The Football Thread.

tony99 · May 2023

Rocker said:

I don’t understand the problem with the owner taking his profits from his investment. If he had opened a hardware store who complains if his investment makes him a lot of money. The shops customers might complain or more likely go elsewhere for their purchases. In professional sport, fans are actually customers. The Man Us, Liverpools etc might have started up as local members football clubs around a century ago, but all has changed in the meantime. The club might have the same name, play on the same ground but now it is seriously big business. The local connection is long broken, the owners could be Arabs, American or wherever there is sufficient money to buy the club. As long as customers (sorry, fans) pay at the turnstiles, who is the criticism aimed at?

It is tradition to support the local club, it is just that local club is now anything but local. It is a business.

Liverpool didn't start up as a local members football club, far from it.

TeleMaster · May 2023

Rocker said:

It is tradition to support the local club, it is just that local club is now anything but local. It is a business.

To the owners, to you maybe, but not to us. These owners are temporary custodians and it's our club, not theirs. If you rinse the club and take our money and don't invest properly in the facilities, the stadium, the team and then make yourself and your shareholders rich you can get lost.

TTony · May 2023

TeleMaster said:

Rocker said:

It is tradition to support the local club, it is just that local club is now anything but local. It is a business.
To the owners, to you maybe, but not to us. These owners are temporary custodians and it's our club, not theirs. If you rinse the club and take our money and don't invest properly in the facilities, the stadium, the team and then make yourself and your shareholders rich you can get lost.

That's the old, traditional, romantic view ...

Nowadays football clubs - at least the PL and larger / more ambitious lower division clubs - are primarily money-making opportunities for someone who's got loadsa money and wants a few loadsa more.

Thinking as I type, that's not entirely fair. I doubt the Saudis/Qataris (etc) are in it for the money, club ownership serves a different purpose for them which at least makes the money-makers look honest.

But, anyways, congrats due to Sheff Weds who certainly took the hard route through their playoffs. I remember watching them on TV (must have been FA Cup) during the season and thinking that they were playing good football, and playing it well. Wouldn't be surprised to see them up towards the top of the Championship next season.

There's a sleeping giant club ....

axisus · May 2023

Rocker said:

I don’t understand the problem with the owner taking his profits from his investment.

You are missing the point completely here if you are talking about Man U, it’s not about the Glazers taking profits, they put all of their personal debt onto the club, effectively money they used to pay for Man U. They severely damaged the club from the outset.

thecolourbox · May 2023

THERE'S ONLY ONE BIG DAVE

Congrats to Sheff We'd, and of course to Carlisle and Luton. I bet that open top bus celebration was epic

tony99 · May 2023

29th of May today.

Thoughts to the many who lost their lives at the European Cup Final back in 1985.

TeleMaster · May 2023

TTony said:

TeleMaster said:

Rocker said:

It is tradition to support the local club, it is just that local club is now anything but local. It is a business.
To the owners, to you maybe, but not to us. These owners are temporary custodians and it's our club, not theirs. If you rinse the club and take our money and don't invest properly in the facilities, the stadium, the team and then make yourself and your shareholders rich you can get lost.

That's the old, traditional, romantic view ...

You can call me an old romantic then, I guess.

They get hounded out eventually if they aren't living up to the expectation. Look at the Glazers, Ashley, Moshiri. There's only so much vitriol they can take.

axisus · May 2023

guitars4you said:

axisus said:

Fantastic scenes in Luton today for the open top bus! Amazing atmosphere, many 1000s of people out, young and old, all races (Luton is a very multi-ethnic town). I think that this is something that towns maybe appreciate more than the 'big' clubs. The whole town seems to come together, and it's a massive boost for local economy. Go Luton!!!!!!!!!

heard they played 'bring me sunshine'

They did indeed. Hopefully Eric is smiling up there. I loved the way he used to get Luton into the odd Morcambe & Wise sketch.

Image: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KPL2Uwhgj5w/hqdefault.jpg

rlw · May 2023

Rocker said:

I don’t understand the problem with the owner taking his profits from his investment. If he had opened a hardware store who complains if his investment makes him a lot of money. The shops customers might complain or more likely go elsewhere for their purchases. In professional sport, fans are actually customers. The Man Us, Liverpools etc might have started up as local members football clubs around a century ago, but all has changed in the meantime. The club might have the same name, play on the same ground but now it is seriously big business. The local connection is long broken, the owners could be Arabs, American or wherever there is sufficient money to buy the club. As long as customers (sorry, fans) pay at the turnstiles, who is the criticism aimed at?

It is tradition to support the local club, it is just that local club is now anything but local. It is a business.

The issue is that the new owners borrow money to buy the club; then, rather than repay the debt over a period of time they take the sum out of the club immediately, leaving it with a serious liabilty, It happens with so many businesses and so many of them fold when all the assets have been stripped out and there is no hope of a profit being made.

TeleMaster · May 2023

axisus said:

Fantastic scenes in Luton today for the open top bus! Amazing atmosphere, many 1000s of people out, young and old, all races (Luton is a very multi-ethnic town). I think that this is something that towns maybe appreciate more than the 'big' clubs. The whole town seems to come together, and it's a massive boost for local economy. Go Luton!!!!!!!!!

Amazing!!! I hope we have the same opportunity next week after we stuff Fiorentina!!!! (Gonna be a hard game).

axisus · May 2023

I was disappointed to see Bayern win the Bundesliga again on the last day. I think that's 11 titles in a row? That is not good for any league, I hate the thought of the Prem going that way.

thecolourbox · May 2023

I suppose at least Dortmund took it to the last day, and only lost on goal difference - considering they sold their star striker last summer they've done pretty well and hopefully set themselves up for another good challenge next year?

TeleMaster · May 2023

axisus said:

I was disappointed to see Bayern win the Bundesliga again on the last day. I think that's 11 titles in a row? That is not good for any league, I hate the thought of the Prem going that way.

Yea it would suck. It has been very competitive in any case for the last few years up until the final couple of weeks, but it would be bad if City continue to dominate in the end regardless. I see Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd being much better next year. If Chelsea can get a striker, or convince Lukaku to play for them they'll be a force considering their squad and the inevitable £500m outlay in the summer.

Rice may also go to one of those teams and I see him instantly improving the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal. Lots of teams are in transition and I think 23/24 will be much better seasons for Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd.

guitars4you · May 2023

TeleMaster said:

axisus said:

I was disappointed to see Bayern win the Bundesliga again on the last day. I think that's 11 titles in a row? That is not good for any league, I hate the thought of the Prem going that way.

Yea it would suck. It has been very competitive in any case for the last few years up until the final couple of weeks, but it would be bad if City continue to dominate in the end regardless. I see Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd being much better next year. If Chelsea can get a striker, or convince Lukaku to play for them they'll be a force considering their squad and the inevitable £500m outlay in the summer.

Rice may also go to one of those teams and I see him instantly improving the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal. Lots of teams are in transition and I think 23/24 will be much better seasons for Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd.

I'm not so sure Chelsea can get back into the top 4 in one season under Poch - they are in to big a mess - many great players for sure, but they are not a team - I think it will take a while for Poch to assess who he can work with and who needs to go - A better season for Chelsea for sure - can't be worse as Lampard's spell converted to a full season was relegation form - the bonus for Chelsea is that they can concentrate on the PL only as no European distractions

Interesting that the press links are that Levy won't sell Kane to a PL rival - Think Levy needs to look at that again as the top 4 teams are no longer his rivals - Brighton, Fulham, Villa and Brentford are Spurs rivals at the moment - Despite all of Harry's goals, Spurs have the 2nd worse goal difference in the top 9 clubs - Will fascinating to see how stubborn Levy will be - Take a good price for him now or nothing in 12 months time - Can't see any owner/MD wishing to loose nigh on £100 million turnover

I agree Rice will improve the likes of Arsenal - He is a leader on the pitch, works and drives by example and if a team is not playing well he can grab the game and team around him to up the anti - I think the potential of Mount to Man U is different in that Mount plays well when the team plays well, but I don't see him changing the scruff or the team in the same way Rice can - Mount wants to be a glory player with flash touches etc which is fine when you are winning - I'm not saying he is not a good player, but I don't see him as influential on the game the same way that Rice can be

TeleMaster · May 2023

guitars4you said:
I'm not so sure Chelsea can get back into the top 4 in one season under Poch - they are to big a mess - many great players for sure, but they are not a team - I think it will take a while for Poch to assess who he can work with and who needs to go - A better season for Chelsea for sure - can't be worse as Lampard's spell converted to a full season was relegation form - the bonus for Chelsea is that they can concentrate on the PL only as no European distractions

I think with a good pre-season, a clear out and a couple of Poch additions they could have a good season, but I fully agree it might take them a bit longer too.

I'm not saying he is not a good player, but I don't see him as influential on the game the same way that Rice can be

You're right. They're not in the same league.

Rice was included in the OPTA team of the season. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/articles/czq8x305l2eo

When you watch him in real life he's always in the right place, rarely loses possession, constantly makes excellent interceptions, accurate long passes, the right pass, gets the team out of trouble and now he's also driving forward. He's a generational talent and personally I think that it's incredible that we have Rice and Bellingham in the same generation for England, and then you've also got Foden, Grealish, Rashford etc. And then Kane is still on top of his game, although he needs to be let loose for England a bit more. On paper this England team should win everything.

Rocker · May 2023

If the Glazers were not in football for the money, why did they buy Manchester United instead of Scunthorpe United (a team that played in the Championship a few short years ago)? And how can it be our business to know how they financed the purchase?

Fans support the team on the pitch while the owner decides what to do with the profits.

axisus · May 2023

Rocker said:

If the Glazers were not in football for the money, why did they buy Manchester United instead of Scunthorpe United (a team that played in the Championship a few short years ago)? And how can it be our business to know how they financed the purchase?

Fans support the team on the pitch while the owner decides what to do with the profits.

Once again .... we are not talking about 'the profits' here, it was more akin to asset stripping.

These are made up figures but roughly:

We will give you £2billion for Man U

OK

Hey we own you Man U! Oh by the way, you now have £2billion of debt.

TeleMaster · May 2023

Rocker said:

If the Glazers were not in football for the money, why did they buy Manchester United instead of Scunthorpe United (a team that played in the Championship a few short years ago)? And how can it be our business to know how they financed the purchase?

Fans support the team on the pitch while the owner decides what to do with the profits.

We know they're in it for the money. It's our business because these clubs are our clubs, and we give them our money and they use that money, and if they are saddling the club with loads of their own debt it's not good for anyone except them is it? These are also businesses that employ many people, if these clubs fail it can devastating for the local economy. There needs to be safeguarding and scrutiny.

Fans support the team on the pitch while the owner decides what to do with the profits.

We support the club in all aspects on and off the pitch. We should have much more of a say in how it's run. All across Europe, in Germany, Spain, Italy they have fan representation on the board to prevent stuff like this, it's only here where people speak out against their interests and become bootlickers to zillionaires who just want to rob us blind and destroy our beloved institutions. 'bUt iTs ThEiR mOnEy!'. Isn't it our money that they're using? Isn't it the money that we've invested for generations that allows them to have that platform? Shouldn't we have the right to a say?

It's OUR money, it's OUR club. Fan representation is needed for all clubs to prevent these leeches from robbing us dry and destroying our clubs.

Hattigol · May 2023

guitars4you said:

Interesting that the press links are that Levy won't sell Kane to a PL rival - Think Levy needs to look at that again as the top 4 teams are no longer his rivals - Brighton, Fulham, Villa and Brentford are Spurs rivals at the moment - Despite all of Harry's goals, Spurs have the 2nd worse goal difference in the top 9 clubs - Will fascinating to see how stubborn Levy will be - Take a good price for him now or nothing in 12 months time - Can't see any owner/MD wishing to loose nigh on £100 million turnover

That is just Levy doing Levy. Nobody in football knows more than him how to screw the best possible figure out of clubs - especially when dealing with United!

There's no better starting point for negotiations than 'he's not for sale to you'.

TTony · May 2023

guitars4you said:

Interesting that the press links are that Levy won't sell Kane to a PL rival - Think Levy needs to look at that again as the top 4 teams are no longer his rivals - Brighton, Fulham, Villa and Brentford are Spurs rivals at the moment - Despite all of Harry's goals, Spurs have the 2nd worse goal difference in the top 9 clubs - Will fascinating to see how stubborn Levy will be - Take a good price for him now or nothing in 12 months time - Can't see any owner/MD wishing to loose nigh on £100 million turnover

Regrettably, I fear that's going to be another summer saga that won't be definitively settled until the transfer window closes.

It's not black and white.

Yes, the simple decision is sell Kane now for £100m or see him leave for £0 in 12mths time, but whatever they get for him will be spent - a Kane-alike striker will cost the best part of £100m alone. An incoming replacement will have a longer contract and hence better residual value, but there's no guarantee that they'll fit into the team, score 30 goals and be instrumental in creating another 20.

Plus Spurs do NOT have a good track record of spending money well (Richarlison, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Gil, Royal, Reguilon, Bergwijn, Sessegnon).

Spurs-without-Kane = minimal chance of top4 = loss of Euro revenue in 24/5. Spurs-with-Kane is probably still an outside chance, but it's a whole lot more of a chance.

And asking how stubborn Levy is - that's not even a question!

TTony · May 2023

Rocker said:

And how can it be our business to know how they financed the purchase?

It's a matter of public record.

ManU plc have to publish their accounts. It's quite clear how Glazers financed the acquisition, and how much they've taken out of the business whilst they've owned it.

Because their approach (aka asset-stripping) has negatively impacted the club (more in terms of investment in facilities than spending on players), that's a matter of interest to all fans of the club.

RaymondLin · May 2023

Spurs without Kane would be what Chelsea was this season.

Very few goals, and without the few wins early on in the season, relegation!

guitars4you · May 2023

Hattigol said:

guitars4you said:

Interesting that the press links are that Levy won't sell Kane to a PL rival - Think Levy needs to look at that again as the top 4 teams are no longer his rivals - Brighton, Fulham, Villa and Brentford are Spurs rivals at the moment - Despite all of Harry's goals, Spurs have the 2nd worse goal difference in the top 9 clubs - Will fascinating to see how stubborn Levy will be - Take a good price for him now or nothing in 12 months time - Can't see any owner/MD wishing to loose nigh on £100 million turnover

That is just Levy doing Levy. Nobody in football knows more than him how to screw the best possible figure out of clubs - especially when dealing with United!

There's no better starting point for negotiations than 'he's not for sale to you'.

In 12 moths time even Levy won't be able to screw £1 out of Kane - Dangerous game to play

TTony · May 2023

guitars4you said:

Hattigol said:

That is just Levy doing Levy. Nobody in football knows more than him how to screw the best possible figure out of clubs - especially when dealing with United!

There's no better starting point for negotiations than 'he's not for sale to you'.

In 12 moths time even Levy won't be able to screw £1 out of Kane - Dangerous game to play

In 12 months time, Kane is another year older and less attractive to one of the leading clubs, ManU and Chelsea have both sorted out their lack-of-a-striker problem, he's another 30 goals closer to the PL all-time record, and just scored twice to win the FA Cup for Spurs.

Where would he go ???

guitars4you · May 2023

TTony said:

guitars4you said:

Interesting that the press links are that Levy won't sell Kane to a PL rival - Think Levy needs to look at that again as the top 4 teams are no longer his rivals - Brighton, Fulham, Villa and Brentford are Spurs rivals at the moment - Despite all of Harry's goals, Spurs have the 2nd worse goal difference in the top 9 clubs - Will fascinating to see how stubborn Levy will be - Take a good price for him now or nothing in 12 months time - Can't see any owner/MD wishing to loose nigh on £100 million turnover

Regrettably, I fear that's going to be another summer saga that won't be definitively settled until the transfer window closes.

It's not black and white.

Yes, the simple decision is sell Kane now for £100m or see him leave for £0 in 12mths time, but whatever they get for him will be spent - a Kane-alike striker will cost the best part of £100m alone. An incoming replacement will have a longer contract and hence better residual value, but there's no guarantee that they'll fit into the team, score 30 goals and be instrumental in creating another 20.

Plus Spurs do NOT have a good track record of spending money well (Richarlison, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Gil, Royal, Reguilon, Bergwijn, Sessegnon).

Spurs-without-Kane = minimal chance of top4 = loss of Euro revenue in 24/5. Spurs-with-Kane is probably still an outside chance, but it's a whole lot more of a chance.

And asking how stubborn Levy is - that's not even a question!

I know it is not always that easy but how about finding the next Kane from within your own ranks/academy in the same way you found Kane - Or do what many do, like Brentford and find them within the lower leagues - Spend spend spend often does not work - Look at Lukaku for proof of this, he probably represents waste of spend, time after time, more than any other striker in recent years

Shrews · May 2023

Kane to sign a new 5 year Spurs deal, 50% wage increase would be a great offer for him.

Let's face it, he's never been bothered about winning trophies before, so why start now?

I can't see him going to another Prem club. Newcastle maybe but really only if it's an extraordinary offer. At least he would get into the team there and no doubt he would be worshipped like a God.

Can't see it. New Spurs deal my prediction!

Rocker · May 2023

I don’t know what ‘asset stripping’ is but Manchester United finish third in the PL and are playing CL football next year. The team is performing well........ I need someone to clarify what it is that the Glazers stripped out and where is the problem as it has not affected the team (as far as I can see). Thanks.

joeyowen · May 2023

Rocker said:

I don’t know what ‘asset stripping’ is but Manchester United finish third in the PL and are playing CL football next year. The team is performing well........ I need someone to clarify what it is that the Glazers stripped out and where is the problem as it has not affected the team (as far as I can see). Thanks.

It's quite complicated, as you either get massive bias from fans who hate the Glazers, or massive bias from fans who don't support them. Generally speaking this makes the data hard.

In short, they purchased the club with money they didn't really have, then put all the debt on the club. They never invested in the general infrastructure. So you have a club now billion+ in debt, with a leaking stadium, out of date training facilities, lack of correct staff in many areas (can go into more detail but it's boring ha). Easiest example: Lukaku gains lots of weight at the club, because we didn't have anyone to identify a disorder he had. It was discovering within weeks at his next club.

'We' didn't have a women's team, YouTube channel, Sports Physiatrist etc.. etc..

Now factor in they take massssive dividend payments each year. So gave the club massive debt, didn't invest, took lots of money.

Yes we have CL football, the team are doing great. However, Fergie was amazing at papering over cracks. It is clear to everyone the massive massive drop the club took after he left. This was not just down to one person leaving his role (2 if you count Gill).

Look at so many other clubs in the last few years. City rebuilt half of Manchester, Arsenal/Spurs new stadiums, Anfield extended. We have a stadium that had to close sections due to leaks that lasted years.

That wasn't too short sorry...

TTony · May 2023

Shrews said:

Kane to sign a new 5 year Spurs deal, 50% wage increase would be a great offer for him.

Let's face it, he's never been bothered about winning trophies before, so why start now?

I can't see him going to another Prem club. Newcastle maybe but really only if it's an extraordinary offer. At least he would get into the team there and no doubt he would be worshipped like a God.

Can't see it. New Spurs deal my prediction!

That was my thinking, a month or two back.

And it'll remain my hope until there's an official announcement on the THFC website to the contrary (ie ignoring all the clickbait speculation over the next few months).

TTony · May 2023

Rocker said:

I don’t know what ‘asset stripping’ is

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