Should we get rid of Facepalms?

monquixote · August 2013

The magical thing about software is I can try it and if it's not useful I can bin it

digitalscream · August 2013

Drew_fx said:

Ultimately I think they should remain just a bit of fun, and not looked at as "data" as such, because the informational content is pretty low anyway.

I this spirit, I still like my original suggestion of the admins nominating a dick of the week, who automatically gets all of the facepalms for 24hrs

Drew_TNBD · August 2013

Aye, provided it isn't being printed up onto 4,000 DVD's!! (Can't wait till physical media dies)

octatonic · August 2013

digitalscream said:

Drew_fx said:

Ultimately I think they should remain just a bit of fun, and not looked at as "data" as such, because the informational content is pretty low anyway.

I this spirit, I still like my original suggestion of the admins nominating a dick of the week, who automatically gets all of the facepalms for 24hrs

Stop picking on bertie.

TTony · August 2013

I'm amazed (seriously) at the amount of discussion that this has generated. And the level of analysis. Sometimes I feel like I'm part of a sociology field study. Perhaps we are ...

When we built theFB, the "FacePalm" option was really intended to be a bit of light relief, to signify someone saying something a little daft, but nowhere near the DBAD "flagging" level of daftness. Yes, I said "D".

The other votes are all positives, so facepalm was to give a bit of balance, sort of like a "-1", I guess - which is how it adds into the fret scores. Perhaps we should just title it as "-1" and not try to be clever with descriptions. I think that was one of the suggestions made above.

We're still in early days of the forum, and after the initial bits of fun with the FacePalm option, I'd expect it to settle down and it to be used "sensibly" (ie no "how many facepalms can I collect" or "who did me, I demand to know" type posts).

My personal view is that I still think that we should have some sort of negative option for balance, largely because I think that pretty much everyone here is basically sensible and want theFB to work as a community and so it will be applied (and interpreted) sensibly.

And because I grew up in the days of Life on Mars when "things" were generally very different.

Not necessarily better, just different

I think we should leave it alone for a bit longer and see if usage settles down. There are probably more important (and positive!) things that we should be exercising our minds about if we want this place to continue to grow and develop as it has done in the first week.

Bucket · August 2013

I'm not too bothered about facepalms, but I think it'd be cool if (as others have suggested) they didn't detract from overall scores - so otherwise helpful or wise or funny people didn't get penalised if they posted a picture of a guitar someone didn't like, or whatever.

I use the "wow" button occasionally but I think we'd be better served by an "agree"-type thing. Atm I use the "wisdom" button as such, when appropriate.

EDIT: Also, what's going on with the fonts? There seem to be two or three different fonts (or font sizes at least) in action while posting on here, and there's no apparent rhyme or reason to which one you'll get in your post

You can see that here, in fact...

PolarityMan · August 2013

I have discovered a remarkable proof that facepalms should stay that this post is too small to contain.

(Seriosuly when I post it it says my post is too long)

PolarityMan · August 2013

I think that there's several ways to solve the Ambigous Facepalm Conundrum:

The first principle is that those who are frugal with their feedback ought to have the same net effect as those who are liberal. Therefore the magnitude of the delta applied to the frets score should be inversely proportional to the total quantity of frets left by that poster or more simply:

| δfretsreceived(x)| α 1/(Σ|fretsgiven(y)|)

Now it is tempting to initially presume that the magnitude of the value of each fret should be equal. However I see this as leading to inevitable inflation in fret scores. Assume for a moment that for an average poster the probabilities:

Then, if the "value" of each fret is equal then the total expected fret score, for a total post count of n, is given by:

Efret =pwisdom(x)*n + pwow(x)*n + plol(x) * n - pfacepalm(x) *n

Efret =3cn -cn = 2cn

PolarityMan · August 2013

Continued from above:

I think that ideally we want this to be a zero sum game, that is from a statistical point of view someone with an equal number of good posts to bad posts must have a zero fret score then we see that to balance the equation we rally need:

Efret = 0 = 3cn -3cn = pwisdom(x)*n + pwow(x)*n + plol(x) * n - 3 * pfacepalm(x) *n

And it follows:

So we must solve:

0 = |wisdom| + |wow| + |lol| - |facepalm|

Assuming we normalise the 3 positive frets with magnitude 1 then:

|wisdom| = | lol| = |wow| = 1

0 = 3 - |facepalm|

|facepalm| = 3.

So clearly facepalms should be worth 3 times as much as other badges. A compelling argument to keep them in play if ever I saw one.

Roland · August 2013

monquixote said:
No way, data is teh awesomez!

Drew_fx said:
Sure it is! But it's not always useful, or even reliable enough to make the kinds of determinations you speak of. Age old debate about quantity versus quality.

digitalscream said:

A high post count is a measure of how involved you are with a community - if you're doing a trade with somebody, it would mean that there's a higher likelihood that somebody on here would be able to help you get in touch should something go wrong. Even more so with the fret score.

No, it's not perfect, but it's more practical than written references and an Experian credit score.

Data is powerful when you can extract information from it, and increase knowledge on the basis of that information. The problem is that you get what you measure, which distorts behaviour. Some forums suffer from the "thanks for sharing" syndrome, where people post a useless comment to increase their post count. The "like" measure tends to highlight popular posts - which is useful. It also highlights popular people - which becomes cliquey (Is that a real word?), and can discourage debate.

My vote is to keep things really simple:

1. "post count" - which shows how active a user is.

2. "like" - which shows how interesting a post or thread is, but doesn't count towards a personal score.

The fact that we so many different views about "facepalm" probably means that it's not much use to us. It may be data, but it won't be convertible to information

Roland · August 2013

For the benefit of those wondering if this conversation is getting too technical, try the following example

Data - 5

Information - 5 weeks since I changed my strings

Knowledge - when my strings are 5 weeks old they usually sound crap, and cause tuning problems

Wisdom - I need to change my strings before Friday's gig

TTony · August 2013

Roland said:

For the benefit of those wondering if this conversation is getting too technical, try the following example
Data - 5
Information - 5 weeks since I changed my strings
Knowledge - when my strings are 5 weeks old they usually sound crap, and cause tuning problems
Wisdom - I need to change my strings before Friday's gig

Facepalm - I forgot to change my strings before Friday's gig.

OilCityPickups · August 2013

I think the facepalm is open to abuse and unnecessarily negative. On a site that is supposed to be about getting together and creating something better than we had on MR I think it's pointless and divisive.

jaygtr · August 2013

If face palms were added to your fret score that would take any negativity away from them as they are supposed to be light hearted.

and it would show that the recipient is an active member of the forum.

Oh and I've got 9 of the blasted things!

(

frankus · August 2013

I'd like to know where I got a facepalm is there a way of tracing it to the offending post?

ddlooping · August 2013

frankus said:

I'd like to know where I got a facepalm is there a way of tracing it to the offending post?

No but it might get implemented if the Facepalms stay.

You could then retaliate and the Facepalm Wars would begin.

TTony · August 2013

frankus said:

I'd like to know where I got a facepalm is there a way of tracing it to the offending post?

No easy way. You have to look at each of your posts, and see which one attracted the facepalm response. We're looking at how to implement some way of being able to identify which (of your own) posts got what response, but (thinking ahead just a little) such a system might have to be able to cope with hundreds or thousands of posts/frets in a few years time.

And if we do find a way of doing that, the identity of the awarder will not be disclosed.

OilCityPickups · August 2013

TTony said:

frankus said:

I'd like to know where I got a facepalm is there a way of tracing it to the offending post?

No easy way. You have to look at each of your posts, and see which one attracted the facepalm response. We're looking at how to implement some way of being able to identify which (of your own) posts got what response, but (thinking ahead just a little) such a system might have to be able to cope with hundreds or thousands of posts/frets in a few years time.
And if we do find a way of doing that, the identity of the awarder will not be disclosed.

I think the Facepalm simply reduces things to the level of a custard pie fight ...

wordy · August 2013

I did wonder if it would be cool supposing we could see, say the top 5 posts each month, which were awarded the most wisdom.

Especially if they were related to actually playing the guitar - technique and theory etc

I think that would be really cool.

Drew_TNBD · August 2013

wordy said:

I did wonder if it would be cool supposing we could see, say the top 5 posts each month, which were awarded the most wisdom.
Especially if they were related to actually playing the guitar - technique and theory etc
I think that would be really cool.

You'd end up getting the top 5 dick jokes for the month.

jaygtr · August 2013

Would it be possible to opt out of the face palm thing so a person could neither give or receive a face palm ?

So those who want to be sensible a mature can be, while those who want to be childish and immature ( and fun) are free to do so?

OilCityPickups · August 2013

jaygtr said:

Would it be possible to opt out of the face palm thing so a person could neither give or receive a face palm ?

So those who want to be sensible a mature can be, while those who want to be childish and immature ( and fun) are free to do so?

Then you'd get an 'us and them' two tier system, where those who didn't want to 'play' would be seen as spoil sports or fuddy-duddies ... and my fuddy isn't even slightly duddy

monquixote · August 2013

OK so far the one thing I think we have a reasonably strong majority in favour of is that the Facepalm should not decrease your "Frets" score.

I'm going to take that as an action to implement in the next release.

Sound OK?

ddlooping · August 2013

Sounds ok

jaygtr · August 2013

Works for me

octatonic · August 2013

Can we see who is rating us?

monquixote · August 2013

octatonic said:

Can we see who is rating us?

I think it's reasonable to have a list of which posts earned you the points, but if we remove anonymity (and I'm not saying we will ) I will have to clear the scores first as it is not fair to reveal things people thought would be hidden when they clicked on them.

TTony · August 2013

octatonic said:

Can we see who is rating us?

I'm really not in favour of that.

dindude · August 2013

TTony said:

octatonic said:

Can we see who is rating us?

I'm really not in favour of that.

I agree, I think it could lead to back-slapping on one side and tit-for-tat facepalming on the other.

Drew_TNBD · August 2013

Look... can't we just get rid of the bullshit altogether? It really isn't useful. Plus it's currently extremely spineless. If you disagree with my viewpoint, have the stones to admit it in public. Don't facepalm me and then walk on by.

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Should we get rid of Facepalms?

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