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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 10838
    Is Mike Brearley available?

    If they give it to Broad then someone will have to be given the job of telling him that he's bowling too short. 
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  • sixstringsuppliessixstringsupplies Frets: 423
    edited April 2022 tFB Trader
    I’d rather they went extreme left field. A debutant. 

    Stokes has been part of the leadership group for 5 years anyway. Might as well go for a complete change.

    Not quite a debutant but James Vince’s name is in the hat. But he hasn’t played a test in 4 years.

    Graeme Smith in 2003 had played about 5 tests when he was made captain. 

    Bit of a pickle I wouldn't want to be the new MD of England cricket. 

    Hence why I reckon they’ll kick it down the road and give it to Broad for a year.
    For Modders, Makers, Players

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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 2457
    Lots of people calling him a poor captain, yet he has the most wins of any England captain ever

    totally hamstrung by rubbish batting for 2 years, COVID and everything that goes with it and bowlers than can’t go 2 tests in a row.

    plus test batsman of the year.

    no wonder he wanted to stay, poor bloke must just be thinking “I’m not going to resign when everyone in the team and the management aren5 up to my standards”  

    I think they told him to resign rather than be sacked because of the grief that the media would have given them
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  • NorthernGoonerNorthernGooner Frets: 183
    edited April 2022
    Gassage said:
    I find this strange, given they made 'outstanding progress' in the West Indies.
    It's the same 'outstanding progress' we're making under Eddie Jones.  s
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    edited May 2022
    Folk might have seen people on Twitter complaining about the lack of Broad and Anderson in the County Championship this week. I would suggest that their absence from county duty is entirely related to this announcement from Root. 

    sev112 said:
    Lots of people calling him a poor captain, yet he has the most wins of any England captain ever

    Rather than going by wins, go by the wins per Test captained ratio (Tests captained/Tests won). 

    Root: 63/27 = 2.33
    Cook: 59/24 = 2.45
    Strauss:50/24 = 2.08
    Vaughan: 51/26 = 1.96

    The records of Vaughan, Strauss, Cook, and Root: Tests captained, wins, losses, draws: 

    51    26      11        14
    50    24       11       15
    59      24       22      13
    63        27      25      11

    Vaughan and Strauss both had more draws than defeats. This trend slid under Cook and nosedived under Root. A good side doesn't just get the wins: it staves off defeat as well. 



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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    Good to see Rob Key's appointment has excited the forum cricket fans :D



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  • Doesn't matter who gets the job, how do you polish a turd?  B)
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    Doesn't matter who gets the job, how do you polish a turd?  B)

    You get it sponsored by a brand of crisps, you get an Aussie to coach it, and then give away free tickets for games held during the summer holidays... 



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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2124
    Good to see Rob Key's appointment has excited the forum cricket fans :D
    Don't really know what to think about it tbh. I guess it means Crawley's place in the side is secure for a while.
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 10838
    We can only hope that Keysie has the good fortune that others have had before him and finds a couple of decent, disenchanted South Africans.
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  • StuckfastStuckfast Frets: 2124
    Does Key actually have much coaching or management experience? 
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    Stuckfast said:
    Good to see Rob Key's appointment has excited the forum cricket fans :D
    Don't really know what to think about it tbh. I guess it means Crawley's place in the side is secure for a while.

    Definitely. Will be interesting seeing how he goes in the next round of CC games after his opening partner's astounding start to the season. 



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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 10961
    Stuckfast said:
    Good to see Rob Key's appointment has excited the forum cricket fans :D
    Don't really know what to think about it tbh. I guess it means Crawley's place in the side is secure for a while.

    Definitely. Will be interesting seeing how he goes in the next round of CC games after his opening partner's astounding start to the season. 

    Said opening partner made 89 to add to his previous scores.  How long until he is being talked about for England?
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    crunchman said:
    Said opening partner made 89 to add to his previous scores.  How long until he is being talked about for England?
    https://www.espn.com/cricket/story/_/id/33772384/county-championship-2022-ben-compton-kent-breakthrough-offers-hope-late-developers

    "Rejected more times than he cares to remember, Compton has certainly been making up for lost time. Burns, MD of London County Cricket Club, where he offers mentorship in business and sport, feels the county system is at fault.

    "I told Ben he had to work very hard because the way the system is designed it is a closed shop," Burns told ESPNcricinfo. "It is designed to recognise top talent at a young age - the next Joe Root, the next Ian Bell. But you don't need to find that player - they are a class apart. The real test of a system is whether it helps a player who is not outstanding at a young age to make the cut.

    "What happens is because lots of money and time, not to say careers, is invested in that academy process, it becomes very exclusive. I'm not saying it is consciously exclusive, but late developers find it harder to break in. Players outside the system get disregarded."


    A system rooted in academy progression is precisely what it is. After getting the giggles about Simon Heffer's pathetic piece in the Telegraph discussing woke Wisden, I checked over the recent Somerset 2nd XI game against Middlesex. The educational background of those Somerset players: red dot = privately educated, M = Millfield. 

    https://i.imgur.com/a1zSaOA.png


    Restrictive pathways et al. 





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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    And a little comparison of actual and potential England openers this spring... 

    Sibley               74 runs in 3 innings
    Crawley            95 runs in 4 innings
    Burns                113 runs in 5 innings


    = 282 runs across 12 innings

    Cook                 247 runs in 6 innings
    Compton           464 runs in 5 innings

    Alex Lees has had one innings, 182* at Cardiff. 






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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 8492
    edited April 2022
    Compton was taken on by Kent to try and help a flaky top order with some grit. We know that Crawley goes hard and scores big 1 in 10, Bell-Drummond has a horrid championship record for such a talented player and we have stroke makers like Cox, Stevens and when available Billings. Compton has been given a licence to score at a strike rate of 30 as it fits with the rest of our team.
    Way too soon to talk about international, despite his name and great start. This is a guy who couldn’t get a county gig before he joined Kent
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 10961
    chris78 said:
    Compton was taken on by Kent to try and help a flaky top order with some grit. We know that Crawley goes hard and scores big 1 in 10, Bell-Drummond has a horrid championship record for such a talented player and we have stroke makers like Cox, Stevens and when available Billings. Compton has been given a licence to score at a strike rate of 30 as it fits with the rest of our team.
    Way too soon to talk about international, despite his name and great start. This is a guy who couldn’t get a county gig before he joined Kent

    The article that @Heartfeltdawn linked to above about how hard it is for people outside the system to break in is a large part of the reason why he couldn't get a county gig before.  If Compton couldn't get a shot (with the added benefit of his surname) then how many other other talents are we missing out on?

    Bowlers may work him out over the next few months, but it's pretty plain that the system has failed in his case.
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  • NorthernGoonerNorthernGooner Frets: 183
    edited April 2022
    crunchman said:
    Said opening partner made 89 to add to his previous scores.  How long until he is being talked about for England?
    https://www.espn.com/cricket/story/_/id/33772384/county-championship-2022-ben-compton-kent-breakthrough-offers-hope-late-developers

    "Rejected more times than he cares to remember, Compton has certainly been making up for lost time. Burns, MD of London County Cricket Club, where he offers mentorship in business and sport, feels the county system is at fault.

    "I told Ben he had to work very hard because the way the system is designed it is a closed shop," Burns told ESPNcricinfo. "It is designed to recognise top talent at a young age - the next Joe Root, the next Ian Bell. But you don't need to find that player - they are a class apart. The real test of a system is whether it helps a player who is not outstanding at a young age to make the cut.

    "What happens is because lots of money and time, not to say careers, is invested in that academy process, it becomes very exclusive. I'm not saying it is consciously exclusive, but late developers find it harder to break in. Players outside the system get disregarded."


    A system rooted in academy progression is precisely what it is. After getting the giggles about Simon Heffer's pathetic piece in the Telegraph discussing woke Wisden, I checked over the recent Somerset 2nd XI game against Middlesex. The educational background of those Somerset players: red dot = privately educated, M = Millfield. 

    https://i.imgur.com/a1zSaOA.png


    Restrictive pathways et al. 


    I take your point about restrictive pathways up to a point but you won't find talent if young people aren't playing the game or 
    not encouraged to play. I live in a leafy Cheshire small town which has a high school with a large open playing/sports field.
    There is even an all weather cricket pitch, It's never used, the schoolkids occasionally mince around in the summer playing mixed sex rounders  in a supervised  games period and that's it. They seem to play no competitive sport at all. Never seen a cricket bat or ball out there ever. If that school was in Australia India or South Africa   the kids would be out there all day playing. If it wasn't for independent schools I don't think we'd produce any players period unfortunately.,
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    edited April 2022
    I take your point about restrictive pathways up to a point but you won't find talent if young people aren't playing the game or 
    not encouraged to play.

    In areas where the game isn't played, that is quite true. You can't find talent if there is no talent on display. But that's not what the restrictive pathways is about. Take the Gloucestershire 2nd XI versus Warwickshire 2nd XI game today. Red dots for privately educated, green dots for non-privately, other blobs = no idea. 

    https://i.imgur.com/vGvHsWr.png
    https://i.imgur.com/WKtaJBa.png

    Across the three sides I've researched in this thread, that's 33 players in total. 3 unknown educations, 8 non-private educations, and 22 privately educated players. Now your leafy bit of Cheshire might have a small talent puddle: I don't think the same is true for Bristol or Birmingham. 

    NorthernGooner said: If it wasn't for independent schools I don't think we'd produce any players period unfortunately.,
    It's a bit different up North. Durham's 2nd XI game recently: 

    https://i.imgur.com/v2YtU4I.png

    I'm not calling for independent schools to stop what they are doing. I'm calling for the scouting network to be improved and expanded. Neil Burns called it absolutely right. 



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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    crunchman said:
    The article that @Heartfeltdawn linked to above about how hard it is for people outside the system to break in is a large part of the reason why he couldn't get a county gig before.  If Compton couldn't get a shot (with the added benefit of his surname) then how many other other talents are we missing out on?

    Bowlers may work him out over the next few months, but it's pretty plain that the system has failed in his case.
    Folk might also remember the payment rules from the past

    "The ECB have already instigated several incentive schemes to promote the selection of young, England-qualified players as they limit the freedom of counties to allocate their funds as they see fit.

    Clubs are financially rewarded for including England-qualified players in Championship and List A cricket, with the optimum payments being made if two of the players are aged under 22 and three more are under 26 on April 1 of that year. The ECB also lobbied for greater work permit restrictions designed to make it harder to players who are not England qualified, including Kolpak registrations and overseas players."

    That automatically made it a little harder for players over 26. 




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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 10961
    Good point.  It also lowered the standard of county cricket with a number of grizzled old pros being jettisoned in favour of raw 19 year olds.  That low standard is part of the reason young players coming into the test team are struggling because there is such a big difference in stepping up.
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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 8492
    crunchman said:
    chris78 said:
    Compton was taken on by Kent to try and help a flaky top order with some grit. We know that Crawley goes hard and scores big 1 in 10, Bell-Drummond has a horrid championship record for such a talented player and we have stroke makers like Cox, Stevens and when available Billings. Compton has been given a licence to score at a strike rate of 30 as it fits with the rest of our team.
    Way too soon to talk about international, despite his name and great start. This is a guy who couldn’t get a county gig before he joined Kent

    The article that @Heartfeltdawn linked to above about how hard it is for people outside the system to break in is a large part of the reason why he couldn't get a county gig before.  If Compton couldn't get a shot (with the added benefit of his surname) then how many other other talents are we missing out on?

    Bowlers may work him out over the next few months, but it's pretty plain that the system has failed in his case.
    Yeah, couldn't agree more. I'm hoping he won't be "worked out." He's got an amazing record in the 2nds and plays like a real opener. I'm all for an opener spending time at the wicket, tiring out bowlers and giving the middle order chance to score quickly against a soft ball and a tired attack. As much as I think he's a talented kid, Crawley could learn a lot from his Kent opening partner
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    crunchman said:
    Good point.  It also lowered the standard of county cricket with a number of grizzled old pros being jettisoned in favour of raw 19 year olds.  That low standard is part of the reason young players coming into the test team are struggling because there is such a big difference in stepping up.
    There was a point with Australia when concerns about the talent coming through were discussed, and one reason put forward was that young players in their teens were playing age group representative cricket and playing far less grade cricket ie. playing against their own peer group and far less playing against the older experienced quality players. 

    Andrew Wu had an excellent piece in the SMH five months ago discussing these very issues:

    https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/young-talent-crime-where-is-australia-s-generation-next-20211104-p5963a.html

    "Chappell points to India as the world benchmark for developing players. Fielding what many derided as a second XI, India toppled a full-strength Australia last summer because, Chappell said, their next tier of players had been hardened by numerous games in different conditions.

    “Historically, Australia has been one of the best at developing young players and keeping them in the system, but I think that’s changed,” Chappell wrote in his recent book Not Out.

    “I’m seeing a bunch of young players with great potential who are in limbo. That’s unacceptable. We cannot afford to lose one player.

    “India have got their act together and that’s largely because Rahul Dravid has picked our brains, seen what we’re doing and replicated it in India with their much larger base.

    “I think we’ve already lost our position as the best at identifying talent and bringing it through. I think England are doing it better than us now, and India are doing it better than us also.”

    Waugh says there is plenty of talent coming through but wonders whether the pathway system is helping players build the mental resilience for top-level cricket and if it has taken the fun out of the game for youngsters. The former captain has a more intimate knowledge of the system than most, having watched his son Austin come through it and step away from the game.

    His point about resilience was shared by several insiders spoken to by this masthead.

    “How do you cope when there will be down times? When you’re young and in these systems it’s very positive, everyone thinks they will make it, but the reality is it’s quite tough to make it,” Waugh told the Herald and The Age. “Maybe manage those expectations a bit.

    “I’d like to see more fun, more kids develop their natural skills and not be training four or five days a week when they’re 14 to 16. The pathway system is good, but it’s not the be all and end all. Let’s not get them to grow up too quickly.”


    Chappell is wrong about England bringing through talent as we've discussed on this thread many times and his notion of scrapping state-based first class cricket and replacing it with Big Bash franchises is utterly stupid, but he is right about India taking the lead.




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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    chris78 said:
    Yeah, couldn't agree more. I'm hoping he won't be "worked out." He's got an amazing record in the 2nds and plays like a real opener. I'm all for an opener spending time at the wicket, tiring out bowlers and giving the middle order chance to score quickly against a soft ball and a tired attack. As much as I think he's a talented kid, Crawley could learn a lot from his Kent opening partner
    Strange times indeed looking at folk on Twitter scoffing at the idea of Compton in the Test side based on sheer weight of runs whilst simultaneously endorsing the notion of Crawley being vice captain to Stokes despite averaging 28 for nation overall and 23 this season whilst his opening partner makes early spring hay.





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  • chris78chris78 Frets: 8492
    Both Kent openers out early today. Crawley has zero form going into the tests.
    Unsurprisingly Stokes appointed captain, simply because we have no other options
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 21788
    chris78 said:
    Both Kent openers out early today. Crawley has zero form going into the tests.
    Unsurprisingly Stokes appointed captain, simply because we have no other options
    But we do. We're not daring enough to try them out though and so our failure to develop young players coming into the Test side over the last seven years (and that includes future captain development) means we're here. Still, at least it's not Sam Billings. 

    The Botham and Flintoff records as captain: 
     
    12 games: 0 victories, 4 defeats, 8 draws.
    11 games: 2 victories, 7 defeats, 2 draws. 

    Considering the calendar over the next two years in Test and short form and T100 arenas and the shitty state of English cricket at the minute, then Stokes maintaining his on-field performance level and captaining England successfully would be a bigger miracle than anything seen at Headingley in 2019. 



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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader
    chris78 said:

    Unsurprisingly Stokes appointed captain, simply because we have no other options
    And that is a sad state of affairs - You have to be a fan of his past achievements and competitive  approach - But somehow it is a bad move - He doesn't come across well when interviewed - His 'court case' does not sit well with me - He might have been acquitted but he was still there acting the yob - He is often injured - And can't help feeling we are back to Botham/Flintoff again 

    I don't have the answer, but back of my mind appointing a 'potential new comer' aka Graeme Smith might have been worth looking at 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 10961
    There is a good chance that Stokes won't get through the summer without getting injured.
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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 12794
    tFB Trader
    crunchman said:
    There is a good no chance that Stokes won't will get through the summer without getting injured.
    fixed that for you 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 10961
    So what is plan B if/when he gets injured?
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