R8 Peach Deal

Twinfan · November 2018

We're after evidence to back up your price claims, that's all, just for our own interest. You're not stating an opinion, you're claiming price/sale facts. If you can't or won't provide evidence of them that's fine, but they're then just internet hearsay.

T'was always thus!

roberty · November 2018

dbphoto said:

£4299 was the original RRP for the 2017 R8's I think.

How many actually sold at that price though I wonder?

and I have said it before, but I will say it again, for me a used one should be no more than £2k, meaning a 20% saving on what they were sold at, and will be again soon.

Gibson's pricing model seems to be to introduce each model year at a high price and then gradually reduce them. That way they can sell to more people's budgets I suppose. The R8 blow out was due to Chapter 11 and the need to liquidate some assets

danishbacon · November 2018

Fortheloveofguitar said:

My personal opinion is exactly that., personal based on my first hand experience and interest witnessing people i know and FB sales based on the prices i quoted.

Sure thing, opinions we're all entitled to, but don't act surprised when you get asked to show more than just statements as fact.

prlgmnr · November 2018

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

crunchman · November 2018

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here - there is no argument that these are iconic guitars - but does anyone know why Gibson seems to have a warehouse full of unsold R8s? The sell-off of their 2015 models made perfect sense, but I can't understand why they are selling off R8s and R9s when they must be Gibson's most sought after models - as this 132 page thread proves!

In the run up to the chapter 11 "bankruptcy" their only hope to right the ship was to sell very large numbers of guitars - so they built very large numbers. They actually built a lot more than they could sell at the full RRP. The high RRP probably also helped their finances look better as they would have looked like a valuable asset at full price.

The good news for us is that they seem to have taken the decision to offload the surplus in the UK market, rather than depress prices in the US market.

danishbacon · November 2018

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

There we go, the elusive £1500 R8's are upon us.

crunchman · November 2018

danishbacon said:

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

There we go, the elusive £1500 R8's are upon us.

The older ones (pre 2013?) with the sheath around the truss rod don't seem to fetch quite as much. £1500 is still a very good price for the buyer though. I sold my 2010 in Charlie Chandler's at the beginning of the year. Charlie got £2500 for it. Even after commission I got more than £2k.

I would think that £1700 would be the absolute floor for a post 2013 R8, unless there are real issues like a headstock break.

Three-ColourSunburst · November 2018

crunchman said:

In the run up to the chapter 11 "bankruptcy" their only hope to right the ship was to sell very large numbers of guitars - so they built very large numbers. They actually built a lot more than they could sell at the full RRP. The high RRP probably also helped their finances look better as they would have looked like a valuable asset at full price.

So, this wasn't just a case of them building more than they could sell due to overpricing or bad stock control, it was deliberate strategy?

I.e. build lots of 'Rs', which have a high perceived value, but very probably cost little more to build than a Standard. Then release them at a price that would see them fly off the shelves, so realising the sort of profit margin and quick return that otherwise would have required them to build a similar number of Standards, selling them all both at full retail and in a similar time frame. (Obviously a much harder task.)

If that is what they did, it was pretty clever, even if it must inevitably have had a negative effect on the perceived value of 'R' models, as well as depreciating their value on the used market, which much have upset quite a few people who bought at or near full retail.

terada · November 2018

Three-ColourSunburst said:

crunchman said:

In the run up to the chapter 11 "bankruptcy" their only hope to right the ship was to sell very large numbers of guitars - so they built very large numbers. They actually built a lot more than they could sell at the full RRP. The high RRP probably also helped their finances look better as they would have looked like a valuable asset at full price.

So, this wasn't just a case of them building more than they could sell due to overpricing or bad stock control, it was deliberate strategy?

I.e. build lots of 'Rs', which have a high perceived value, but very probably cost little more to build than a Standard. Then release them at a price that would see them fly off the shelves, so realising the sort of profit margin and quick return that otherwise would have required them to build a similar number of Standards, selling them all both at full retail and in a similar time frame. (Obviously a much harder task.)

If that is what they did, it was pretty clever, even if it must inevitably have had a negative effect on the perceived value of 'R' models, as well as depreciating their value on the used market, which much have upset quite a few people who bought at or near full retail.

Inventory is a current asset on the balance sheet, turning wood stocks into actual instruments with an inflated value boosts the net asset position of the company (depending on which method they value inventory with). Looks better but is just accounting bullsh*t.

Three-ColourSunburst · November 2018

terada said:

Inventory is a current asset on the balance sheet, turning wood stocks into actual instruments with an inflated value boosts the net asset position of the company (depending on which method they value inventory with). Looks better but is just accounting bullsh*t.

That makes sense. Thanks!

kelpbeds · November 2018

Seems like there is a lot of misinformation here about the R8 deal and why it happened. It wasn't directly because of the chapter 11 thing, more a series of circumstances and disagreement between Henry and ex custom shop head honcho Ed Wilson.
Henry decided Gibson CS weren't going to make historic les pauls.(google it)We know that a bunch of these were made in 2017 about 500 I think under the directions of Ed, not Henry. Then Ed was fired. Guess why?
All these guitars were then sat in a warehouse in Europe and Guitarguitar and Peach bought a load of them up at a reduced rate. Hence the deal.
Therefore this deal is short term and prices will go up. So for anyone getting an R8 at 2.5K it's an incredible deal and even better for those buying second hand at 2K. Great time to buy, terrible time to sell.
When prices go back to normal guess what will happen to second hand prices?
Also heard rumours that Gibson are going to change the way the custom shop makes guitars - look on google - something about just making custom orders. So therefore R8s etc.. will become worth even more.
And the R8s made in 2017 are of excellent quality because they were made under the eye of Ed not Henry.
Not sure if any of this has been mentioned before in this thread (too much to read) but just though I would clarify thing. And this info comes from someone directly involved with the custom shop. I have no direct experience of this but this is what I have heard.
So if you have an R8, hang on to it! You sell now you will lose an awful lot in future value.

Three-ColourSunburst · November 2018

kelpbeds said:

Seems like there is a lot of misinformation here about the R8 deal and why it happened. It wasn't directly because of the chapter 11 thing, more a series of circumstances and disagreement between Henry and ex custom shop head honcho Ed Wilson.
Henry decided Gibson CS weren't going to make historic les pauls.(google it)We know that a bunch of these were made in 2017 about 500 I think under the directions of Ed, not Henry. Then Ed was fired. Guess why?
All these guitars were then sat in a warehouse in Europe and Guitarguitar and Peach bought a load of them up at a reduced rate. Hence the deal.

That makes even more sense! Thanks for the insight into how these deals actually came about. Serendipity at play, at least for the lucky buyers (not for Ed Wilson and the employees of the Custom Shop).

kelpbeds · November 2018

Yeah it's interesting stuff eh! Real shame what happened there. Henry was a bit of a loose cannon from what I gather. I'm guessing it was probably his idea to put robotuners on les pauls!

roberty · November 2018

It was Peach Guitars who said that Gibson needed to free up a lot of cash very quickly, and that Gibson Europe were given permission to liquidate about 300 CS Reissues

kelpbeds · November 2018

Yep that's what I heard too. But that came about initially because of the other issue I mentioned. (AFAIK)

Hattigol · November 2018

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

Interesting use of facts.

Just looked and there were 24 completed R8 sales on Ebay. These include one at £1,500. Of the other 23, 18 sold at a price range of between £2,000 and £3,723.

So from this, you deduce that the baseline price is actually £1,500? Good work.

Keep trying to talk the market down though. I'm sure you don't really want one anyway....

Fortheloveofguitar · November 2018

Hattigol said:

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

Interesting use of facts.

Just looked and there were 24 completed R8 sales on Ebay. These include one at £1,500. Of the other 23, 18 sold at a price range of between £2,000 and £3,723.

So from this, you deduce that the baseline price is actually £1,500? Good work.

Keep trying to talk the market down though. I'm sure you don't really want one anyway....

Said the man that was himself offered a 2007 R8 at only £1700

Hattigol · November 2018

Fortheloveofguitar said:

Hattigol said:

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

Interesting use of facts.

Just looked and there were 24 completed R8 sales on Ebay. These include one at £1,500. Of the other 23, 18 sold at a price range of between £2,000 and £3,723.

So from this, you deduce that the baseline price is actually £1,500? Good work.

Keep trying to talk the market down though. I'm sure you don't really want one anyway....

Said the man that was himself offered a 2007 R8 at only £1700

Me? Was I? Did I buy it?

prlgmnr · November 2018

Hattigol said:

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

Interesting use of facts.

Just looked and there were 24 completed R8 sales on Ebay. These include one at £1,500. Of the other 23, 18 sold at a price range of between £2,000 and £3,723.

So from this, you deduce that the baseline price is actually £1,500? Good work.

Keep trying to talk the market down though. I'm sure you don't really want one anyway....

Nothing gets past you does it.

Hattigol · November 2018

prlgmnr said:

Hattigol said:

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

Interesting use of facts.

Just looked and there were 24 completed R8 sales on Ebay. These include one at £1,500. Of the other 23, 18 sold at a price range of between £2,000 and £3,723.

So from this, you deduce that the baseline price is actually £1,500? Good work.

Keep trying to talk the market down though. I'm sure you don't really want one anyway....

Nothing gets past you does it.

It's not hard to do a search on Ebay for Les Paul R8 and tick the box for completed items.

My post above is what it throws up. Not rocket science.

stephen.wood125 · November 2018

I took "baseline" as lowest not average.

prlgmnr · November 2018

Hattigol said:
It's not hard to do a search on Ebay for Les Paul R8 and tick the box for completed items.

My post above is what it throws up. Not rocket science.

This must be what it felt like bowling at Geoffrey Boycott for two days while he steadily worked up to a 50.

Fortheloveofguitar · November 2018

Hattigol said:

Fortheloveofguitar said:

Hattigol said:

prlgmnr said:

There's (a 2011) one sold on eBay for £1500, so that's that definitively established as the baseline price for now.

Interesting use of facts.

Just looked and there were 24 completed R8 sales on Ebay. These include one at £1,500. Of the other 23, 18 sold at a price range of between £2,000 and £3,723.

So from this, you deduce that the baseline price is actually £1,500? Good work.

Keep trying to talk the market down though. I'm sure you don't really want one anyway....

Said the man that was himself offered a 2007 R8 at only £1700

Me? Was I? Did I buy it?

Doesn’t matter if you bought it or not. It’s the price that’s relevant

roberty · November 2018

..kelpbeds said:

Yep that's what I heard too. But that came about initially because of the other issue I mentioned. (AFAIK)

Yes thanks for sharing, interesting stuff. Interesting for us, at least!

iseverynamegone · November 2018

To be fair to this thread it normally takes less than 4000 posts for a topic to get a bit narcky.

TeleMaster · November 2018

@kelpbeds this makes sense. The argument that they made loads to sell cheap to get as much money as quickly as possible doesn’t hold up as these are all 2017 models!

Thanks for the info!

crunchman · November 2018

TeleMaster said:

@kelpbeds this makes sense. The argument that they made loads to sell cheap to get as much money as quickly as possible doesn’t hold up as these are all 2017 models!

Thanks for the info!

Remember they entered bankruptcy in early 2018.

roberty · November 2018

iseverynamegone said:

To be fair to this thread it normally takes less than 4000 posts for a topic to get a bit narcky.

Actually no, it takes less than 2000. I don't know what you're trying to imply ;-)

JerkMoans · November 2018

roberty said:

iseverynamegone said:

To be fair to this thread it normally takes less than 4000 posts for a topic to get a bit narcky.

Actually no, it takes less than 2000. I don't know what you're trying to imply ;-)

IMHO it takes about 3

Chalky · November 2018

The story about "Ed and Henry" sounds daft but is irrelevant. They've just pumped "300 CS Reissues" into the market at £2.5k, which will depress the price from the previous higher price. It also means an extra 300 guitars moved into the secondhand market. The idea that their value will increase only holds if you believe in the economic equivalent of water running uphill.

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R8 Peach Deal

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