The cricket thread

crunchman · August 2020

3 dropped catches by Buttler. He has to go.

Edit: 2 catches and a stumping.

scrumhalf · August 2020

Not the greatest of performances so far today. Bess doesn't seem to offer much as a first-choice spinner, but why did Root bowl him leading up to tea when he was getting carted?

crunchman · August 2020

scrumhalf said:

Not the greatest of performances so far today. Bess doesn't seem to offer much as a first-choice spinner, but why did Root bowl him leading up to tea when he was getting carted?

Keeping calamities don't help. Dropped catch and missed stumping by Buttler. His figures would look a lot better with a 3 in the wickets column.

You could argue that Leach is a better bowler, but Bess's runs were important against the Windies.

scrumhalf · August 2020

They'll be needed now as well. Third over and both openers have gone, not playing particularly test standard strokes.

It's not right that Root and Stokes are in so early.

scrumhalf · August 2020

Stokes gone for a duck, 12-3.

RandallFlagg · August 2020

Oh well, there's always the 2nd innings.

crunchman · August 2020

RandallFlagg said:

Oh well, there's always the 2nd innings.

Buttler will probably choose today to bat well, and give Ed Smith an excuse to keep him in. If he had taken Shan Masood on 45, Pakistan would probably only have got around 200 (if that) and 92 for 4 wouldn't look so bad.

He cost us that first test against the Windies as well.

guitars4you · August 2020

RandallFlagg said:

Oh well, there's always the 2nd innings.

That 'bowling' injury to Stokes is having an impact on a 'balanced' team with Root and Stokes both in too early at 3/4 - Have they given up on Crawley ?

No genuine all rounder with out Stokes bowling - But Woakes can do a good job with the bat at times - I feel sorry for Curran and still think he should be part of the side

To be fair we have 'strong' bowling options at the moment - But they won't all fit into the 4 available places

Yet all that means little if the opposition can make the ball talk more, as Pakistan did last night and we respond poorly

sixstringsupplies · August 2020

Yes all a bit strange to be honest. The decision to bowl Root in tandem with Bess straight after lunch yesterday was mind boggling. If two of the bowlers are tired and want to keep them fresh for the new ball due in 5 overs time, bowl the 3rd and 4th seamers!

I assume Foakes will play the next series. I would replace Anderson in the next match with Curran and play Crawley.

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Pope
Stokes
Foakes
Curran/Woakes (I tihnk Woakes will get the nod as he is bowling well, but Curran offers something different)
Archer
Broad
Leach

Is Leach in the "bubble" or has he been released (and therefore would have to quarantine before he can enter the bubble( same question for Foakes. Is he even in the squad? if not, I don't think he can play this series.

Then again, very easy to criticise with hindsight.

crunchman · August 2020

Foakes has to come in. Not just for this series but looking to the future. There are tours of places like India coming up, and Buttler cannot keep to anything like test standard standing up to the wicket against spinners. All three of his missed chances were off Bess.

Andy Zatzmann had an interesting stat on TMS as well. When Buttler has to keep wicket after batting (2nd, 3rd, 4th innings) he only averages 24. He's not a proper keeper in the first class game, and isn't used to keeping for a day and half and then batting afterwards. Foakes is likely to do better than that, so you don't even have the justification of Buttler's batting as a reason to include him.

sev112 · August 2020

I think Buttler is a fabulous player
but he just isn’t a test wicket keeper, you can see he takes balls with stiff arms, and he is just that millisecond too late. I would drop him, but tell him that he is a key part of the England set up and go and prove to us that he shouldn’t be kept out
Foakes yes, he was very unlucky a year or so back.
my swap would be Curran for Archer. He offers more with that bath and in these conditions more with the ball.
Anderson continues to defy logic. Bess has had god know how many drops and stumpings
Pakistan bowlers look good, and batsmen look fun

Heartfeltdawn · August 2020

crunchman said:

Keeping calamities don't help. Dropped catch and missed stumping by Buttler. His figures would look a lot better with a 3 in the wickets column.

You could argue that Leach is a better bowler, but Bess's runs were important against the Windies.

And Leach's runs were important against Ireland and his run was important against Australia...

Leach was criticised for not getting more wickets and getting into the Australians. His series performance:

Four Tests. 101 overs, 20 maidens. 12 wickets. Average of 25.83. Strike rate of 50.8. ER of 3.04. Better average and strike rate than his Australian opponent aka the man acknowledged to be Australia's best ever off spinner.

So far this summer Bess has bowled on some tracks that really have given the spinners a lot for the most part. He hasn't been playing against Australia. He's been playing against Pakistan (very useful batting line up) and the West Indies (mostly shit). Up to the end of today's play, his figures for the summer:

Four Tests (including this current one). 97 overs. 19 maidens. 7 wickets. Average of 46. Strike rate of 83. ER of 3.31.

Yes, he has had chances missed. But overall he's not looked convincing with the ball. And when you stuff the stats down on the page and compare Leach versus Australia where people were doubting him to Bess against what I consider to be weaker opposition and on more helpful pitches for slow bowlers compared to 2019, Bess is on very shaky ground.

"Oh but Bess can bat!" - both have one Test half century.

"Oh but Bess can field better!" - Leach has held more catches. Both have effected run outs.

We shouldn't be picking spinners based on their ability to make up for a misfiring batting top order.

Heartfeltdawn · August 2020

sev112 said:

I think Buttler is a fabulous player
but he just isn’t a test wicket keeper, you can see he takes balls with stiff arms, and he is just that millisecond too late. I would drop him, but tell him that he is a key part of the England set up and go and prove to us that he shouldn’t be kept out
Foakes yes, he was very unlucky a year or so back.
my swap would be Curran for Archer. He offers more with that bath and in these conditions more with the ball.
Anderson continues to defy logic. Bess has had god know how many drops and stumpings
Pakistan bowlers look good, and batsmen look fun

This entirely. THat drop the other day, you see the arms moving so rigidly. Watching Rizwan taking balls from Yasir and Shadab really reinforces how poor Buttler is.

Archer's had some criticism and I think it's unfair. He just looks like a guy who had a really niggly injury at the start of the year, the sort of injury that can cause a drop in pace (remember Tim Bresnan pre- and post- elbow injury?). He looks really undercooked. You can come back from an injury and do as much net bowling as you like but it's not actual match practice. I'd say Anderson's a bit similar too.

scrumhalf · August 2020

Bess is nowhere near accurate enough for test cricket. He'll bowl at least one four-ball per over and doesn't appear to have anything to scare international-class batsmen.

crunchman · August 2020

scrumhalf said:

Bess is nowhere near accurate enough for test cricket. He'll bowl at least one four-ball per over and doesn't appear to have anything to scare international-class batsmen.

I've seen some deliveries turn and bounce sharply. He gets a decent amount of rip on the ball.

WIth Pakistan and the Windies not having a lot of left handers, Leach may be a better option, but you are weakening the batting and fielding. With Broad in the side, and Anderson starting to look his age, a good fielder like Bess is important. You can't hide too many weak links in the field.

The other thing with Bess in home conditions is that he's not a complete passenger on a wicket that suits the quick bowlers. Personally I'd probably go with Leach, but it's a reasonably close call.

Heartfeltdawn · August 2020

But he's comfortably been outripped by his opposition spinners, be it the Pakistanis or Roston Chase, a dude who is far from a top notch spinner.

If Bess's bowling is defended by saying he bats and fields a bit better (debatable on the second), then his bowling isn't good enough this season despite playing on helpful wickets. Bottom line: his record this summer is mediocre compared to the record of the 1st pick spinner last summer.

Heartfeltdawn · August 2020

Sir Woakes, arise.

scrumhalf · August 2020

Bloody hell!

Test cricket - you can't beat it!

guitars4you · August 2020

scrumhalf said:

Bloody hell!

Test cricket - you can't beat it!

agree - At a BBQ late afternoon and all the blokes crammed around an ipad to watch it - great stuff - Bring on the 2nd test

steveledzep · August 2020

guitars4you said:

scrumhalf said:

Bloody hell!

Test cricket - you can't beat it!

agree - At a BBQ late afternoon and all the blokes crammed around an ipad to watch it - great stuff - Bring on the 2nd test

Yes, I had TMS on the radio in my garage while I pottered. Didn't get much pottering done

.

Heartfeltdawn · August 2020

scrumhalf said:

Bloody hell!

Test cricket - you can't beat it!

Oh, I dunno... the matches featuring Leicestershire and Derbyshire earlier in the week were pretty bloody awesome too. The lockdown has been bloody hard but the longer formats of the game in this country have shown themselves in a very good light considering the restrictions.

Not that we'd have cared because we'd all be attending Hundred matches, right?

guitars4you · August 2020

So no Stokes which I assume will bring in Crawley as the batsman role

Following the last win, then Butler + Woakes will certainly remain in place

The issue for me will Archer or Anderson be replaced for the next match - IMO Curran should be in there - As a bowler as he offers something different, certainly as the 4th seamer in that 'all rounder' role and is often useful with the bat

So for me

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root - at 4
Pope
Butler
Curran
Woakes
Bess
Broad
Archer or Anderson - choice of sentiment or hopefully the future

crunchman · August 2020

They ought to try to get Foakes in. For all that Buttler's batting did in the fourth innings, it wouldn't have been needed if we were chasing 100 to 150, which we should have been. Shan Masood made 111 extra after Buttler missed him twice. Getting him out would have opened up an end as well. It would have completely changed the game. We were really lucky to get away with that. 9 times out of 10 we would have lost the match chasing that much. I think there has only been one higher chase in a test at Old Trafford ever.

As I've said many time it's not like Foakes can't bat.

The problem now is that Foakes hasn't played any cricket this summer. Even with Stokes out, I'd still rather play the extra batsman and put Foakes at 7. A lot of test teams play a 4 man attack. It's not ideal but it's the lesser of two evils.

Bring Crawley back in to replace Stokes, and keep Buttler at 6 as a batsman for now.

In a 4 man attack, I'd pick Leach over Bess. If you are playing a 4 man attack, with the extra batting, then Bess's batting is less important. We wouldn't be a great fielding side, but Buttler is a good fielder when he doesn't have the gloves so we would probably get away with it.

Burns

Sibley

Crawley

Root

Pope

Buttler

Foakes

Woakes

Broad

Archer

Leach

In some ways I'd prefer to rest Archer and play Wood, but given his injury history, he would be too much of a risk in a 4 man attack without Stokes to pick up the pieces.

shrinkwrap · August 2020

crunchman said:

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Pope
Buttler
Foakes
Woakes
Broad
Archer
Leach

I thought Foakes isn't in the bubble, whereas Leach is?

I can't see they'd risk Foakes without a warm up game, then again it might take pressure off Buttler, I don't believe he's as petulant about losing the gloves as YJB.

crunchman · August 2020

shrinkwrap said:

crunchman said:

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root
Pope
Buttler
Foakes
Woakes
Broad
Archer
Leach

I thought Foakes isn't in the bubble, whereas Leach is?
I can't see they'd risk Foakes without a warm up game, then again it might take pressure off Buttler, I don't believe he's as petulant about losing the gloves as YJB.

Foakes must be in the bubble, otherwise he would have been playing for his county.

guitars4you · August 2020

guitars4you said:

So no Stokes which I assume will bring in Crawley as the batsman role

Following the last win, then Butler + Woakes will certainly remain in place

The issue for me will Archer or Anderson be replaced for the next match - IMO Curran should be in there - As a bowler as he offers something different, certainly as the 4th seamer in that 'all rounder' role and is often useful with the bat

So for me

Burns
Sibley
Crawley
Root - at 4
Pope
Butler
Curran
Woakes
Bess
Broad
Archer or Anderson - choice of sentiment or hopefully the future

effectively what I expected - And they went with sentiment over the future - But Jimi now needs 9 more wickets for 600 - Come on son

sev112 · August 2020

So, watching Buttler’s keeping. He takes too many balls away from his body with at least one straight arm, and most importantly he doesn’t use his feet enough. I really like him and rate him as a player and as a team player, but he just doesn’t seem to pick up the ball or move his feet enough so that his body is in the right place (I..e close to the ball when he takes it)

crunchman · August 2020

sev112 said:

So, watching Buttler’s keeping. He takes too many balls away from his body with at least one straight arm, and most importantly he doesn’t use his feet enough. I really like him and rate him as a player and as a team player, but he just doesn’t seem to pick up the ball or move his feet enough so that his body is in the right place (I..e close to the ball when he takes it)

If he's going to play, it has to be as a batsman. He's not a good enough keeper.

Given his natural ability, he could probably become a better keeper if he worked on it hard enough, but he's not there at the moment. Given that he's less than a month away from being 30, it's probably a bit late now.

Teetonetal · August 2020

crunchman said:

sev112 said:

So, watching Buttler’s keeping. He takes too many balls away from his body with at least one straight arm, and most importantly he doesn’t use his feet enough. I really like him and rate him as a player and as a team player, but he just doesn’t seem to pick up the ball or move his feet enough so that his body is in the right place (I..e close to the ball when he takes it)

If he's going to play, it has to be as a batsman. He's not a good enough keeper.

Given his natural ability, he could probably become a better keeper if he worked on it hard enough, but he's not there at the moment. Given that he's less than a month away from being 30, it's probably a bit late now.

You would imagine that, given he's in the test team, he is working and has worked on it plenty?

Gassage · August 2020

Harsh on Jos.

At times his footwork has reminded me of the great Jason Leonard.

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