The Football Thread.

TTony · June 2022

guitars4you said:

Think it has been brewing for a while - devoid of ideas/plan especially in the final 3rd - You have Kane, Sterling, Foden, Mount, Grealish, Saka - All talented and with plenty of flare for their clubs - But just not bonding at all

How many players has Southgate selected in his time as manager? I'd be willing to bet that the number of players, averaged over games played in the period, is higher than any other England manager.

He seems to be constantly tinkering and picking new players, presumably to see how they perform. But what chance do they have - against decent opposition (which apparently includes Hungary now) - who have an established team ethos, bond and style of play*.

Right now, I'd back Wales to beat England.

*Actually, on second thoughts, England do seem to have an established style of play. See comment above re backwards, backwards, sideways, backwards, sideways, sideways ...

TTony · June 2022

guitars4you said:

thecolourbox said:

I stopped watching England matches in 2007. I get enough disappointment watching West Brom let alone watching a bunch of opposition players shoved together

I admit I'm club first and only take a passing interest in watching England

That's a sideways passing interest, presumably?

DesVegas · June 2022

What amazed me was England managed to let 4 goals in without Maguire on the pitch.

munckee · June 2022

That’s the main problem really if you’re bringing Maguire on to shore up your defence that’s telling.

Walker is one of the best right backs in the world, but he isn’t a central defender. Phillips who I generally like had a poor game last night.

Bowen hasn’t made much of an impact.

My other thought watching last night is that whilst the keeper wasn’t really at fault I thought Pickford may have stopped a couple of them going in.

TeleMaster · June 2022

With the racism episode, and the fact Hungary took advantage of the rules surrounding their attendance ban, you'd have hoped that England would use this as a chance for revenge, to show them that we mean business, but we completely capitulated.

I like Southgate and he's been our most successful manager since Ramsey, and we have done extraordinarily well, but my observation is that we have always relied on set pieces, find it difficult to score in open play and cannot beat the best teams. These players score week in week out against teams of a higher quality (it is my opinion that the Champions League and Premier League is of higher quality than the WC and Euros) so I do think that Southgate has done all he can with this team and the players know this as well. He's obviously a step down for a lot of them after playing with the likes of Klopp, Pep, Tuchel etc.

I believe that Southgate should lead the team out in Qatar but I don't think we'll do that well in the World Cup, and I expect that he will resign after it. If I were ruthless I'd say that we should make a manager change now because the signs don't for success don't look good, but I know they won't do that, and I think it would be unfair. But we aren't going to win it with this stale, negative style of play that doesn't seem to allow goalscoring players to score goals.

usedtobe · June 2022

Only found out they’d played after it was all over.. when I have seen England, I’ve found them quite boring to watch..

Teetonetal · June 2022

TeleMaster said:

With the racism episode, and the fact Hungary took advantage of the rules surrounding their attendance ban, you'd have hoped that England would use this as a chance for revenge, to show them that we mean business, but we completely capitulated.

I like Southgate and he's been our most successful manager since Ramsey, and we have done extraordinarily well, but my observation is that we have always relied on set pieces, find it difficult to score in open play and cannot beat the best teams. These players score week in week out against teams of a higher quality (it is my opinion that the Champions League and Premier League is of higher quality than the WC and Euros) so I do think that Southgate has done all he can with this team and the players know this as well. He's obviously a step down for a lot of them after playing with the likes of Klopp, Pep, Tuchel etc.

I believe that Southgate should lead the team out in Qatar but I don't think we'll do that well in the World Cup, and I expect that he will resign after it. If I were ruthless I'd say that we should make a manager change now because the signs don't for success don't look good, but I know they won't do that, and I think it would be unfair. But we aren't going to win it with this stale, negative style of play that doesn't seem to allow goalscoring players to score goals.

I think it's quite difficult to judge with these games. To my mind the players look physically spent. They need a rest and this was nothing more than an exercise in going through the motions. I would much preferred that they had a short training camp, then a holiday to come back ready for the pre season and WC in the winter.

That said, Southgate is too conservative for my taste - but he had a good WC in Russia and a Good EU so I think he deserves a shot at the next one - but unless he gets to the Semis or higher, I think that would be a good time to change, before some of our bigger players age too much.

TeleMaster · June 2022

Teetonetal said:

TeleMaster said:

With the racism episode, and the fact Hungary took advantage of the rules surrounding their attendance ban, you'd have hoped that England would use this as a chance for revenge, to show them that we mean business, but we completely capitulated.

I like Southgate and he's been our most successful manager since Ramsey, and we have done extraordinarily well, but my observation is that we have always relied on set pieces, find it difficult to score in open play and cannot beat the best teams. These players score week in week out against teams of a higher quality (it is my opinion that the Champions League and Premier League is of higher quality than the WC and Euros) so I do think that Southgate has done all he can with this team and the players know this as well. He's obviously a step down for a lot of them after playing with the likes of Klopp, Pep, Tuchel etc.

I believe that Southgate should lead the team out in Qatar but I don't think we'll do that well in the World Cup, and I expect that he will resign after it. If I were ruthless I'd say that we should make a manager change now because the signs don't for success don't look good, but I know they won't do that, and I think it would be unfair. But we aren't going to win it with this stale, negative style of play that doesn't seem to allow goalscoring players to score goals.

I think it's quite difficult to judge with these games. To my mind the players look physically spent. They need a rest and this was nothing more than an exercise in going through the motions. I would much preferred that they had a short training camp, then a holiday to come back ready for the pre season and WC in the winter.

That said, Southgate is too conservative for my taste - but he had a good WC in Russia and a Good EU so I think he deserves a shot at the next one - but unless he gets to the Semis or higher, I think that would be a good time to change, before some of our bigger players age too much.

I think the final positions were good but England didn't really play many teams of high quality in either of those tournaments. And a high reliance on set pieces masked the overall low standard of play from England. So in my opinion, its only a matter of time before we are knocked out early on.

axisus · June 2022

We have some incredible talent right now, I hope that we aren't going to waste them like we have previously. For me Southgate is too cautious, we should have won the Euros vs Italy.

It's a bit of a Meh tournament. I don't even know what the format is. We will judge them on the World cup.

NorthernGooner · June 2022

Amazing how many England players needed two touches to bring the ball under control because they're
so one footed. No composure on the ball when pressed which they were all game. You could see the Hungary players had a point to prove to put our overpaid mollycoddled lot in their place.

guitars4you · June 2022

munckee said:

That’s the main problem really if you’re bringing Maguire on to shore up your defence that’s telling.

Walker is one of the best right backs in the world, but he isn’t a central defender. Phillips who I generally like had a poor game last night.

Bowen hasn’t made much of an impact.

My other thought watching last night is that whilst the keeper wasn’t really at fault I thought Pickford may have stopped a couple of them going in.

As a Leeds fan you always want to see them do well for the country as well - But yes last night was not his best game - Not so sure he was at fault for the first goal, as Kane's fly hack did not help the issue - But brushed aside to easily on the build up for the 2nd goal

But again, last night was another change in the system for Southgate - Normally played 2 holding midfield players - Rice + KP - But last night tried it with just one holding player - Rice needed a rest as he'd played the 3 previous games, but could have been KP + 1 other, but he went with 4-3-3 last night at the start anyway

As @TeleMaster mentioned above - For many players, especially with the top 2-4 clubs, they work day to day with a manager who is streets ahead of Southgate - Players like Foden, Grealish, Mount, Saka are good players - But are they good when surrounded by the sheer talent within their club, like KDB etc - Maybe the overseas players in such clubs make Mount, Foden, Saka look better than they are - I actually don't think this is the case, but I do think we lack flair, vision and a proactive game plan

But as an overview it is a poxy tournament and with the schedule this year, that has just seen the end of a season, with pre-season only a few weeks away and the WC to come at the end of 2022, then the players should have been rested

mudslide73 · June 2022

They don't care about the tournament and all their mates are still in Dubai. It's like kids being asked to go into school during the six weeks. Also, you can't underestimate the effect playing in front of a load of Wolves fans has had on them

TeleMaster · June 2022

guitars4you said:

munckee said:

That’s the main problem really if you’re bringing Maguire on to shore up your defence that’s telling.

Walker is one of the best right backs in the world, but he isn’t a central defender. Phillips who I generally like had a poor game last night.

Bowen hasn’t made much of an impact.

My other thought watching last night is that whilst the keeper wasn’t really at fault I thought Pickford may have stopped a couple of them going in.

As a Leeds fan you always want to see them do well for the country as well - But yes last night was not his best game - Not so sure he was at fault for the first goal, as Kane's fly hack did not help the issue - But brushed aside to easily on the build up for the 2nd goal

But again, last night was another change in the system for Southgate - Normally played 2 holding midfield players - Rice + KP - But last night tried it with just one holding player - Rice needed a rest as he'd played the 3 previous games, but could have been KP + 1 other, but he went with 4-3-3 last night at the start anyway

As @TeleMaster mentioned above - For many players, especially with the top 2-4 clubs, they work day to day with a manager who is streets ahead of Southgate - Players like Foden, Grealish, Mount, Saka are good players - But are they good when surrounded by the sheer talent within their club, like KDB etc - Maybe the overseas players in such clubs make Mount, Foden, Saka look better than they are - I actually don't think this is the case, but I do think we lack flair, vision and a proactive game plan

But as an overview it is a poxy tournament and with the schedule this year, that has just seen the end of a season, with pre-season only a few weeks away and the WC to come at the end of 2022, then the players should have been rested

My brother believes that fatigue is a real issue and that two weeks isn't enough of a break for players who are playing multiple times a week, running 10k each time with training in between.

Personally, I think that's just a huge justification for malaise, poor tactics and poor playing.

In Europe they have a winter break which is about two weeks and this is meant to be the answer. So, is two weeks enough then or not?

Most of the players in the England squad are not playing twice a week, most of them either aren't playing in Europe at all or got knocked out, and many got knocked out of the domestic cups too.

Many clubs at the highest level, like top 6, have huge squads and they rotate heavily, and essentially have a team for the league and a team for europe/cups.

And many countries have very similar playing schedules as the UK and they perform to a higher standard and often with a team that isn't anywhere near as good.

They always talked about fatigue during the Beckham, Shearer, Scholes, Ferdinand era, and media pressure as the reason for constant failure. But now they basically say it was because of poor squad integration and rivalry that disabled them from working well together. So personally, I accept that it can be an issue but that it is pretty overblown and rolled out as an excuse for poor playing and poor tactics. Two weeks ago these players were running their socks off to win the league and this week, after two weeks off they lose their ability to run, track back, complete passes? AFTER the break? Makes zero sense to me.

munckee · June 2022

I also think we are missing a scholes type player to play the ball through to all this up front talent. Ironically the best we have at this is Kane but he is too important up front.

MagicPigDetective · June 2022

Having watched Wales' Nations Cup matches, the teams involved seemed to care about these games and took them seriously, despite being fatigued and probably not happy to be playing so many matches at the end of a long season. This does suggest England has an issue with attitude and team spirit... as well as Southgate's man management and coaching.

As a Wales fan, I hope Southgate stays on!

bertie · June 2022

I recorded the highlights of Sunday's game - so bad I had to watch it in FF mode (TBH it was like the old Pathe newsreels), and was still bored shitless

TeleMaster · June 2022

munckee said:

I also think we are missing a scholes type player to play the ball through to all this up front talent. Ironically the best we have at this is Kane but he is too important up front.

I think we have plenty of players who can do this but they aren't allowed the freedom to be creative.

I think that a big problem with how we play Kane is that he is normally a player who will run all over the pitch, pick the ball up, create chances. People think he's a stereotypical centre forward who gets tap ins but he's really not at all and he's strangled by Southgate's apparent insistence that he doesn't do this.

bertie · June 2022

as primarily an egg-chaser that knows a little about footy, seems to me.......... we "fuck about" with it too much, especially when we're in the top 1/3 of the pitch, sometimes more than happy to pass it (20 times) all the way back to our keeper, to start again................. no-one seems to want to take them on, classic "winger" stylee, or just stick a cross over, see what comes.......... surely if Southpark wants to play Kane as a "Lineker" then theres always going to be someone in the box ?

too simplistic ?

munckee · June 2022

bertie said:

as primarily an egg-chaser that knows a little about footy, seems to me.......... we "fuck about" with it too much, especially when we're in the top 1/3 of the pitch, sometimes more than happy to pass it (20 times) all the way back to our keeper, to start again................. no-one seems to want to take them on, classic "winger" stylee, or just stick a cross over, see what comes.......... surely if Southpark wants to play Kane as a "Lineker" then theres always going to be someone in the box ?

too simplistic ?

We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

bertie · June 2022

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

at the expense of direct attack (and defence !!!) it would seem .................. no good controlling possession if you cant score............

TeleMaster · June 2022

bertie said:

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

at the expense of direct attack (and defence !!!) it would seem .................. no good controlling possession if you cant score............

That's probably a seperate issue. If you can't score with all the possession I doubt you can score with none.

bertie · June 2022

TeleMaster said:

bertie said:

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

at the expense of direct attack (and defence !!!) it would seem .................. no good controlling possession if you cant score............

That's probably a seperate issue. If you can't score with all the possession I doubt you can score with none.

own goal ?

cant win anything with 0-0 draws - taking the possession thing to its extreme

TTony · June 2022

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

Indeed.

According to the match stats last night, England had 69% possession.

We had 10 shots, 2 on target (wasn't one a header from one of their defenders?). Hungary had 6 shots, 5 on target, and scored 4.

Possession doesn't win games.

I "possess" a lot of guitars. Doesn't make me a good guitarist.

TeleMaster · June 2022

TTony said:

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

Indeed.

According to the match stats last night, England had 69% possession.

We had 10 shots, 2 on target (wasn't one a header from one of their defenders?). Hungary had 6 shots, 5 on target, and scored 4.

Possession doesn't win games.

I "possess" a lot of guitars. Doesn't make me a good guitarist.

In your case, I'm sure it does.

munckee · June 2022

TTony said:

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

Indeed.

According to the match stats last night, England had 69% possession.

We had 10 shots, 2 on target (wasn't one a header from one of their defenders?). Hungary had 6 shots, 5 on target, and scored 4.

Possession doesn't win games.

I "possess" a lot of guitars. Doesn't make me a good guitarist.

I don't disagree i'm just stating why all the back and sideways passing. We have confused effective possession with having the ball. With our dearth of central defenders it has probably served us well in reality

UnclePsychosis · June 2022

England supporters don't deserve Gareth Southgate.

Man has unified the squad, got them acting as a team instead of a set of disparate individuals, has completely turned around the relationship of the players with the fans, and most importantly of all came within a penalty shootout of actually fucking winning something...

... And the knives are out after a few disappointing performances in what are, for England, some meaningless kickabouts. English fans need to check themselves ffs.

thecolourbox · June 2022

bertie said:

TeleMaster said:

bertie said:

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

at the expense of direct attack (and defence !!!) it would seem .................. no good controlling possession if you cant score............

That's probably a seperate issue. If you can't score with all the possession I doubt you can score with none.

own goal ?

cant win anything with 0-0 draws - taking the possession thing to its extreme

I do remember on one occasion my team West Brom beating one of the good teams despite us not having a shot on target. Opposition had about 85% possession but I think we fluked an own goal from a set piece or something like that. I thought it was Man City but I can't find any reference to that online so it must have been somebody else

@mudslide can you remember who that was? Must have been Pulis era where we played no football for 3 years?

TeleMaster · June 2022

UnclePsychosis said:

England supporters don't deserve Gareth Southgate.

Man has unified the squad, got them acting as a team instead of a set of disparate individuals, has completely turned around the relationship of the players with the fans, and most importantly of all came within a penalty shootout of actually fucking winning something...

... And the knives are out after a few disappointing performances in what are, for England, some meaningless kickabouts. English fans need to check themselves ffs.

Yes. It may just be that. I hope so. But if that's the case, say so. You also have to consider the cost that people are paying to watch them, and if they don't give two shits let us know so we don't spend our hard earned money on a shocking performance when we expect it to be a competitive game.

I spend a lot of money on my season ticket. The beer is £6 a pint. If you don't look like you're trying I feel that fans have a right to complain about it respectfully and appropriately.

guitars4you · June 2022

TTony said:

munckee said:
We were for many years criticized for being too direct and not being able to control possession in a game so that’s why they are being coached to do.

Indeed.

According to the match stats last night, England had 69% possession.

We had 10 shots, 2 on target (wasn't one a header from one of their defenders?). Hungary had 6 shots, 5 on target, and scored 4.

Possession doesn't win games.

I "possess" a lot of guitars. Doesn't make me a good guitarist.

didn't Leicester win the PL with the lowest recorded possession - Many matches they had less than 50% possession - Hit them on the break was their style

bertie · June 2022

perhaps we should go back to "the Watford hoof"

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