Rubiales: "I'm not going to resign"

Cols · August 2023

Hattigol said:

1. Is that relevant?

Yes.

2. Can you imagine the sheer OUTRAGE if someone asked whether Hermoso 'enjoyed it'?

They didn’t have to. She freely volunteered this information directly after the event.

https://youtu.be/1PyVlJblP3k?si=DryR6UDYcDaRkpeq

(To busy to watch - she did not)

3. No, I didn't.

I am very sorry to hear that.

Tannin · August 2023

menamestom said:

Would the people that think it’s okay be okay with somebody doing that to your missus at work?

If I did it at work to a woman I’d be sacked, rightly fucking so if you ask me.

Exactly spot on.

JerkMoans · August 2023

Spanish FA goes full DARVO…

https://rfef.es/en/noticias/official-statement-from-rfef-in-response-to-futpro

GoFish · August 2023

Hattigol said:

1. Is that relevant?

2. Can you imagine the sheer OUTRAGE if someone asked whether Hermoso 'enjoyed it'?

3. No, I didn't.

Was she your boss?

Stratavarious · August 2023

Hattigol · August 2023

GoFish said:

Hattigol said:

1. Is that relevant?

2. Can you imagine the sheer OUTRAGE if someone asked whether Hermoso 'enjoyed it'?

3. No, I didn't.

Was she your boss?

No. Is employment status relevant to sexual assault?

GoFish · August 2023

Hattigol said:

GoFish said:

Hattigol said:

1. Is that relevant?

2. Can you imagine the sheer OUTRAGE if someone asked whether Hermoso 'enjoyed it'?

3. No, I didn't.

Was she your boss?

No. Is employment status relevant to sexual assault?

It is relevant to misconduct and indecency in employment regs - would you say you had been a victim of a sexual assault?

Hattigol · August 2023

Thanks for the employment law lesson.

I would say it was at least as bad and probably worse than the Hermoso situation. So you tell me, was that sexual assault? Should I, and all of us, be outraged?

JerkMoans · August 2023

FIFA getting in on the act…

GoFish · August 2023

Hattigol said:

Thanks for the employment law lesson.

I would say it was at least as bad and probably worse than the Hermoso situation. So you tell me, was that sexual assault? Should I, and all of us, be outraged?

My friend, only you can decide whether to be outraged or not.

Personally, I am not. I don't think it's "sexual assault" and I wouldn't call it that. In fact I didn't.

I do think it's inappropriate behaviour, an abuse of position, a breach of employment standards and , most importantly, just in bad taste.

Some cultures are more physical. I do note that he hugged and kissed everyone. The moment with Hermoso was fleeting. None of this makes it alright. Upon being asked about this, immediately conceding that he "got it wrong in the moment" or whatever would have gone a long way towards mending relations instead of doubling down and attacking everyone in what was, frankly, a pretty naked display of minimisation and deflection.

If you think that unwanted physical contact by a woman on New Year's eve is the same as that by a man, who is employed in a public facing position of power who excuses his actions by railing against "fake feminism", then we'll probably find it difficult to meet in the middle.

1)I was no big deal

2)She didn't stop me

3)Emotions were running high

4)That's just how I celebrate

5)I'm not in the wrong and I won't change.

6)It's a witch-hunt to make me and the FA look bad

7)“Fake feminism does not seek justice, doesn’t seek the truth, doesn’t care about people. I repeat, they are preparing an execution."

Do you think he starts looking just a bit scummy at any of these points?

Wazmeister · August 2023

Tannin said:

Wazmeister said:

Good for him.

Trial by media and social media simply has to stop.

It's not "trial by media" here, it's an entitled, arrogant arsehole with an attitude problem so bad that the athletes themselves - you know, the ones who actually play the game and do the hard yards - they flat refuse to work for him any longer.

When 79 of your co-workers (every one of them more important to the team than you are) all walk out on you ... Scumbag, it's not them. It's you.

No, its trila by media… hence, why we are all ‘discussing’ it…

Chalky · August 2023

Wazmeister said:

Tannin said:

Wazmeister said:

Good for him.

Trial by media and social media simply has to stop.

It's not "trial by media" here, it's an entitled, arrogant arsehole with an attitude problem so bad that the athletes themselves - you know, the ones who actually play the game and do the hard yards - they flat refuse to work for him any longer.

When 79 of your co-workers (every one of them more important to the team than you are) all walk out on you ... Scumbag, it's not them. It's you.

No, its trila by media… hence, why we are all ‘discussing’ it…

"Somebody does something wrong and it is caught on mainstream media cameras".

That's not a statement - that is the Prosecution's case.

Then that is turned over to the jury of social media, who always start by shouting "guilty" the loudest they can in order to earn their Virtue Signaller's badge of merit this week. (The slower ones compete for "most outraged" consolation prizes.)

So now that the defendant has been found guilty, we then move to "talking head experts" in the mainstream media to pronounce the sentence and punishment.

Wake me up when its over...

Moloch · August 2023

I wish I could say that is surprises me that, on a forum with an average age of "Oooooh, me back's gone," there are men arguing in favour of forgiving casual sexual assault of a female employee by a male senior manager, but it really doesn't.

Wazmeister · August 2023

Moloch said:

I wish I could say that is surprises me that, on a forum with an average age of "Oooooh, me back's gone," there are men arguing in favour of forgiving casual sexual assault of a female employee by a male senior manager, but it really doesn't.

Well, everybody’s backs have gone now…the whole lot have resigned.

Emp_Fab · August 2023

I remember reading an article before the final about how trivially women's football was taken in Spain and how, in comparison to the UK media supporting the Lionesses, Spanish media were barely covering the event at all - and how it was all down to the traditional Spanish macho culture. Rubiales's behaviour has just confirmed that grabbing a woman and kissing her without her consent doesn't even register as a problem with him. The idiotic lies afterwards, claiming she verbally agreed, was laughable though. He should be sacked for that alone, never mind the grabbing and kissing.

You've only got to look at him as he's waiting for the next female body he can grab coming along the line, just after he slaps Hermoso.... That's a man who is more overjoyed at getting to grab lots of women than he is about a football game.

Maybe it's not such a big deal for some British viewers, but for the women of Spain who have lived their lives in a culture that is significantly more male dominated than ours, and continue to do so, winning the World Cup was a massive step forward for feminism and put them on the world stage in a big way. Their crowning moment should have been for the women alone and Rubiales behaving like that was, in effect, a man saying "yeah, but I can still do this to you". I have no doubt that thought never crossed his mind for a second.... it's ingrained in him and the macho culture he's a part of. He felt absolutely entitled to kiss the players. It is his right - not just because he was head of the F.A., but because he is a man.

I can't speak on behalf of Spanish women, obviously, but my take is that they are not so much angry about the actual kiss itself, but the fact that it was the pinnacle of their achievements, their moment of glory for their country and the women of their country and here was a man, yet again, showing the world that he felt he could do anything he wanted to the women, because he is a man. If he'd not kissed Hermoso but patted the players on the head instead, there would have been the same uproar - and rightly so.

Timcito · August 2023

I lived in Spain for six years in the 80s - two in Madrid, one in Pamplona and three in Segovia and physical contact there was not the same as in the UK and other parts of northern Europe. In the UK, physical contact, especially kissing, is a delicate area. I sometimes joke with students that even today, if someone accidentally bumps into me in the supermarket, I will probably apologize to them! Students in Spain once sat aghast when I told them that after a year of not seeing my father, we would shake hands (a warm handshake, I hasten to add!) at the airport instead of hugging. In Spain, however, I often felt that my personal space was being invaded and my person manhandled! If I was in a bar and an acquaintance saw me, they would position themselves right up in my face, hold my arm as they spoke, share the breathy contents of their breakfast with me, and generally seem to 'envelop' me during the conversation. I would frequently find myself discreetly backing away to create a bit more physical distance.

And then there's kissing. Back in the 80s, and I have no reason to assume much has changed since then, if a man was ever introduced to a woman, she would kiss him on both cheeks. Female acquaintances kissed each other and kissed men on both cheeks whenever they met, and, during the conversation, there would be lots of pawing, hand-holding, back-slapping, you name it - even men to men, although men did not kiss each other. In the UK, as we know, even a kiss on the cheek is rare. I remember my mother might kiss her very close friends once on the cheek if they hadn't met for months. My father never kissed anyone apart from my mother and his mother-in-law.

Another thing is that Spanish people are, in general, pretty hot-blooded and emotional. They shout, retort, laugh loudly, gesticulate, and curse in language that might strip the wallpaper from the walls. They would often say the British were 'cold' and lacked 'marcha', which roughly meant a kind of spirit of spontaneous joy and zest for enjoyment.

As for the personal 'crotch grabbing' that Rubiales performed for all to see. That gesture is very common not just in Spain but in some other Mediterranean countries, too. I remember seeing men in the street brazenly 'handle themselves' in full view of anyone and everyone in the street, bar. or wherever. I found it crude and machista, and I once commented on it to a Greek girlfriend I once had. She found nothing offensive in it and said it was probably due to the size of their 'endowment,' which might be constricted uncomfortably within their pants. That was part of the message, I think: "Hey everyone, I've got a really big one!"

So there is a cultural context to this. Rubiales claimed he was in an emotional state, and kissing is much more common in Spain than in many other countries. But a kiss on the lips? That is different and particularly one inflicted by a big bruiser-looking guy like Rubiales. I did occasionally see acquaintances kiss on the lips, but it was rare, and I never saw a man grab a woman's face a stick one on her in the manner that Rubiales did with Hermoso. For me, it bespeaks a message of male dominance more than anything else. The girls have done well in their little game - credit where credit's due - but this is still a piece of tush, let's face it. The reaction of the women's team and from large sections of the population testify to this. Maybe, as some have suggested here and given the more 'tactile' nature of Spanish culture, it's been blown out of proportion, but still ... the world has moved on, and this kind of behaviour ain't kosher no more.

Shrews · August 2023

If any of us did it at work, even in the height of our little world excitement e.g winning a contract, then highly likely we would be disciplined.

In the case of a much more senior and high profile media figure the punishment should (and will) go beyond that. (lets face it, probably with a huge pay off)

This also applies if a woman does it to a man.

Yorkie · August 2023

Even if it appeared to be consensual, there's always huge potential for misunderstanding.
He says it was consensual. She says it wasn't.
Doesn't make it any less inappropriate.
This is a person in a position of power breaking a boundary, full stop.
It's also a turning point in their/our history. They can choose to move forwards or backwards. We'll see what happens.

Deadman · August 2023

Hmmm. Another sex pest in a position of authority who thinks he’s untouchable.

Deadman · August 2023

Hattigol said:

A few years back, I was in a bar on New Year's Eve. A girl came up to me, said Happy New Year and started kissing me. I hadn't consented and stopped her.

Was she a scumbag?

Was she also an FA president?

Offset · August 2023

Deadman said:

Hattigol said:

A few years back, I was in a bar on New Year's Eve. A girl came up to me, said Happy New Year and started kissing me. I hadn't consented and stopped her.

Was she a scumbag?

Was she also an FA president?

@Hattigol had consumed a few beers. It was Sepp Blatter in a syrup.

Hattigol · August 2023

I had no idea that whether it's a sexual assault depends on whether it's your employer, whether you enjoy it, whether it's on TV, whether it's an FA President or whether indeed it's the lovely Mr Blatter.

Thanks all for clarifying.

Forgive me but I'm off to try and find something guitar-related.

Devil#20 · August 2023

So summarising we should be more like Rajesh Koothrappali when around womenfolk.

Deadman · August 2023

Hattigol said:

I had no idea that whether it's a sexual assault depends on whether it's your employer, whether you enjoy it, whether it's on TV, whether it's an FA President or whether indeed it's the lovely Mr Blatter.

Thanks all for clarifying.

Forgive me but I'm off to try and find something guitar-related.

Try not to get kissed on the way.

Shrews · August 2023

Just looking at this footage from the Lionesses medal ceremony in 2022 there are hugs and, what looks like, kisses on the cheek from the women and men officials towards some of the girls.

I think in the Rubiales situation he has kissed her on the lips and that's a line that's been breached as to what is acceptable or not acceptable. Officials really should understand the boundaries here and so should the players.

What if the player grabs the official and kisses him ?

What if a male player grabs and kisses a female official in the same way?

Everyone just needs to be clear.

Here's that medal ceremony:

Hattigol · August 2023

Deadman said:

Hattigol said:

I had no idea that whether it's a sexual assault depends on whether it's your employer, whether you enjoy it, whether it's on TV, whether it's an FA President or whether indeed it's the lovely Mr Blatter.

Thanks all for clarifying.

Forgive me but I'm off to try and find something guitar-related.

Try not to get kissed on the way.

I'll be fine. I'll disguise myself as you

Timcito · August 2023

Emp_Fab said:
I can't speak on behalf of Spanish women, obviously, but my take is that they are not so much angry about the actual kiss itself, but the fact that it was the pinnacle of their achievements, their moment of glory for their country and the women of their country and here was a man, yet again, showing the world that he felt he could do anything he wanted to the women, because he is a man. If he'd not kissed Hermoso but patted the players on the head instead, there would have been the same uproar - and rightly so.

I agree. Can you imagine the outrage if some posh dignitary had cupped Bobby Moore's face and given him a kiss? "Sweet boy. How well you've done with your activities. Your mother will be so proud!"

Yorkie · August 2023

Hattigol said:

I had no idea that whether it's a sexual assault depends on whether it's your employer, whether you enjoy it, whether it's on TV, whether it's an FA President or whether indeed it's the lovely Mr Blatter.

A judge will decide whether this qualifies as sexual assault. At the very least it’s inappropriate behaviour and in the complete absence of a reasonable and full apology, he must be (has been?) disciplined.

I believe the player; the bloke’s behaviour both before and after the incident has only reinforced my conviction.

Tannin · August 2023

For those few who still don't get it and can't understand why all this fuss about a "harmless" kiss, the kiss has long since stopped being the key issue. The real bone of contention here is the arrogant and entitled way Rubiales handled things, in particular the self-serving lies he told. His seeming inability to grasp the nature of the problem only adds to this.

To give you an idea of how hopelessly in the wrong this man is, not only has the entire national team refused to serve under him - yes, every single player, and many others not in the team but eligible for selection (79 senior players all up) - but pretty much the entire coaching staff has resigned in disgust. The head coach has not resigned (yet) but has issued a strongly-worded statement showing his full support for his players and staff. Not only all that, but even FIFA - a very entitled and tone-deaf body not known for being able to read the room - has suspended the scumbag.

GoFish · August 2023

For those of us keen on analogising I will ask you what you'd think if the winning team were the under 16 boys or girls teams? Would that be any different? Why?

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Rubiales: "I'm not going to resign"

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