The cricket thread

WafflesOnHorseback · July 2023

RandallFlagg said:

WafflesOnHorseback said:

Cricket rained off. Golf boring due to massive lead. It's up to Hamilton to save the day!

Yep, we're consoling ourselves with making a big pot of Chinese style chicken and king prawn curry, washing it down with a few Staropramens and watching F1 and cheering on LH

Can I come round?

RandallFlagg · July 2023

WafflesOnHorseback said:

RandallFlagg said:

WafflesOnHorseback said:

Cricket rained off. Golf boring due to massive lead. It's up to Hamilton to save the day!

Yep, we're consoling ourselves with making a big pot of Chinese style chicken and king prawn curry, washing it down with a few Staropramens and watching F1 and cheering on LH

Can I come round?

Sure, curry is simmering ready and we've got the F1 on on the 65” TV in UHD and Dolby Atmos sound bar up loud!

WafflesOnHorseback · July 2023

RandallFlagg said:

WafflesOnHorseback said:

RandallFlagg said:

WafflesOnHorseback said:

Cricket rained off. Golf boring due to massive lead. It's up to Hamilton to save the day!

Yep, we're consoling ourselves with making a big pot of Chinese style chicken and king prawn curry, washing it down with a few Staropramens and watching F1 and cheering on LH

Can I come round?

Sure, curry is simmering ready and we've got the F1 on on the 65” TV in UHD and Dolby Atmos sound bar up loud!

Sounds great! I had a bacon bap or two.

What is annoying is that here in Derbyshire-ish it's lovely and sunny.

RandallFlagg · July 2023

Forecast for rest of afternoon/evening at Old Trafford is dire, what a damp squib of a way for Aus to retain the Ashes, clearly on the ropes in this match as well. I can't imagine they will lose any sleep over it though.

WafflesOnHorseback · July 2023

Yeah, thoroughly underwhelmed by this weather ruining potentially one of the greatest tests ever. I can't believe it's pi***ng down 80 miles up the road. This is BBQ weather here.

RandallFlagg · July 2023

WafflesOnHorseback said:

Yeah, thoroughly underwhelmed by this weather ruining potentially one of the greatest tests ever. I can't believe it's pi***ng down 80 miles up the road. This is BBQ weather here.

I am completely underwhelmed how England have got themselves into this position, was it over confidence? Arrogance? Or just brainless stupidity?

Oh well, there's always The Hundred

axisus · July 2023

Sometimes cricket just seems sh*te as a game. I can't believe we've lost the ashes, we absolutely seem like the better team. We've had sun all day around our way!

They only have themselves to blame with that daft early declaration in the first test, followed by Bairstow's mistake in the next, although the Aussie lack of sportsmanship still leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I feel pretty gutted how it's gone in this one.

chris78 · July 2023

Kick in the teeth. To be positive, we’ve learnt how to play Bazball properly. We’ve got in the Aussies heads. They’ll be genuinely scared of Brook and Crawley down under in 2 years.
On the negative side, given the age of the team, we will need a serious rebuild. Hard to see any of the bowling attack down under. Looks like Jimmy’s time is finally up, Mo probably should re-retire, Wood & Woakes will be mid 30s. It’s possible Stokes’s body will be done by then too.

Shove Rehan Ahmed in and stick with him to learn now- I’d play him at Lords. I’d give Tongue another game as he seems to have something but we’re going to need to find another genuine quick.

pigface · July 2023

chris78 said:

Looks like Jimmy’s time is finally up
Shove Rehan Ahmed in
I’d give Tongue another game

Looks like I can't add anything to an edited quote. In any case, 'yes' to all 3 of these. I can (as a neutral) agree that it's rough to have the weather decide such an important game, but them's the breaks. IMO the Aussies blew the 3rd Test when they should, at least, have drawn it. The first two were close, but this is Test cricket and, to quote Heinrich
Klaasen, 'Test cricket is hard'.

S56035 · July 2023

As a recent convert i.e two games ago, it's good to know the old reason for not watching cricket are there. What a waste of time the last two days were.

scrumhalf · July 2023

Of course, if we had six tests like we used to with the Ashes then the series would still be alive.

But the Hundred comes first.

Non-cricket forcing the real thing to be compressed into an unworkably short timescale. I'm sad that we didn't regain the Ashes but am now looking forward to the next series - ECB v RFU for the title of most clueless sports governing body.

crunchman · July 2023

Jofra Archer is only 28 if he can get fit again. Olly Stone is 30, so he might still be ok in 2 years - again fitness depending.

The Aussies will probably have a major rebuild as well. Khawaja is 36, Warner is 36, Smith is 34, Lyon is 35, Starc is 33, and Hazlewood is 32.

pigface · July 2023

crunchman said:

Jofra Archer is only 28 if he can get fit again. Olly Stone is 30, so he might still be ok in 2 years - again fitness depending.

The Aussies will probably have a major rebuild as well. Khawaja is 36, Warner is 36, Smith is 34, Lyon is 35, Starc is 33, and Hazlewood is 32.

This is all true, but if I were the England bosses, I wouldn't count on Archer. Not the most reliable cricketer. Khawaja is in the form of his life and I don't doubt that he can repeat his Ashes form next time around. 38 is not that old for a batsman. Smith is still a great batsman and Lyon was badly missed in this series. Starc wasn't bad, in general, and he can bat a bit, too.

earwighoney · July 2023

crunchman said:

Jofra Archer is only 28 if he can get fit again. Olly Stone is 30, so he might still be ok in 2 years - again fitness depending.

The Aussies will probably have a major rebuild as well. Khawaja is 36, Warner is 36, Smith is 34, Lyon is 35, Starc is 33, and Hazlewood is 32.

Jofra was broken by Joe Root by bowling him into the ground.

I can't see him returning to the kind of fitness required for test cricket sadly.

guitars4you · July 2023

So the Old Trafford 'voodoo' continues - Jimmy never taken a five for in a test match at OT - Team bowling first never won a test match at OT - We've not beaten the Aussies at OT since 1981, so by the time we play there again it will be a 50 year old record

Have to win at the Oval to ensure the Aussies don't win the Ashes - Think they've not won the Ashes in England since 2001

guitars4you · July 2023

I disagree that Stokes declaring early, on day 1 of the Edgbaston test, was a bad move - Assuming Anderson and Robinson could have stayed with Root for another hour, or indeed Root wasn't out next ball, then the gain would be say an extra 50 runs in the next hour of play - Assuming everything else stayed as was, then the Aussies would have needed 330 to win and not 280 - But everything else is now 1 hour behind

Rain had an impact on time left as well - As such, if the Aussies had to pursue 330 to win and not 280, with 1 hour less to chase this down, then the chances are they would have locked the door and not pursued the chase, so a draw would have likely been the end result - Granted a draw is better than a defeat

But move on a bit - When Cummins and Lyon got together needing 53 more runs - That would now equate to 103 runs required - But as everything is moved back an hour, then they would not have had to bat for to long to get the draw

Needing 53 to win with 2 wickets left the strong money was on an England win - So at that point no issues whatsoever - The issue was we could not take 10 wickets

However, I would agree that an extra 50 runs on the board might have allowed us a more attacking field, for a longer period of time - But all ifs and buts - Not taking 10 wickets was the key IMO and not the declaration

usedtobe · July 2023

To be fair - I hadn’t seen the weather forecast..

crunchman · July 2023

guitars4you said:

I disagree that Stokes declaring early, on day 1 of the Edgbaston test, was a bad move - Assuming Anderson and Robinson could have stayed with Root for another hour, or indeed Root wasn't out next ball, then the gain would be say an extra 50 runs in the next hour of play - Assuming everything else stayed as was, then the Aussies would have needed 330 to win and not 280 - But everything else is now 1 hour behind

Rain had an impact on time left as well - As such, if the Aussies had to pursue 330 to win and not 280, with 1 hour less to chase this down, then the chances are they would have locked the door and not pursued the chase, so a draw would have likely been the end result - Granted a draw is better than a defeat

But move on a bit - When Cummins and Lyon got together needing 53 more runs - That would now equate to 103 runs required - But as everything is moved back an hour, then they would not have had to bat for to long to get the draw

Needing 53 to win with 2 wickets left the strong money was on an England win - So at that point no issues whatsoever - The issue was we could not take 10 wickets

However, I would agree that an extra 50 runs on the board might have allowed us a more attacking field, for a longer period of time - But all ifs and buts - Not taking 10 wickets was the key IMO and not the declaration

Bairstow dropping multiple catches (I think it was 4 of them) was what lost us the first test.

guitars4you · July 2023

crunchman said:

guitars4you said:

I disagree that Stokes declaring early, on day 1 of the Edgbaston test, was a bad move - Assuming Anderson and Robinson could have stayed with Root for another hour, or indeed Root wasn't out next ball, then the gain would be say an extra 50 runs in the next hour of play - Assuming everything else stayed as was, then the Aussies would have needed 330 to win and not 280 - But everything else is now 1 hour behind

Rain had an impact on time left as well - As such, if the Aussies had to pursue 330 to win and not 280, with 1 hour less to chase this down, then the chances are they would have locked the door and not pursued the chase, so a draw would have likely been the end result - Granted a draw is better than a defeat

But move on a bit - When Cummins and Lyon got together needing 53 more runs - That would now equate to 103 runs required - But as everything is moved back an hour, then they would not have had to bat for to long to get the draw

Needing 53 to win with 2 wickets left the strong money was on an England win - So at that point no issues whatsoever - The issue was we could not take 10 wickets

However, I would agree that an extra 50 runs on the board might have allowed us a more attacking field, for a longer period of time - But all ifs and buts - Not taking 10 wickets was the key IMO and not the declaration

Bairstow dropping multiple catches (I think it was 4 of them) was what lost us the first test.

don't disagree - certainly did not help - But my point was the early declaration was not the issue oneIota

crunchman · July 2023

guitars4you said:

crunchman said:

guitars4you said:

I disagree that Stokes declaring early, on day 1 of the Edgbaston test, was a bad move - Assuming Anderson and Robinson could have stayed with Root for another hour, or indeed Root wasn't out next ball, then the gain would be say an extra 50 runs in the next hour of play - Assuming everything else stayed as was, then the Aussies would have needed 330 to win and not 280 - But everything else is now 1 hour behind

Rain had an impact on time left as well - As such, if the Aussies had to pursue 330 to win and not 280, with 1 hour less to chase this down, then the chances are they would have locked the door and not pursued the chase, so a draw would have likely been the end result - Granted a draw is better than a defeat

But move on a bit - When Cummins and Lyon got together needing 53 more runs - That would now equate to 103 runs required - But as everything is moved back an hour, then they would not have had to bat for to long to get the draw

Needing 53 to win with 2 wickets left the strong money was on an England win - So at that point no issues whatsoever - The issue was we could not take 10 wickets

However, I would agree that an extra 50 runs on the board might have allowed us a more attacking field, for a longer period of time - But all ifs and buts - Not taking 10 wickets was the key IMO and not the declaration

Bairstow dropping multiple catches (I think it was 4 of them) was what lost us the first test.

don't disagree - certainly did not help - But my point was the early declaration was not the issue oneIota

I don't think the early declaration was the best decision, but I can understand it. It gave the bowlers a crack at the Aussie batsmen before stumps.

Picking Bairstow as the keeper was the poor decision that lost us that test.

sev112 · July 2023

Bairstow wasn’t the only one dropping catches by the way

and if you want to find a scapegoat , don’t forget to remember all the other Aussie batters who gave their wicket away cheaply, so it’s horses for courses Or whatever

the only thing that is thru in all these suppositions is that it rained for 2 days when we needed 5 wickets

crunchman · July 2023

sev112 said:

Bairstow wasn’t the only one dropping catches by the way

and if you want to find a scapegoat , don’t forget to remember all the other Aussie batters who gave their wicket away cheaply, so it’s horses for courses Or whatever

the only thing that is thru in all these suppositions is that it rained for 2 days when we needed 5 wickets

You can't control that.

You can control the team you pick.

UnclePsychosis · July 2023

crunchman said:

sev112 said:

Bairstow wasn’t the only one dropping catches by the way

and if you want to find a scapegoat , don’t forget to remember all the other Aussie batters who gave their wicket away cheaply, so it’s horses for courses Or whatever

the only thing that is thru in all these suppositions is that it rained for 2 days when we needed 5 wickets

You can't control that.

You can control the team you pick.

You can also control not putting yourself in a position where a draw in the fourth test loses the Ashes.

Giving the first two tests cheaply to Australia is why the Ashes are going back down under, not because it rained for a bit in Manchester.

Its been a weird series, over the four tests you'd say that England have got better and Australia have got worse. Certainly strange to see an Aussie team desperately praying for rain.

I'm utterly convinced that England's problems are 95% in their mental approach to the game. Stoke's comments yesterday about being a legacy team, and a team that will live long in the memory yadda yadda yadda were all a bit troubling for me---a sign for me that self confidence has crossed the boundary into hubris. 1) that's the kind of thing that you just don't say about yourself - particularly when you've just lost a trophy and 2) teams leaving a real legacy probably have a better "Plan B" than the captain texting their mate asking him to unretire because someone got injured.

There was a great quote from an Aussie journalist that the BBC highlighted earlier - "The best thing about this enthralling series, by far, has been Baz Ball. It is captivating and brilliant. But the most tedious thing has been how in love England are with themselves about Bazball".

I really like that. I feel like this England team are a really good side capable of playing a really good type of cricket. But they've become so obsessed with drinking their own bathwater and it's to their detriment.

guitars4you · July 2023

crunchman said:

sev112 said:

Bairstow wasn’t the only one dropping catches by the way

and if you want to find a scapegoat , don’t forget to remember all the other Aussie batters who gave their wicket away cheaply, so it’s horses for courses Or whatever

the only thing that is thru in all these suppositions is that it rained for 2 days when we needed 5 wickets

You can't control that.

You can control the team you pick.

The issue with the balance of the team is Stokes in that all rounder position - He can no longer bowl - Certainly other than the odd spell - Not an issue as Jack Kallis had similar issues in the autumn of his career - IMO Stokes has to go to 3 - If he can bowl the odd spell then that is a bonus - Root and Brook are set in stone at #4 and #5 for now

Ali was only at #3 to help Brook - But for Stokes to bat at #6 and not bowl is creating issues around him - Obviously he is integral to the whole set-up, not just as a captain, but as a batsman

Stokes wants JB in the team for his batting - I suppose Brook at #5 has taken JB's place based on last summer - I think Stokes has a better game for #3 than JB - So #3 Stokes #4 Root #5 Brook - Then you can have JB at #6 and Foakes at #7 - But that still leaves an in balance of only 4 front line bowlers - But Stokes would currently edge his bets and have an all rounder at #6 with JB #7 and keeper - So no Foakes

Without looking, I recall JB and Foakes both played most/all matches last summer - Obviously no JB in the winter matches - But Stokes was still bowling a few overs a day

Tough call either way

But similar issues now reside in the bowling line up - By reputation alone, Jimmy would always be picked - But based on this summer alone, if he was a 23 year old coming thru' the ranks, then you'd drop him based on this summer's results so far - Will be interesting if they 'rest/drop' him for the Oval and play Robinson or Tongue - I'm sure they won't rest Wood, Broad, Woakes - In fact the 2 rain days will have given them extra rest time and they only bowled 11/12 overs in the Aussie 2nd innings

But as an overview - Stokes at 6 in the all rounder position creates an un balance to the side

crunchman · July 2023

I don't know if Stokes' knee is completely shot or it's something they could operate on. Any operation would keep him out of action for months, so you could understand them holding off until the end of the Ashes.

If his knee is completely shot, then he might decide to retire sooner rather than later. Either way, moving him up to 3 looks to be the best option as long as he's in the team.

I'm wondering how long it will be before they look at James Rew of Somerset. He's the leading run scorer in division 1 of the County Championship and, as far as I know, he's actually a proper keeper not a batsman who owns a pair of keeping gloves.

RandallFlagg · July 2023

But...it's still been a good Ashes to watch, some good cricket, some not so good cricket, 5 days tests are better than 3 day whitewashes. Not the result we wanted but entertaining nonetheless and I for one can't wait for the next Ashes in 2025/6 in Aus. I may well be retired by then so will seriously consider switching to nightshift to watch it through for the first time in my life.

Not so sure we'll see a repeat of 2010/11 series but hey ho.

guitars4you · July 2023

RandallFlagg said:

But...it's still been a good Ashes to watch, some good cricket, some not so good cricket, 5 days tests are better than 3 day whitewashes. Not the result we wanted but entertaining nonetheless and I for one can't wait for the next Ashes in 2025/6 in Aus. I may well be retired by then so will seriously consider switching to nightshift to watch it through for the first time in my life.

Not so sure we'll see a repeat of 2010/11 series but hey ho.

I agree - All 4 matches had the potential to go either way - The game is full of ifs and buts - What ifs and nearly - Brilliance and what the f•ck was that - The Aussies are 2-1 up and their press, back home, are asking many questions of them so it is certainly not a case of a dominant team that crushes all

To be fair to the Aussies, Lyon's absence has had an impact on their teams balance

Interesting listening to R5 TMS, during Sat and Sun and various topics were discussed about many aspects of the game - Be it a spare day in case of such delays - A 10-30 start to ensure more overs bowled - Forgot we did this in 2005 ,to allow C4 to show Hollyoaks ( that sounds as bad as playing 5 tests in a short period so we can concentrate on The Hundred (Big deal IMO !!!!!) - Currently we add time to the following day, if the day before was rain affected - But we never add time before hand, in anticipation of losing a whole day, or more as per this OT match - Plus a long chat about the over rate

A better over rate and we might have had another 10/15 overs to bowl before the rain even came down - Maybe it would have brought a collapse - Who knows - Maybe hope on our part - The interesting point amongst the pundits was that first of all the 'authorities' need to talk to the current team captains and managers as to why they won't bowl 90 overs a day - Note the phrase won't rather than can't - Don't impose new rules that may well have no impact with currently no penalties in place - The pundits raised the point that current management are often happy bowling less overs as it keeps their bowlers more fresh - Is it good for the game that you have 4 good bowlers bowling all the overs, but less overs in the day, or should it be that an 'inferior' 5th bowler has to be utilised in order to make up the required overs in the day and as such rest their key players - As it appears to be the case that players won't bowl 90 overs in a day, imagine footballers deciding they won't play for 90 mins and rugby players not playing for 80 mins (I know the ball is not in play 100% of the time but the authorities still play 90 mins)

One idea was a 'time clock' as per tennis - Either between overs - If bowlers, or indeed batsman aren't ready, then runs added/subtracted would be the penalty - Or 4 mins allowed from the first ball in the over to the umpires saying 'over' after the 6th ball - Any default on this and runs added accordingly - But a 3rd Umpire would have to make allowance for 'official' delays, be it a wicket, hit on the head, appeal referrals etc - Probably easier to apply a time clock between overs and this will cut back on 'board room discussions' between captains and bowlers (often 2/3 bowlers as well)

But overall this series has had the public talking, with viewing figures plus TMS figures showing a significant increase

UnclePsychosis · July 2023

guitars4you said:

One idea was a 'time clock' as per tennis - Either between overs - If bowlers, or indeed batsman aren't ready, then runs added/subtracted would be the penalty - Or 4 mins allowed from the first ball in the over to the umpires saying 'over' after the 6th ball - Any default on this and runs added accordingly - But a 3rd Umpire would have to make allowance for 'official' delays, be it a wicket, hit on the head, appeal referrals etc - Probably easier to apply a time clock between overs and this will cut back on 'board room discussions' between captains and bowlers (often 2/3 bowlers as well)

I really like the idea of adding some kind of clock. And proper punishments.

crunchman · July 2023

UnclePsychosis said:

guitars4you said:

One idea was a 'time clock' as per tennis - Either between overs - If bowlers, or indeed batsman aren't ready, then runs added/subtracted would be the penalty - Or 4 mins allowed from the first ball in the over to the umpires saying 'over' after the 6th ball - Any default on this and runs added accordingly - But a 3rd Umpire would have to make allowance for 'official' delays, be it a wicket, hit on the head, appeal referrals etc - Probably easier to apply a time clock between overs and this will cut back on 'board room discussions' between captains and bowlers (often 2/3 bowlers as well)

I really like the idea of adding some kind of clock. And proper punishments.

They have done it in baseball. They made their games half an hour shorter.

UnclePsychosis · July 2023

RandallFlagg said:

I for one can't wait for the next Ashes in 2025/6 in Aus.

Got to be honest...I can. England vs Australia for the tenth time in eighteen months just isn't exciting for me.

One of the major problems I have with international cricket is the closed shop nature of it all.

The ICC needs to drop the laughable concept of "non test" nations and actually have a go at developing cricket. Sadly, it won't because the ICC has only two purposes---ensuring that India play Pakistan in all tournaments to keep the money coming in, and then maintaining the status quo by ensuring none of the big boys can be threated by anyone else.

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