A dull argument about "feel"

Lebarque · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Completely agree. It's a combination of sound AND feel for me. I might like the sound of a dirt pedal, but if it doesn't feel right, it's a no. It goes back to the notion of what gives you a buzz and what inspires you to play.

These days, I play into a clean amp and find most of the traditional OD pedals (as per the video) a bit sterile, hard and metallic sounding/feeling for my taste. I prefer fuzz/OD hybrids or something tweedy, which provides warmth and an elastic feel, for want of a better word. That's what gives me, personally, a bone.

Agree with the other posters that the video was a little pointless into a gainy amp, as they all sounded very similar. I can see why the comparison is a popular format though. 'What's best?' is compelling, even when you don't really care.

What a player Rabea is. If only the irritating 'Captain' would do one. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I don't enjoy watching him.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

LastMantra said:

Yup, it's this mysterious "feel thing".

It’s not mysterious - lots of us agree it exists.

It’s about how the sound is affected depending on how you manipulate the strings with your picking hand. That is a combination of your ears and your hands and definitely something that is felt as well as heard.

If you can’t feel it that’s fine but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

Lebarque · August 2023

guyinlyon said:

Bless his little fuzzy head but I don't understand why anyone would care what Rabea's favorite overdrive is. He's decent guitarist that has found a niche in paid product demonstration, but his favorite overdrive? Way too much "influencer" nonsense going on here.

My translation: I've failed to acknowledge that Andertons YouTube channel is (successful) advertising, so I've resorted to mocking a great guitarist and good bloke's hair. Oh dear.

LastMantra · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

Yup, it's this mysterious "feel thing".

It’s not mysterious - lots of us agree it exists.

It’s about how the sound is affected depending on how you manipulate the strings with your picking hand. That is a combination of your ears and your hands and definitely something that is felt as well as heard.

If you can’t feel it that’s fine but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

To me that just sounds like playing guitar and hearing the sound it makes.

What does it actually feel like?

Any links to a proper definition?

roberty · August 2023

LastMantra said:

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?
What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

Feel comes mostly down to how the saturation shapes your transients imo. Obviously you get tactile feedback and aural feedback when you play and there is a relationship between the two. Anything that alters that relationship will change the way the guitar feels.

OK

No, transients, saturation, it's all describing the sound being produced.

Guess it's just me though.

Obviously a guitar through a cranked mesa feels different to play than the same guitar through a spanky clean fender twin. Because there is a relationship between what you feel with your hands and what you hear coming out of the speaker. There is a gulf between those two extremes

They'd certainly sound different.

So is it an emotional feeling rather than "of the sense of touch?"

I just think it would probably make things simpler if we used actual definable logical terms.

There is a relationship between what you hear with your ears and what you feel with your hands. Those two senses are connected when you play. It is one thing. Maybe you can't feel compression when you play but I would say you are in a minority

roberty · August 2023

With compression literally you hit harder and the attack squashes. It feels more squashy

LastMantra · August 2023

roberty said:

With compression literally you hit harder and the attack squashes. It feels more squashy

It SOUNDS more squashy

LastMantra · August 2023

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?
What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

Feel comes mostly down to how the saturation shapes your transients imo. Obviously you get tactile feedback and aural feedback when you play and there is a relationship between the two. Anything that alters that relationship will change the way the guitar feels.

OK

No, transients, saturation, it's all describing the sound being produced.

Guess it's just me though.

Obviously a guitar through a cranked mesa feels different to play than the same guitar through a spanky clean fender twin. Because there is a relationship between what you feel with your hands and what you hear coming out of the speaker. There is a gulf between those two extremes

They'd certainly sound different.

So is it an emotional feeling rather than "of the sense of touch?"

I just think it would probably make things simpler if we used actual definable logical terms.

There is a relationship between what you hear with your ears and what you feel with your hands. Those two senses are connected when you play. It is one thing. Maybe you can't feel compression when you play but I would say you are in a minority

In an emotional sense?

How can you feel it? It's literally impossible. It's nonsense!

LastMantra · August 2023

What are you guys smoking tonight?!

pluckbuddy · August 2023

Lebarque said:

guyinlyon said:

Bless his little fuzzy head but I don't understand why anyone would care what Rabea's favorite overdrive is. He's decent guitarist that has found a niche in paid product demonstration, but his favorite overdrive? Way too much "influencer" nonsense going on here.

My translation: I've failed to acknowledge that Andertons YouTube channel is (successful) advertising, so I've resorted to mocking a great guitarist and good bloke's hair. Oh dear.

Yeah can't say I'm dropping everything to find out what his favourite pedal is but speaking in demeaning terms about the man's hair is crass and unnecessary.

It is basically light hearted and free media content created fairly transparently to generate interest in products. No one is being forced to watch.

John_P · August 2023

roberty said:

With compression literally you hit harder and the attack squashes. It feels more squashy

Definitely. I've had plenty of amps and pedals that I loved the sound, but didn't like the feel. It's about the attack and compression affecting how the sound changes when you play differently.

LastMantra · August 2023

This is some sort of group madness!

UnclePsychosis · August 2023

LastMantra said:

This is some sort of group madness!

You're either being obtuse or you're unhelpfully literal.

As an electric guitarist, there's a relationship between "what your hands are doing" and the tone of the sound you produce. Playing harder or softer changes the timbre, for instance. Different amps, or pedals, or guitars, feel different - by which it is commonly understood that the relationship between what your hands do and the sound that you get differs from what you were doing before.

As an obvious example, if you use a compressor set to give a moderate amount of compression, then the amount you have to vary your playing to change the output volume is different to how much you'd have to do it (in order to get the same output) with no compressor.

I hate audiophile pedal bullshit as much as the next man but I refuse to believe that anyone sufficiently invested in guitar as to join a forum doesn't understand what feel is.

Wazmeister · August 2023

LastMantra said:

Still doesn't really make any sense though ^.

What's being described are differences in the sound.

Nope. Not at all.

Feel. How it affects your playing. Not sound, the emotion of playing, the influence.

The difference between a cooking valve amp and a digital one. Feel.

LastMantra · August 2023

My god!

LastMantra · August 2023

Wazmeister said:

The difference between a cooking valve amp and a digital one. Feel.

Ok

LastMantra · August 2023

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

This is some sort of group madness!

You're either being obtuse or you're unhelpfully literal.

As an electric guitarist, there's a relationship between "what your hands are doing" and the tone of the sound you produce. Playing harder or softer changes the timbre, for instance. Different amps, or pedals, or guitars, feel different - by which it is commonly understood that the relationship between what your hands do and the sound that you get differs from what you were doing before.

As an obvious example, if you use a compressor set to give a moderate amount of compression, then the amount you have to vary your playing to change the output volume is different to how much you'd have to do it (in order to get the same output) with no compressor.

I hate audiophile pedal bullshit as much as the next man but I refuse to believe that anyone sufficiently invested in guitar as to join a forum doesn't understand what feel is.

I've been googling all night and can't find one paper on this phenomenon.
There are several different definitions in this thread though.

Unhelpfully literal?

Just because something gets repeated often doesn't mean it makes any sense or is helpful.

LastMantra · August 2023

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

John_P · August 2023

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

LastMantra · August 2023

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

If something is more compressed why not just say that?

Why say it's not how it sounds, it's how it feels?

John_P · August 2023

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

LastMantra · August 2023

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

sweepy · August 2023

The interaction between your ears and fingers varies massively depending on the sound as some pedals respond to digging in and legato in very different ways. If you can’t feel the difference between different responsiveness with an amp/guitar/ pedal setup then I recommend golf

roberty · August 2023

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

It feels different to produce those sounds, therefore the sound feels different. If your tactile and hearing senses are not highly connected while you play then I would suggest that you are in a small minority of players. This thread would seem to confirm that

Wazmeister · August 2023

UnclePsychosis said:

LastMantra said:

This is some sort of group madness!

You're either being obtuse or you're unhelpfully literal.

As an electric guitarist, there's a relationship between "what your hands are doing" and the tone of the sound you produce. Playing harder or softer changes the timbre, for instance. Different amps, or pedals, or guitars, feel different - by which it is commonly understood that the relationship between what your hands do and the sound that you get differs from what you were doing before.

As an obvious example, if you use a compressor set to give a moderate amount of compression, then the amount you have to vary your playing to change the output volume is different to how much you'd have to do it (in order to get the same output) with no compressor.

I hate audiophile pedal bullshit as much as the next man but I refuse to believe that anyone sufficiently invested in guitar as to join a forum doesn't understand what feel is.

Brilliant post and bang on

monquixote · August 2023

NickB said:

I have pretty much gone through every overdrive known and come to the conclusion that it’s all a load of overblown horseplop….the Behringer £20 pedal proves my point…..

says the man that was mightily impressed by the Waza BD2.

To be clear the non Waza BD-2 sounds pretty much identical and I could gig with any of them.

AntonHunter · August 2023

LastMantra said:

They'd certainly sound different.

So is it an emotional feeling rather than "of the sense of touch?"

I just think it would probably make things simpler if we used actual definable logical terms.

That's the problem with music, not enough logic! Excuse me while I go and practice my tremolo arm technique through this Fender vibrato channel. Feels pretty chewy, if anyone's interested.

LastMantra · August 2023

"Unhelpfully literal"

So it's not something that is fully literal?

roberty

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

It feels different to produce those sounds, therefore the sound feels different. If your tactile and hearing senses are not highly connected while you play then I would suggest that you are in a small minority of players. This thread would seem to confirm that

What's that got to do with "feeling" an overdrive pedal?

"Therfore the sound feels different", honestly?

As far as I know I don't have any numbness in my extremities. Not sure how highly connected my tactile and hearing senses are "connected", maybe you could expand on that?

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

EricTheWeary · August 2023

monquixote said:

EricTheWeary said:

I had it on. Probably only two pedals that actually jumped out which were the Marshall and the Tone City but really only because they don't really work with everything at 12 o'clock.
Earlier I'd had a demo for the new Origin FX overdrive on and convinced myself it was the best thing since Velcro fastened shoes but y'know it's the player, the signal chain, the production...
I know I've told this before but I was heavily put off the Blues Driver because I knew someone who had one and it sounded utter arse. Few years later there was a dep guitarist in the band I was in and he had one and I thought uh oh and yet it sounded bloody marvelous. Player, signal chain,etc.

The Blues Driver would sell much more if the gain maxed out at 12 o'clock as it just starts to sound worse after that point.

It also can sound quite bad into solid state amps or things that can bring out it's natural harshness.

I think the name Blues Driver can give that Gary Moore in a small box type impression. And, therefore, disappointment when it doesn’t do that. Some solid state and budget digital amps just don’t take any pedal that boosts the signal significantly well at all.

Some of the comments query how useful going into an already overdriven amp was but it was expressly what they said they were going to do and is the traditional role for an overdrive pedal (if it’s your only source of distortion then it becomes a distortion pedal surely). I think it also shows that with a bit of knob twiddling that quite a wide range of pedals can do that basic role without massive difference between how they sound. I’d be unhappy about going down the £20 Behringer route for gigging because I’d have concerns (maybe wrongly) about reliability and some of these pedals had a lot more functionality than was demonstrated (the Thorpy Dane for example) so it all needs taking with a pinch of salt. But as a starting point for looking at overdrives or as a bit of low budget entertainment all good.

UnclePsychosis · August 2023

LastMantra said:

"Unhelpfully literal"

So it's not something that is fully literal?

roberty

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

John_P said:

LastMantra said:

I know what playing with feel means.

Have never felt any difference in dirt pedals.

You must have experienced how the sound changes when to play harder or softer?

And if you try the same changes in playing technique with different amps and pedals you will notice that isn't consistent.

In my experience every amp and pedal responds differently to changes in technique.

Yeah, sure, but that's differences in sound surely?

Sort of, but the link between how you hit the string and the changes in sound can only be experienced by the player. e.g. it might take more force to get the same change in sound if the pedal has less compression.

I'd call that technique?

That's more about "playing with feel"rather than " the feel of a overdrive pedal."
You don't feel an overdrive pedal the change in your playing, and fx you use, results in a different sound. SOUND.

It feels different to produce those sounds, therefore the sound feels different. If your tactile and hearing senses are not highly connected while you play then I would suggest that you are in a small minority of players. This thread would seem to confirm that

What's that got to do with "feeling" an overdrive pedal?

"Therfore the sound feels different", honestly?

As far as I know I don't have any numbness in my extremities. Not sure how highly connected my tactile and hearing senses are "connected", maybe you could expand on that?

Sounds like a bullshit statement that a bunch of people on here have picked up. Doesn't make me in the wrong, or lacking in physical, or emotional, senses.

Deliberately obtuse it is, then.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

A dull argument about "feel"

Comments