A dull argument about "feel"

monquixote · August 2023

EricTheWeary said:

monquixote said:

EricTheWeary said:

I had it on. Probably only two pedals that actually jumped out which were the Marshall and the Tone City but really only because they don't really work with everything at 12 o'clock.
Earlier I'd had a demo for the new Origin FX overdrive on and convinced myself it was the best thing since Velcro fastened shoes but y'know it's the player, the signal chain, the production...
I know I've told this before but I was heavily put off the Blues Driver because I knew someone who had one and it sounded utter arse. Few years later there was a dep guitarist in the band I was in and he had one and I thought uh oh and yet it sounded bloody marvelous. Player, signal chain,etc.

The Blues Driver would sell much more if the gain maxed out at 12 o'clock as it just starts to sound worse after that point.

It also can sound quite bad into solid state amps or things that can bring out it's natural harshness.

I think the name Blues Driver can give that Gary Moore in a small box type impression. And, therefore, disappointment when it doesn’t do that. Some solid state and budget digital amps just don’t take any pedal that boosts the signal significantly well at all.

Some of the comments query how useful going into an already overdriven amp was but it was expressly what they said they were going to do and is the traditional role for an overdrive pedal (if it’s your only source of distortion then it becomes a distortion pedal surely). I think it also shows that with a bit of knob twiddling that quite a wide range of pedals can do that basic role without massive difference between how they sound. I’d be unhappy about going down the £20 Behringer route for gigging because I’d have concerns (maybe wrongly) about reliability and some of these pedals had a lot more functionality than was demonstrated (the Thorpy Dane for example) so it all needs taking with a pinch of salt. But as a starting point for looking at overdrives or as a bit of low budget entertainment all good.

The BD-2 is a bit of an odd one out in that company because it's actually an amp in a box pedal.

It's basically a Fender preamp made with JFETs.

I absolutely wouldn't use a Behringer for gigging both because I don't like the brands ethics and because when I've had super budget pedals on a gig board they've let me down, but that's not about how they sound.

LastMantra · August 2023

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

"Unhelpfully literal"

So it's not something that is fully literal?

roberty

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

It feels different to produce those sounds, therefore the sound feels different. If your tactile and hearing senses are not highly connected while you play then I would suggest that you are in a small minority of players. This thread would seem to confirm that

What's that got to do with "feeling" an overdrive pedal?

"Therfore the sound feels different", honestly?

As far as I know I don't have any numbness in my extremities. Not sure how highly connected my tactile and hearing senses are "connected", maybe you could expand on that?

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha

fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

monquixote · August 2023

LastMantra said:

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

"Unhelpfully literal"

So it's not something that is fully literal?

roberty

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

It feels different to produce those sounds, therefore the sound feels different. If your tactile and hearing senses are not highly connected while you play then I would suggest that you are in a small minority of players. This thread would seem to confirm that

What's that got to do with "feeling" an overdrive pedal?

"Therfore the sound feels different", honestly?

As far as I know I don't have any numbness in my extremities. Not sure how highly connected my tactile and hearing senses are "connected", maybe you could expand on that?

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

I barely post on here any more because of this kind of crap.

Create your own thread and stop shitting on mine.

LastMantra · August 2023

monquixote said:

LastMantra said:

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:m8

"Unhelpfully literal"

So it's not something that is fully literal?

roberty

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

It feels different to produce those sounds, therefore the sound feels different. If your tactile and hearing senses are not highly connected while you play then I would suggest that you are in a small minority of players. This thread would seem to confirm that

What's that got to do with "feeling" an overdrive pedal?

"Therfore the sound feels different", honestly?

As far as I know I don't have any numbness in my extremities. Not sure how highly connected my tactile and hearing senses are "connected", maybe you could expand on that?

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

I barely post on here any more because of this kind of crap.

Create your own thread and stop shitting on mine.

No I certainly will not. If you don't like it you know what to do.

I'm asking a straight question and getting a whole load of bullshit from a small clique trying to feel superior by saying they have some kind of sixth sense that others don't possess.

It's that kind of crap that puts a whoooole lot of people posting here

Roland · August 2023

LastMantra said:

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

@LastMantra Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s bullshit. After decades of loud music I can’t hear frequencies up to 18kHz. It doesn’t mean that they no longer exist. It does make me, to use your words, “lacking in physical … senses”.

With all drive pedals there’s an EQ curve in what it outputs. Sometimes it’s quite complex. There’s also different amounts of distortion, and different types of wave form distortion, at different frequencies. Some pedals simply truncate the wave form by cutting off the peaks. They tend to give a harsh sound. Others will gradually reduce the peaks, or deform them asymmetrically.

Remember that when a guitar string vibrates it vibrates with several different harmonic frequencies at the same time. Depending on how you pick and fret a note you can produce different mixes of those frequencies. Picking hard, and/or near the bridge, produces more of the higher frequencies. Fretting with flesh creeping over the fret, rather than staying behind it, will reduce the higher frequencies. Left hand muting is an extreme example. You a correct that this is all playing technique, but what the player is doing is emphasising or de-emphasising what frequencies the pedal produces. That’s feeling the sound.

Ddigger · August 2023

TC Electronic Cinders for the win! A comparison video of various versions.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=blues+driver+cinders+blues+crab&qpvt=blues+driver+cinders+blues+crab&view=detail&mid=0E734A34FA45E2D737E10E734A34FA45E2D737E1&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dblues%2Bdriver%2Bcinders%2Bblues%2Bcrab%26qpvt%3Dblues%2Bdriver%2Bcinders%2Bblues%2Bcrab%26FORM%3DVDRE

monquixote · August 2023

LastMantra said:

monquixote said:

LastMantra said:

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:m8

"Unhelpfully literal"

So it's not something that is fully literal?

roberty

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

It feels different to produce those sounds, therefore the sound feels different. If your tactile and hearing senses are not highly connected while you play then I would suggest that you are in a small minority of players. This thread would seem to confirm that

What's that got to do with "feeling" an overdrive pedal?

"Therfore the sound feels different", honestly?

As far as I know I don't have any numbness in my extremities. Not sure how highly connected my tactile and hearing senses are "connected", maybe you could expand on that?

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

I barely post on here any more because of this kind of crap.

Create your own thread and stop shitting on mine.

No I certainly will not. If you don't like it you know what to do.

I'm asking a straight question and getting a whole load of bullshit from a small clique trying to feel superior by saying they have some kind of sixth sense that others don't possess.

It's that kind of crap that puts a whoooole lot of people posting here

Yeah I do

You win the internet.

I think I'm done with this site.

roberty · August 2023

Weird hill to die on @LastMantra. Next time you describe your experience of something I'll be sure to call you out on bullshit

LastMantra · August 2023

Roland said:

LastMantra said:

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

@LastMantra Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s bullshit. After decades of loud music I can’t hear frequencies up to 18kHz. It doesn’t mean that they no longer exist. It does make me, to use your words, “lacking in physical … senses”.

With all drive pedals there’s an EQ curve in what it outputs. Sometimes it’s quite complex. There’s also different amounts of distortion, and different types of wave form distortion, at different frequencies. Some pedals simply truncate the wave form by cutting off the peaks. They tend to give a harsh sound. Others will gradually reduce the peaks, or deform them asymmetrically.

Remember that when a guitar string vibrates it vibrates with several different harmonic frequencies at the same time. Depending on how you pick and fret a note you can produce different mixes of those frequencies. Picking hard, and/or near the bridge, produces more of the higher frequencies. Fretting with flesh creeping over the fret, rather than staying behind it, will reduce the higher frequencies. Left hand muting is an extreme example. You a correct that this is all playing technique, but what the player is doing is emphasising or de-emphasising what frequencies the pedal produces. That’s feeling the sound.

No that's all measurable known quantities that I'm aware of.
"feeling the sound" is a term that seems to only be used by a few people on this site, I can't find any mention of it elsewhere.
You don't actually FEEL anything therefore I said it's a bullshit term.
I really don't understand why this is causing so much fuss.

LastMantra · August 2023

roberty said:

Weird hill to die on @LastMantra. Next time you describe your experience of something I'll be sure to call you out on bullshit

Thanks.

Not dying yet though.

UnclePsychosis · August 2023

LastMantra said:

Roland said:

LastMantra said:

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

@LastMantra Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s bullshit. After decades of loud music I can’t hear frequencies up to 18kHz. It doesn’t mean that they no longer exist. It does make me, to use your words, “lacking in physical … senses”.

With all drive pedals there’s an EQ curve in what it outputs. Sometimes it’s quite complex. There’s also different amounts of distortion, and different types of wave form distortion, at different frequencies. Some pedals simply truncate the wave form by cutting off the peaks. They tend to give a harsh sound. Others will gradually reduce the peaks, or deform them asymmetrically.

Remember that when a guitar string vibrates it vibrates with several different harmonic frequencies at the same time. Depending on how you pick and fret a note you can produce different mixes of those frequencies. Picking hard, and/or near the bridge, produces more of the higher frequencies. Fretting with flesh creeping over the fret, rather than staying behind it, will reduce the higher frequencies. Left hand muting is an extreme example. You a correct that this is all playing technique, but what the player is doing is emphasising or de-emphasising what frequencies the pedal produces. That’s feeling the sound.

No that's all measurable known quantities that I'm aware of.
"feeling the sound" is a term that seems to only be used by a few people on this site, I can't find any mention of it elsewhere.
You don't actually FEEL anything therefore I said it's a bullshit term.
I really don't understand why this is causing so much fuss.

Literally nobody has said they feel sound. What everybody has said is that depending on what gear you have, you have to touch (feel) your guitar differently to manipulate the sound.

I refuse to believe you don't understand this.

LastMantra · August 2023

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

Roland said:

LastMantra said:

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Haha fuck off!

Until someone can actually explain this properly I'll just assume you're full of shit.

Feel the sound indeed

@LastMantra Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s bullshit. After decades of loud music I can’t hear frequencies up to 18kHz. It doesn’t mean that they no longer exist. It does make me, to use your words, “lacking in physical … senses”.

With all drive pedals there’s an EQ curve in what it outputs. Sometimes it’s quite complex. There’s also different amounts of distortion, and different types of wave form distortion, at different frequencies. Some pedals simply truncate the wave form by cutting off the peaks. They tend to give a harsh sound. Others will gradually reduce the peaks, or deform them asymmetrically.

Remember that when a guitar string vibrates it vibrates with several different harmonic frequencies at the same time. Depending on how you pick and fret a note you can produce different mixes of those frequencies. Picking hard, and/or near the bridge, produces more of the higher frequencies. Fretting with flesh creeping over the fret, rather than staying behind it, will reduce the higher frequencies. Left hand muting is an extreme example. You a correct that this is all playing technique, but what the player is doing is emphasising or de-emphasising what frequencies the pedal produces. That’s feeling the sound.

No that's all measurable known quantities that I'm aware of.
"feeling the sound" is a term that seems to only be used by a few people on this site, I can't find any mention of it elsewhere.
You don't actually FEEL anything therefore I said it's a bullshit term.
I really don't understand why this is causing so much fuss.

Literally nobody has said they feel sound. What everybody has said is that depending on what gear you have, you have to touch (feel) your guitar differently to manipulate the sound.

I refuse to believe you don't understand this.

Are you joking!

Do I really have to back and quote all the times I've been told "just because you can't feel it doesn't mean it doesn’t exist", "it's not just what you hear but what you feel", "it feels more squashy"?

LastMantra · August 2023

Which is basically my point if people can't agree on what it actually is why say it?

It's confusing and and makes out there's some sort of unobtainable knowledge involved.

roberty · August 2023

LastMantra said:

roberty said:

Weird hill to die on @LastMantra. Next time you describe your experience of something I'll be sure to call you out on bullshit

Thanks.

Not dying yet though.

LastMantra · August 2023

Did you think of that all by yourself?

Well done buddy! Gold star!

<thumbs up>

Emp_Fab · August 2023

Would you take this out to the car park gents, or exchange email addresses?

GoFish · August 2023

LastMantra said:

No I certainly will not. If you don't like it you know what to do.

I'm asking a straight question and getting a whole load of bullshit from a small clique trying to feel superior by saying they have some kind of sixth sense that others don't possess.

It's that kind of crap that puts a whoooole lot of people posting here

You really believe that there are only five senses?

Shaka, when the walls fell!

Do you think that different pianos or acoustic guitars feels different from each other. It's all wood and wires, after all.

LastMantra · August 2023

GoFish said:

LastMantra said:

No I certainly will not. If you don't like it you know what to do.

I'm asking a straight question and getting a whole load of bullshit from a small clique trying to feel superior by saying they have some kind of sixth sense that others don't possess.

It's that kind of crap that puts a whoooole lot of people posting here

Do you think that different pianos or acoustic guitars feels different from each other. It's all wood and wires, after all.

Different things do feels different?

What's your point?

darthed1981 · August 2023

Emp_Fab said:

Would you take this out to the car park gents, or exchange email addresses?

Or just kiss and get it on, like we know this is building up to...

roberty · August 2023

Lmao @monquixote good one

GoFish · August 2023

LastMantra said:

GoFish said:

LastMantra said:

No I certainly will not. If you don't like it you know what to do.

I'm asking a straight question and getting a whole load of bullshit from a small clique trying to feel superior by saying they have some kind of sixth sense that others don't possess.

It's that kind of crap that puts a whoooole lot of people posting here

Do you think that different pianos or acoustic guitars feels different from each other. It's all wood and wires, after all.

Different things do feels different?

What's your point?

Let me explain for those at the back or anyone that seems to be having a stroke

You think that ye olde greek medical classsification of there being 5 senses is correct and that no updates have been made since that time? Care to provide any papers that show this?

You are aware of the concept of metaphor and the role this plays in human communication?

That's two points. I have others but this seems like a good enough place to stop.

Given the ill-defined concept of "senses" in this thread and the (hopefully) well understood role of metaphor in describing events, what part of the "feel" in a musical instrument, as distinct from sound or broad tactile sensation, do you think is being misrepresented here?

Which part are you having difficulty with?

LastMantra · August 2023

GoFish said:

LastMantra said:

GoFish said:

LastMantra said:

No I certainly will not. If you don't like it you know what to do.

I'm asking a straight question and getting a whole load of bullshit from a small clique trying to feel superior by saying they have some kind of sixth sense that others don't possess.

It's that kind of crap that puts a whoooole lot of people posting here

Do you think that different pianos or acoustic guitars feels different from each other. It's all wood and wires, after all.

Different things do feels different?

What's your point?

Let me explain for those at the back or anyone that seems to be having a stroke

You think that ye olde greek medical classsification of there being 5 senses is correct and that no updates have been made since that time? Care to provide any papers that show this?

You are aware of the concept of metaphor and the role this plays in human communication?

That's two points. I have others but this seems like a good enough place to stop.

Given the ill-defined concept of "senses" in this thread and the (hopefully) well understood role of metaphor in describing events, what part of the "feel" in a musical instrument, as distinct from sound or broad tactile sensation, do you think is being misrepresented here?

Which part are you having difficulty with?

It might be better for everyone if you just read my previous comments, rather than trying to start another argument?

The goal posts seem to have been removed entirely now.

GoFish · August 2023

There are goal posts? In a conversation? But there's no ball, or scoring system, so how can that be?

I'm sorry if I pissed you off by just diving in and taking issue with a small part of what you wrote, derailing your conversation. I hope no-one does that to me.

From what I have read, You seem to be advocating skepticism - is that correct?

Being skeptical and critical is good thing, mostly. So where did this take a left turn into a shit-pit of a thread?

Musicman20 · August 2023

Oh heck.

Always knew the BD-2 was a great pedal. To my ears it sounded the best throughout the whole video.

The only thing I’d say is every pedal I’ve tried that’s drive/fuzz/distortion changes character with less volume into them.

darthed1981 · August 2023

I think what we are missing is that you could quite easily watch that video and come away with these two conclusions...

"All those over-drive pedals from £20 to £250 sound remarkably similar, so any one, including the cheap one, will do the job".

or

"There are subtle differences between those pedals that will be very important to some people, and will influence their buying decision, which given its an Andertons video, is the point"

Both are totally correct and neither implies ignorance/can't play/delusions etc...

So everyone kiss and make up

GoFish · August 2023

Having ploughed through the entire thread again, I feel I may have come on too strong in responding to @LastMantra's posts. He wasn't belligerent to start off with, though imo it did get that way as the thread progressed. If we were talking about ghosts or whatnot I'd probably react similarly.

The BD2 is a pretty fine pedal when used to its strengths. which I'd guess the video did. It can be confusing as on the one hand, most overdrives do sound similar enough, especially into a hot amp. On the other hand, tiny changes in the guitar's volume of the amp's headroom can have a huge effect. I do wonder what the point is of an extensive demo just to settle on a 30+ year old pedal.

darthed1981 · August 2023

GoFish said:

I do wonder what the point is of an extensive demo just to settle on a 30+ year old pedal.

Well it is the newer "Waza Craft" version - pricier and with extra features...

It's interesting that a decade ago you would have perceived Rabea as a shreddy metal player and now he almost seems happier with a little bit of drive and a strat!

GoFish · August 2023

darthed1981 said:

I think what we are missing is that you could quite easily watch that video and come away with these two conclusions...

"All those over-drive pedals from £20 to £250 sound remarkably similar, so any one, including the cheap one, will do the job".

or

"There are subtle differences between those pedals that will be very important to some people, and will influence their buying decision, which given its an Andertons video, is the point"

Both are totally correct and neither implies ignorance/can't play/delusions etc...

So everyone kiss and make up

My lips are puckered and I'm ready for my kiss

Seziertisch · August 2023

My experience of “feel” when it comes to amps and pedals is that it relates to dynamic range, headroom and compression characteristics. These are things aren’t necessarily sonically obvious to the listener but are very noticeable as a player.

I have a KOT clone from Fuzzdog which has a built-in switchable charge pump, the “feel” is very different between 9v and 18v. Similarly, I have a Pettyjohn Predrive which can takes anything from 18v to 32v, the “feel” changes as the voltage goes up and down, it will even work with less than 18v but the dynamic range is significantly reduced and it farts out when pushed harder.

That’s not to say the higher headroom is always desirable. I have a Rat clone that can take up to 18v, though at higher voltages it is nearly a different thing from what you might look for from a Rat.

Similarly, I find that as a player I enjoy unpotted pickups much more than potted as they feel more “alive”, though I have listened to some before and after potting comparisons and the sonic differences are fairly minimal.

prlgmnr · August 2023

LastMantra if you're actually genuinely interested in this and not just being a knob for jollies, head over to the Mesa Boogie website, have a look at the manual for the Mark V and look at how many references there are to different settings directly affecting the feel of the strings, and then maybe ponder why an amp manufacturer would put that in their manual if it was just made up bullshit on a forum.

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A dull argument about "feel"

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