chelsea, but they certainly moved up a gear

    Think Newcastle will struggle to make the top 4, as this coming season they need to compete in the CL as well, so a new challenge for them - They should still be part of an elite of 7 clubs 

    Spurs - You tell me - I suspect even with/without Harry, they will probably be the weakest of the top 7 elite clubs next season

    Chelsea - Poch has a big challenge on his hands trying to make a team out of individuals - I think on the day they will be capable of beating any team - But don't feel they will acquire the consistency this coming season for a top 4 position - But suspect some exciting performances from them

    Then who will be the Brentford, Brighton, Fulham of the last season - ie the best of the rest - Not part of the established elite but well clear of the 'survivors' last season - 2/3 years ago Wolves and West Ham were part of this mix - I expect Villa to be part of the mix this season - I can't see Villa making the top 4, but expect them to be pushing for UEFA places

    Then the survival positions - Will be hard to see much difference this season compared to last season with Burnley, Luton and Sheff U joining the PL - Of the new comers I suspect Burnley will be better equipped to avoid relegation compared to Luton and probably Sheff U

    Maybe a pity that the PL is kind of predictable in so many ways - As an overview, of the 38 matches, 14 will be against the elite clubs, so hard to pick up many/any points - That leaves 24 matches, against 'your competitors' to acquire around 40 points for survival
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  • TTonyTTony Frets: 26143

    Maybe a pity that the PL is kind of predictable in so many ways - As an overview, of the 38 matches, 14 will be against the elite clubs, so hard to pick up many/any points - That leaves 24 matches, against 'your competitors' to acquire around 40 points for survival

    I think this season is less predictable in many ways.

    I can't see Liverpool or Chelsea having such a bad season again.  Villa looked very promising at times last season, ditto Brighton.  Spurs can't be as bad again (yes, I'm ever hopeful, though that's obviously highly dependant on Harry ... but I've been right in my predictions re his situation thus far. ;). ).

    Villa/Brighton (and Brentford) demonstrated that its possible for one of the less obvious teams to get up there towards / into the top6, so there could well be someone else who does likewise next season, though I can't see an obvious candidate.

    So although ManC are probably favourites, there should be a lot of strong competition if they lose a few, and certainly a lot of competition for the top4/6 places.  ManC, ManU, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea probably all in with a shout for the title if they can start strongly and build some confidence, with Villa, Newcastle, Spurs, Brighton then also competing for top4/6.

    Going down?
    Luton are the obvious choice, but then almost any of the rest could feasibly join them.  It'll be hard for Burnley and SheffU to establish themselves against the other mid-tablers (Fulham, Wolves, Bournemouth, Palace), but realistically a bad run for any of those with the loss of confidence and inevitable dumping of manager could put them in the bottom 3.  And has anything changed at Everton since last season (though if Dele gets back to doing what he's capable of, that'd be their best signing in years!)?  

    Which leaves Forest ... who knows!
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  • mikeyrob73mikeyrob73 Frets: 4537
    TTony said:

    Maybe a pity that the PL is kind of predictable in so many ways - As an overview, of the 38 matches, 14 will be against the elite clubs, so hard to pick up many/any points - That leaves 24 matches, against 'your competitors' to acquire around 40 points for survival

    I think this season is less predictable in many ways.

    I can't see Liverpool or Chelsea having such a bad season again.  Villa looked very promising at times last season, ditto Brighton.  Spurs can't be as bad again (yes, I'm ever hopeful, though that's obviously highly dependant on Harry ... but I've been right in my predictions re his situation thus far. ;). ).

    Villa/Brighton (and Brentford) demonstrated that its possible for one of the less obvious teams to get up there towards / into the top6, so there could well be someone else who does likewise next season, though I can't see an obvious candidate.

    So although ManC are probably favourites, there should be a lot of strong competition if they lose a few, and certainly a lot of competition for the top4/6 places.  ManC, ManU, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea probably all in with a shout for the title if they can start strongly and build some confidence, with Villa, Newcastle, Spurs, Brighton then also competing for top4/6.

    Going down?
    Luton are the obvious choice, but then almost any of the rest could feasibly join them.  It'll be hard for Burnley and SheffU to establish themselves against the other mid-tablers (Fulham, Wolves, Bournemouth, Palace), but realistically a bad run for any of those with the loss of confidence and inevitable dumping of manager could put them in the bottom 3.  And has anything changed at Everton since last season (though if Dele gets back to doing what he's capable of, that'd be their best signing in years!)?  

    Which leaves Forest ... who knows!
    Unless Everton stop placing faith in DCL as their main striker i think we will struggle again. And as for Dele, as much as i feel for the lad, he is done , i cant ever see him getting back to even 75% of the player he was. 
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