Russell Brand allegations

Shrews · September 2023

Gilly said:

Shrews said:

Gilly said:

Shrews said:

Gilly said:

Shrews said:

euan said:

Watch the part of the video Roberty highlighted on page 6. It makes it clear why people didn’t, and an insight into how those who did were silenced.

Ok I watched it, but still don't see why they don't report it to the police. Yep, employer, in those circles I geddit, you might be flushing a career you've work hard for down the drain.

But.

Just go to the police. Help them build a case, encourage who has spread the rumour to do the same. The Theroux interview was post Savile, Operation Yew Tree was in full swing and yet she didn't report this one?

Why not?

Jesus christ. I know I shouldn’t be surprised on here but still.

Why are you surprised? Did you watch the video I was asked to watch?

If I heard stories about a colleague at work grooming young girls, women colleagues being sexually harassed, I would go straight to my HR Dept and leave it with them. If I saw no change then I would take it a step further.

If I had no faith in my HR Dept I would go to the police.

What I wouldn't do is say nothing and leave it up to someone else to report

What sort of person are you @Gilly ? A 'do something about it' person or a 'shush, say nothing' person?

So because that’s what you would do, that’s how everyone else should act? There’s numerous reasons why someone might not report a sexual assault to the police. What I would do is completely irrelevant.

It's very relevant if you've heard the stories, been told first-hand, witnessed it first-hand and, as the interviewee stated were from highly reputable sources.

And yes, it is how EVERYBODY should act. Why the hell wouldn't you?

Worried about your mortgage like the interviewee perhaps? FFS. People like you make me sick. Sit back and do fuck all.

Seriously stop embarrassing yourself.

Seriously, be more courageous in life, encourage others to be courageous and perhaps victims of 'alleged' crimes would feel more confident about coming forward.

roberty · September 2023

FFS lmao

S56035 · September 2023

Shrews said:

Gilly said:

Shrews said:

Gilly said:

Shrews said:

Gilly said:

Shrews said:

euan said:

Watch the part of the video Roberty highlighted on page 6. It makes it clear why people didn’t, and an insight into how those who did were silenced.

Ok I watched it, but still don't see why they don't report it to the police. Yep, employer, in those circles I geddit, you might be flushing a career you've work hard for down the drain.

But.

Just go to the police. Help them build a case, encourage who has spread the rumour to do the same. The Theroux interview was post Savile, Operation Yew Tree was in full swing and yet she didn't report this one?

Why not?

Jesus christ. I know I shouldn’t be surprised on here but still.

Why are you surprised? Did you watch the video I was asked to watch?

If I heard stories about a colleague at work grooming young girls, women colleagues being sexually harassed, I would go straight to my HR Dept and leave it with them. If I saw no change then I would take it a step further.

If I had no faith in my HR Dept I would go to the police.

What I wouldn't do is say nothing and leave it up to someone else to report

What sort of person are you @Gilly ? A 'do something about it' person or a 'shush, say nothing' person?

So because that’s what you would do, that’s how everyone else should act? There’s numerous reasons why someone might not report a sexual assault to the police. What I would do is completely irrelevant.

It's very relevant if you've heard the stories, been told first-hand, witnessed it first-hand and, as the interviewee stated were from highly reputable sources.

And yes, it is how EVERYBODY should act. Why the hell wouldn't you?

Worried about your mortgage like the interviewee perhaps? FFS. People like you make me sick. Sit back and do fuck all.

Seriously stop embarrassing yourself.

Seriously, be more courageous in life, encourage others to be courageous and perhaps victims of 'alleged' crimes would feel more confident about coming forward.

I bet you were very close to putting the "victims" weren't you.

roberty · September 2023

In a way you're correct @Shrews in that there were people at Endemol/BBC/Channel 4 who turned a blind eye. But it is highly offensive to blame women for this in any way, shape or form. You would do better to listen to them than to cast judgement

Shrews · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

Shrews said:
But what are the reasons for this?

If the person was guilty then the evidence available decides if the case progresses to a charge. The courtroom decides if the evidence convicts the person.

The cases get dropped, the evidence is deemed weak, the victim pulls out.

Not everything is free and fair in these scenarios, there is bias throughout the criminal justice system, and the information the CPS get can be biased, and the processes involved, like using rape testing kits can be extremely distressing for women, as well as having their phones taken off them and analysed for months. The thought of going through a whole legal case can be like a going through the rape again for them. The police force seems to have a shit load of sex pests amongst their ranks, with over a thousand Met Officers alone being investigated for sexual offences.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/19/police-met-officers-suspended-or-restricted-duties?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Many women have said that they got contacted by random officers on Facebook after they submit their accusations. This misogyny is likely to be widespread through the criminal justice system overall, just as racism is. Can you imagine the trauma of going through all of this and then you meet an officer who flirts with you, acts inappropriately, casts doubt on your story, interrogates you, the victim or just flat out blames you at the highest level? Surely you can see why you would become hesitant in this scenario or why you might try and evade it altogether.

https://refuge.org.uk/news/refuge-responds-to-senior-met-police-officers-alleged-comments-that-bulk-of-rape-reports-were-regretful-sex/

And then you're now talking about a very powerful, successful person who is setting his legal team on you, and you start to consider all those followers, all those comments casting doubt in you disparaging you. It must be very daunting to take that challenge on, or continue it.

It is can also be difficult to prove rape in lots of scenarios, especially when it happens in a domestic setting.

On a personal note, my mother worked for the women's refuge for years in the 90's and it was like the women were on their own. The authorities didn't seem to give a shit. Partners and abusers would find out where the refuge was and would come banging on the door with their mates demanding they hand the wife/girlfriend over. These women would have to leave the refuge because it was unsafe for them even there and they'd spend days on our sofa until other arrangements were made. This happened time and time again. If it wasn't for charities and services I don't know what they'd have done.

Yep, but still important they come forward and feel encouraged to come forward.

This is the post-Savile era. The days of not coming forward because you are 'worried about your mortgage' (the video) are thankfully lessened.

Sure, the evidence may be seen as weak, but that's the law we have. 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

In Brand's case it doesn't mean he is guilty of being a rapist or sexual predator.

So what happens now? If the police dismiss it because of 'lack of evidence' does everyone now think the police are useless, our justice system is useless and Brand is a rapist sex predator?

Philly_Q · September 2023

I think I see where this thread's heading, but whilst it's still open, in relation to the last few posts... I don't think I've ever had cause to report a crime, but would the police even speak to someone who wasn't an actual victim, or at the very least a witness?

Shrews · September 2023

Philly_Q said:

I think I see where this thread's heading, but whilst it's still open, in relation to the last few posts... I don't think I've ever had cause to report a crime, but would the police even speak to someone who wasn't an actual victim, or at the very least a witness?

Report it anyway.

In the case of the interviewee, and given what's happened with Savile, they will not want to be seen as doing nothing. She should have reported it and so should everybody else.

And nobody, but nobody, should shy away from doing so for the sake of their mortgage.

Kittyfrisk · September 2023

TeleMaster · September 2023

Shrews said:

TeleMaster said:

Shrews said:
But what are the reasons for this?

If the person was guilty then the evidence available decides if the case progresses to a charge. The courtroom decides if the evidence convicts the person.

The cases get dropped, the evidence is deemed weak, the victim pulls out.

Not everything is free and fair in these scenarios, there is bias throughout the criminal justice system, and the information the CPS get can be biased, and the processes involved, like using rape testing kits can be extremely distressing for women, as well as having their phones taken off them and analysed for months. The thought of going through a whole legal case can be like a going through the rape again for them. The police force seems to have a shit load of sex pests amongst their ranks, with over a thousand Met Officers alone being investigated for sexual offences.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/19/police-met-officers-suspended-or-restricted-duties?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Many women have said that they got contacted by random officers on Facebook after they submit their accusations. This misogyny is likely to be widespread through the criminal justice system overall, just as racism is. Can you imagine the trauma of going through all of this and then you meet an officer who flirts with you, acts inappropriately, casts doubt on your story, interrogates you, the victim or just flat out blames you at the highest level? Surely you can see why you would become hesitant in this scenario or why you might try and evade it altogether.

https://refuge.org.uk/news/refuge-responds-to-senior-met-police-officers-alleged-comments-that-bulk-of-rape-reports-were-regretful-sex/

And then you're now talking about a very powerful, successful person who is setting his legal team on you, and you start to consider all those followers, all those comments casting doubt in you disparaging you. It must be very daunting to take that challenge on, or continue it.

It is can also be difficult to prove rape in lots of scenarios, especially when it happens in a domestic setting.

On a personal note, my mother worked for the women's refuge for years in the 90's and it was like the women were on their own. The authorities didn't seem to give a shit. Partners and abusers would find out where the refuge was and would come banging on the door with their mates demanding they hand the wife/girlfriend over. These women would have to leave the refuge because it was unsafe for them even there and they'd spend days on our sofa until other arrangements were made. This happened time and time again. If it wasn't for charities and services I don't know what they'd have done.

Yep, but still important they come forward and feel encouraged to come forward.

This is the post-Savile era. The days of not coming forward because you are 'worried about your mortgage' (the video) are thankfully lessened.

Sure, the evidence may be seen as weak, but that's the law we have. 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

In Brand's case it doesn't mean he is guilty of being a rapist or sexual predator.

So what happens now? If the police dismiss it because of 'lack of evidence' does everyone now think the police are useless, our justice system is useless and Brand is a rapist sex predator?

Lessened, but how much? You come forward and you get interrogated like you're the perpetrator, or you have your life turned upside down, you are trashed in the media, and now you have millions of people shitting all over you. It's just not as simple as you're making it out to be. And then you've got predatory police officers all over the place.

People are entitled to think what they want, regardless of a court ruling.

My position on this is to listen to women on the matter, don't dismiss what they're saying with a 'yea but' because you think they should act a certain way based on a perfect scenario. They are the ones going through it.

Sporky · September 2023

It would be grand if women were - and felt - able to come forwards before the snowball starts rolling, but it's naive in the extreme to think that that is the world that exists.

The Met, for example, come across as an organisation staffed almost exclusively by rapist thugs. Who in their right mind would go to an organisation like that to report a sex crime?

theatreanchor · September 2023

Kittyfrisk said:

Is that real? The new one is out already? Thought it was due on the 22nd.

Shrews · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

Shrews said:

TeleMaster said:

Shrews said:
But what are the reasons for this?

If the person was guilty then the evidence available decides if the case progresses to a charge. The courtroom decides if the evidence convicts the person.

The cases get dropped, the evidence is deemed weak, the victim pulls out.

Not everything is free and fair in these scenarios, there is bias throughout the criminal justice system, and the information the CPS get can be biased, and the processes involved, like using rape testing kits can be extremely distressing for women, as well as having their phones taken off them and analysed for months. The thought of going through a whole legal case can be like a going through the rape again for them. The police force seems to have a shit load of sex pests amongst their ranks, with over a thousand Met Officers alone being investigated for sexual offences.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/19/police-met-officers-suspended-or-restricted-duties?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Many women have said that they got contacted by random officers on Facebook after they submit their accusations. This misogyny is likely to be widespread through the criminal justice system overall, just as racism is. Can you imagine the trauma of going through all of this and then you meet an officer who flirts with you, acts inappropriately, casts doubt on your story, interrogates you, the victim or just flat out blames you at the highest level? Surely you can see why you would become hesitant in this scenario or why you might try and evade it altogether.

https://refuge.org.uk/news/refuge-responds-to-senior-met-police-officers-alleged-comments-that-bulk-of-rape-reports-were-regretful-sex/

And then you're now talking about a very powerful, successful person who is setting his legal team on you, and you start to consider all those followers, all those comments casting doubt in you disparaging you. It must be very daunting to take that challenge on, or continue it.

It is can also be difficult to prove rape in lots of scenarios, especially when it happens in a domestic setting.

On a personal note, my mother worked for the women's refuge for years in the 90's and it was like the women were on their own. The authorities didn't seem to give a shit. Partners and abusers would find out where the refuge was and would come banging on the door with their mates demanding they hand the wife/girlfriend over. These women would have to leave the refuge because it was unsafe for them even there and they'd spend days on our sofa until other arrangements were made. This happened time and time again. If it wasn't for charities and services I don't know what they'd have done.

Yep, but still important they come forward and feel encouraged to come forward.

This is the post-Savile era. The days of not coming forward because you are 'worried about your mortgage' (the video) are thankfully lessened.

Sure, the evidence may be seen as weak, but that's the law we have. 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

In Brand's case it doesn't mean he is guilty of being a rapist or sexual predator.

So what happens now? If the police dismiss it because of 'lack of evidence' does everyone now think the police are useless, our justice system is useless and Brand is a rapist sex predator?

Lessened, but how much? You come forward and you get interrogated like you're the perpetrator, or you have your life turned upside down, you are trashed in the media, and now you have millions of people shitting all over you. It's just not as simple as you're making it out to be. And then you've got predatory police officers all over the place.

People are entitled to think what they want, regardless of a court ruling.

My position on this is to listen to women on the matter, don't dismiss what they're saying with a 'yea but' because you think they should act a certain way based on a perfect scenario. They are the ones going through it.

Boys and men get abused and raped too. Any potential victim should be listened to and not one should feel scared, unable, or worried about doing so. I said this in my first post.

But others not reporting it when they 'know something' is just plain wrong.

Do something to help potential victims. Sitting back keeping quiet helps nobody.

Kittyfrisk · September 2023

^ Yep, arrived today. Subscribers get it slightly earlier... sometimes.

JezWynd · September 2023

Sporky said:

It would be grand if women were - and felt - able to come forwards before the snowball starts fling, but it's naive in the extreme to think that that is the world that exists.

Amber Heard: Hold my beer.

Snowballs?

theatreanchor · September 2023

Kittyfrisk said:

^ Yep, arrived today. Subscribers get it slightly earlier... sometimes.

I’m a subscriber but haven’t mine yet. Good cover though.

Sporky · September 2023

JezWynd said:

Sporky said:

It would be grand if women were - and felt - able to come forwards before the snowball starts rolling, but it's naive in the extreme to think that that is the world that exists.

Amber Heard: Hold my beer.

Snowballs?

I mean the thing where one person is brave enough to stand up. That can be a catalyst for others, and the snowball starts rolling and growing. (spologies, autocorrect changed rolling into fling in the post you quoted)

It would be a lovely world if each and every victim could stand up on their own, but that is not the case.

Sassafras · September 2023

Shrews said:

Philly_Q said:

I think I see where this thread's heading, but whilst it's still open, in relation to the last few posts... I don't think I've ever had cause to report a crime, but would the police even speak to someone who wasn't an actual victim, or at the very least a witness?

Report it anyway.

In the case of the interviewee, and given what's happened with Savile, they will not want to be seen as doing nothing. She should have reported it and so should everybody else.

And nobody, but nobody, should shy away from doing so for the sake of their mortgage.

Read this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-60215575

It might help you understand why people could be reluctant to report sex crimes. I doubt that's the only police station staffed by a bunch of thugs.

JezWynd · September 2023

Sporky said:

That can be a catalyst for others, and the snowball starts rolling and growing. (spologies, autocorrect changed rolling into fling in the post you quoted)

Got it. Thanks for elucidation.

Lodious · September 2023

Given that people now appear to have combined the concepts of being accused of a crime and being convicted of a crime, can we get rid of the pesky criminal justice system and replace it with an app where people can just vote guilty or not guilty?

Obviously we would have week of media feeding frenzy before each vote to prevent any miscarriages of justice. Having lots of people discussing a case on social media means we don’t actually need evidence. Hive minds and all that.

There was an episode on The Orville where they had a similar idea. I thought that was satire, but it turns out it was a blueprint for what the public actually want.

I’m no fan of RB, but when people like Cathrine Ryan start wading in with comments which are basically hearsay presented as fact it reduces the chances of getting a sound conviction.

But who cares if it’s a sound conviction…we just want a conviction right?

Philly_Q · September 2023

Lodious said:

I’m no fan of RB, but when people like Cathrine Ryan start wading in with comments which are basically hearsay presented as fact it reduces the chances of getting a sound conviction.

Since you're so keen on facts and not passing judgement without evidence, "people like Cathrine Ryan" haven't waded in with anything. Katherine Ryan made comments in a Louis Theroux documentary some time ago, about a still unnamed "predator" who, she says, she personally confronted about his behaviour. As far as I'm aware she's made no comment this week.

swiller · September 2023

Ill just chuck in that in the majority of cases that actually do get reported, women have to be swabbed to gain evidence that it happened. This is optional of course, but without that its pretty much a non starter. Even if that goes ahead, its still a game of your word vs anothers. Thats another reason why women dont bother.

Analogy..
1) If there was only 1% chance of being able to buy a burger at Mcdonalds, i'm sure the people wanting a burger might decide it is a fucking stupid place to go and try and get one.
2) They might be further put off by having to drop your pants and someone has to put a clipper lighter up your arse before they even consider you in the tombola for a burger.
3) You can only do the above after someone much stronger than you has chinned you out cold within the previous few hours hrs.
4) That person will see you got the burger and have a much bigger interest in getting it back than you do.

But hey be courageous, you might get lucky, better than just sitting around wishing for big mac eh? Or maybe just grab a sandwich instead.

JEM · September 2023

Did I miss something? There's a lot of comments on here about "innocent until proven guilty" and "sound convictions" but as far as I'm aware there's no criminal investigation ongoing.

Several women have made allegations about Brand's behaviour and a result some businesses have chosen to distance themselves from him. Bearing in mind the most serious allegation took place in the US the odds of any kind of trial happening in the UK seem slim.

I guess there may be a civil case in the future but again, "innocent until proven guilty" and "sound conviction" don't apply.

darthed1981 · September 2023

Philly_Q said:

Lodious said:

I’m no fan of RB, but when people like Cathrine Ryan start wading in with comments which are basically hearsay presented as fact it reduces the chances of getting a sound conviction.

Since you're so keen on facts and not passing judgement without evidence, "people like Cathrine Ryan" haven't waded in with anything. Katherine Ryan made comments in a Louis Theroux documentary some time ago, about a still unnamed "predator" who, she says, she personally confronted about his behaviour. As far as I'm aware she's made no comment this week.

Yup - correct - everyone else has been joining dots between her comments and Brand, she hasn't said anything.

There are a couple of other very powerful comedians who have reputations for sleaziness it could be as well.

imalrightjack · September 2023

While I think it’s incredibly sad and wrong that the percentage of convictions is tiny, has anybody personally known anybody on the other side who has been wrongly accused? Do you know the impact it can have? I do. It’s life-shattering.

I find it baffling that, because the stats are so low, some have an attitude that we should simply trust victims, regardless of when the accusation is made or whether there is any evidence. I don’t have an answer but it’s not that.

I just hope that if RB is guilty he gets his cock kicked off. If he’s not, I hope those accusing have their fannies cemented up.

Chalky · September 2023

imalrightjack said:

While I think it’s incredibly sad and wrong that the percentage of convictions is tiny, has anybody personally known anybody on the other side who has been wrongly accused? Do you know the impact it can have? I do. It’s life-shattering.

I find it baffling that, because the stats are so low, some have an attitude that we should simply trust victims, regardless of when the accusation is made or whether there is any evidence. I don’t have an answer but it’s not that.

I just hope that if RB is guilty he gets his cock kicked off. If he’s not, I hope those accusing have their fannies cemented up.

About 20 years ago I was in the office late with two women colleagues having what I thought was a normal chat as we finished up our work day. I left about 6:30. Next morning I get to the office but get led into a room with serious management faces who ask me what happened last night. Having recounted my memory they told me the two women had accused me of inappropriate remarks and sexual harassment. These management were people I'd worked alongside for years, been to the pub with, been out for dinner with. The two women had worked there for several months.

I left the place within a few days and never had any contact with any of them again. I was shocked that friends could turn on me based on such nonsense 'evidence'. I was also shocked that two women could make such a baseless and dangerous accusation against me.

Since then, I never had ANY work meetings in a room with only me and one or two women. A few times I even feigned illness when necessary to avoid or get out of such a meeting. I also avoided such situations in my personal life unless I knew the women very well indeed.

Thank God my experience was so scary but didn't lead to anything serious. It was a very strong lesson but thankfully a very cheap lesson.

Naturally you think it couldn't happen to you. You are so wrong.

Both women turned up to my leaving drink to show "no hard feelings"!!!

Brio · September 2023

More on Katherine Ryan
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/katherine-ryan-about-russell-brand-comedy-roast-b2415598.html

PLOP · September 2023

I’ve always liked Russell Brand. I listened to his podcasts for years, watched him on Re:Brand, seen his stand up live… Not really keen on the weird conspiracy stuff of the last ~5 years but he’s still a smart, intelligent, funny and seemingly very caring person.
while lots of people accept whatever bad thing about him as true because of his persona, I’m not sure if I believe it. In the probably hundreds of hours I’ve listened to him talking, I find him to be very honest about his past. He’s always been very open about what he did during his crazy years and his autobiography goes into more depth too.

Obviously this kind of thing isn’t the same as various heroin anecdotes that can be laughed about, but I would err on the side of “untrue”. I haven’t read the allegations, but I’d be surprised if it was based on anything more than being forward and persistent and nothing physical. Not that being pushy is ok, but it’s certainly not the worst thing he could have done.

On top of this, it’s well documented how despised he is by most of the UK news media, and the media also have a habit of making storms in a teacup and destroying people’s lives when they get a chance.

euan · September 2023

PLOP said:

I’m not sure if I believe it.

…

I haven’t read the allegations, but I’d be surprised if it was based on anything more than being forward and persistent and nothing physical.

Ok.

TeleMaster · September 2023

PLOP said:

I’ve always liked Russell Brand. I listened to his podcasts for years, watched him on Re:Brand, seen his stand up live… Not really keen on the weird conspiracy stuff of the last ~5 years but he’s still a smart, intelligent, funny and seemingly very caring person.
while lots of people accept whatever bad thing about him as true because of his persona, I’m not sure if I believe it. In the probably hundreds of hours I’ve listened to him talking, I find him to be very honest about his past. He’s always been very open about what he did during his crazy years and his autobiography goes into more depth too.
Obviously this kind of thing isn’t the same as various heroin anecdotes that can be laughed about, but I would err on the side of “untrue”. I haven’t read the allegations, but I’d be surprised if it was based on anything more than being forward and persistent and nothing physical. Not that being pushy is ok, but it’s certainly not the worst thing he could have done.

On top of this, it’s well documented how despised he is by most of the UK news media, and the media also have a habit of making storms in a teacup and destroying people’s lives when they get a chance.

Respectfully, I don't understand your mindset. You haven't even read the allegations but you're saying that you don't believe them anyway because you've listened to a few of his podcasts and you like the guy?

You haven't really put any effort in to be informed about the subject before you've made your mind up either way.

I don't think that there is any celebrity, or person I don't know who doesn't give a shit about me that could lead to me just dismissing allegations like this out of hand because I liked them.

Gilly · September 2023

PLOP said:

I’ve always liked Russell Brand. I listened to his podcasts for years, watched him on Re:Brand, seen his stand up live… Not really keen on the weird conspiracy stuff of the last ~5 years but he’s still a smart, intelligent, funny and seemingly very caring person.
while lots of people accept whatever bad thing about him as true because of his persona, I’m not sure if I believe it. In the probably hundreds of hours I’ve listened to him talking, I find him to be very honest about his past. He’s always been very open about what he did during his crazy years and his autobiography goes into more depth too.
Obviously this kind of thing isn’t the same as various heroin anecdotes that can be laughed about, but I would err on the side of “untrue”. I haven’t read the allegations, but I’d be surprised if it was based on anything more than being forward and persistent and nothing physical. Not that being pushy is ok, but it’s certainly not the worst thing he could have done.

On top of this, it’s well documented how despised he is by most of the UK news media, and the media also have a habit of making storms in a teacup and destroying people’s lives when they get a chance.

You’re entitled to your opinion of course but your argument appears to be “I like Russell Brand therefore I don’t believe it”. So it’s not really worthy of any consideration.

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