A dull argument about "feel"

monquixote · August 2023

I watched this last night as background while I was doing something else.
I haven't watched a guitar video or bought a pedal in years, but I like Rabea's playing so I thought it might be worth a look.

One thing of note is that SPOILER The Boss BD-2W comes out on top despite being old, non boutique and not especially pricey and that Danish Pete did a similar video a while back and I believe also picked the BD-2W

I have a BD-2W and it's a great pedal that beaten lots of much more expensive pedals to get onto my board.

That wasn't the main take away which was (as said by Lee and Rabea during the video) that basically all of the pedals from £20 to £400 sounded great, and not especially different from each other and that what made them sound awesome was the fact that they were being played by Rabea even though the guitar was fairly mid priced.

I remember doing so many pointless shootouts between pedals to eke out the last 0.01% of tone which would have been much better spent practicing, or writing songs.

I now have an SD-1, BD-2 and DS-2 on my board and have never been happier not because Boss are better than other pedals, but because I just enjoy playing and don't waste my time on things that don't really matter.

CraigGT · August 2023

Yes I watched that too, surely they all sounded pretty much the same because all they're doing is boosting the signal and causing the amp to overdrive. It's the sound of the amp that changes and the pedals just throw a bit of eq into the equation.

TTony · August 2023

monquixote said:

I remember doing so many pointless shootouts between pedals to eke out the last 0.01% of tone which would have been much better spent practicing, or writing songs.

As Rabea commented at the beginning "what mood am I in today".

It's just preference (there is no best) and your preference or assessment of that 0.01% could change day to day depending on lots of things - including your mood.

But at least you kept a small bit of the pedal market ticking over whilst you were looking for it!

english_bob · August 2023

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

EricTheWeary · August 2023

I had it on. Probably only two pedals that actually jumped out which were the Marshall and the Tone City but really only because they don't really work with everything at 12 o'clock.
Earlier I'd had a demo for the new Origin FX overdrive on and convinced myself it was the best thing since Velcro fastened shoes but y'know it's the player, the signal chain, the production...
I know I've told this before but I was heavily put off the Blues Driver because I knew someone who had one and it sounded utter arse. Few years later there was a dep guitarist in the band I was in and he had one and I thought uh oh and yet it sounded bloody marvelous. Player, signal chain,etc.

monquixote · August 2023

EricTheWeary said:

I had it on. Probably only two pedals that actually jumped out which were the Marshall and the Tone City but really only because they don't really work with everything at 12 o'clock.
Earlier I'd had a demo for the new Origin FX overdrive on and convinced myself it was the best thing since Velcro fastened shoes but y'know it's the player, the signal chain, the production...
I know I've told this before but I was heavily put off the Blues Driver because I knew someone who had one and it sounded utter arse. Few years later there was a dep guitarist in the band I was in and he had one and I thought uh oh and yet it sounded bloody marvelous. Player, signal chain,etc.

The Blues Driver would sell much more if the gain maxed out at 12 o'clock as it just starts to sound worse after that point.

It also can sound quite bad into solid state amps or things that can bring out it's natural harshness.

LastMantra · August 2023

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Kebabkid · August 2023

With the few pedals that Andy Timmons has on his board, it was always a surprise to see the modest Boss Blues Driver amongst his signature pedals and more expensive uits (he used it for low gain). However, it must've impressed him so much because Keeley modified it more to his needs and now have it in their range as the Keeley Super AT Mod.

Boss are solid pedals. There's a video of Dann Huff in the studio with racks of gear but he mentions that his small board of Boss pedals are what he uses on a lot of sessions or part of his layering of parts

monquixote · August 2023

Kebabkid said:

With the few pedals that Andy Timmons has on his board, it was always a surprise to see the modest Boss Blues Driver amongst his signature pedals and more expensive uits (he used it for low gain). However, it must've impressed him so much because Keeley modified it more to his needs and now have it in their range as the Keeley Super AT Mod.

Boss are solid pedals. There's a video of Dann Huff in the studio with racks of gear but he mentions that his small board of Boss pedals are what he uses on a lot of sessions or part of his layering of parts

The Andy Timmons Blues Driver thing is interesting. He runs it with medium gain and then backs right off the volume on the guitar to use it as his clean sound. (Interestingly Khrungbin do the same with a DS-1)

I've never really got it to sound anything like he does, but I wonder if that's because he also uses quite a lot of compression. I remember getting one of my all time favorite sounds with a compressor into an OD-3 which is quite a similar circuit.

LastMantra · August 2023

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?

What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

Wazmeister · August 2023

I agree it’s a feel thing with amps, and pedals…

By ‘feel’, I would be describing how a pedal makes my playing change, evolve, sound etc.

I enjoyed watching the video, but you could see Rabea uncertainty…. As he was just working on one type of sound.

But in this situation, as lot of pedals did ‘sound’ similar, but wouldn’t ‘feel’ similar, imho.

LastMantra · August 2023

Still doesn't really make any sense though ^.

What's being described are differences in the sound.

benmurray85 · August 2023

I think they’d had felt/heard more of a difference into a cleaner amp.

No criticism at all though, I love Bea and his playing but I don’t think the gained amp as a starting point was a good test bed.

monquixote · August 2023

benmurray85 said:

I think they’d had felt/heard more of a difference into a cleaner amp.

No criticism at all though, I love Bea and his playing but I don’t think the gained amp as a starting point was a good test bed.

For things like an SD-1 you need a breaking up amp as it's about what the pedal does to the amp. If it had been into a Fender Twin things like the SD-1 would have sounded like a bee in a tin and things like the Nobels ODR which are a bit more like an "Amp in a box" would have sounded better.

The other thing to note is that with a band a lot of the honkier pedals like Klones and TS pedals would have but through rather than sounding weedy.

roberty · August 2023

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?

What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

Feel comes mostly down to how the saturation shapes your transients imo. Obviously you get tactile feedback and aural feedback when you play and there is a relationship between the two. Anything that alters that relationship will change the way the guitar feels

hotpickups · August 2023

I’ve soooo given up on this overdrive quest. Maybe I’m just happy with my amp and not wanting to change anything now. I’m better off in the pocket since tbh lol

LastMantra · August 2023

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?
What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

Feel comes mostly down to how the saturation shapes your transients imo. Obviously you get tactile feedback and aural feedback when you play and there is a relationship between the two. Anything that alters that relationship will change the way the guitar feels.

OK

No, transients, saturation, it's all describing the sound being produced.

Guess it's just me though.

english_bob · August 2023

LastMantra said:

Still doesn't really make any sense though ^.

What's being described are differences in the sound.

That's certainly not explicitly stated in the original video. I don't think it's been said in any of the comments either. It's all about what's "best", which can mean just about anything you like, and certainly doesn't exclude the feel thing you don't understand.

benmurray85 · August 2023

monquixote said:

benmurray85 said:

I think they’d had felt/heard more of a difference into a cleaner amp.

No criticism at all though, I love Bea and his playing but I don’t think the gained amp as a starting point was a good test bed.

For things like an SD-1 you need a breaking up amp as it's about what the pedal does to the amp. If it had been into a Fender Twin things like the SD-1 would have sounded like a bee in a tin and things like the Nobels ODR which are a bit more like an "Amp in a box" would have sounded better.

The other thing to note is that with a band a lot of the honkier pedals like Klones and TS pedals would have but through rather than sounding weedy.

Respectfully disagree on the subject of an SD-1 into a clean amp. I actually bloody love that sound, each to their own though.

Regardless of taste, I still think the differences would have been most noticeable into a cleaner amp.

LastMantra · August 2023

Yup, it's this mysterious "feel thing".

monquixote · August 2023

LastMantra said:

Yup, it's this mysterious "feel thing".

I think what gets described as "feel" might be something else that doesn't come across to the listener.

There is a bit in that video where Rabea says "I don't like how this sounds on the neck pickup" and plays a succession of similar sounding notes.

I've been in that position with this sort of thing and when something doesn't respond how you expect to pick dynamics you can be saying "You hear that?" and the listener is like "what, no?"

Whereas you know you just played a note really gently and really popped another and it didn't come across they have no idea what your hand was doing.

roberty · August 2023

LastMantra said:

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?
What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

Feel comes mostly down to how the saturation shapes your transients imo. Obviously you get tactile feedback and aural feedback when you play and there is a relationship between the two. Anything that alters that relationship will change the way the guitar feels.

OK

No, transients, saturation, it's all describing the sound being produced.

Guess it's just me though.

Obviously a guitar through a cranked mesa feels different to play than the same guitar through a spanky clean fender twin. Because there is a relationship between what you feel with your hands and what you hear coming out of the speaker. There is a gulf between those two extremes

GoldenEraGuitars · August 2023

This is why I can’t be assed with pedals.

theatreanchor · August 2023

I skipped thru it. Does no one else find these shootouts a bit redundant? I certainly wouldn’t use them to make a decision on what overdrive to buy from Anderton’s (or anywhere else) next.

LastMantra · August 2023

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

roberty said:

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?
What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

Feel comes mostly down to how the saturation shapes your transients imo. Obviously you get tactile feedback and aural feedback when you play and there is a relationship between the two. Anything that alters that relationship will change the way the guitar feels.

OK

No, transients, saturation, it's all describing the sound being produced.

Guess it's just me though.

Obviously a guitar through a cranked mesa feels different to play than the same guitar through a spanky clean fender twin. Because there is a relationship between what you feel with your hands and what you hear coming out of the speaker. There is a gulf between those two extremes

They'd certainly sound different.

So is it an emotional feeling rather than "of the sense of touch?"

I just think it would probably make things simpler if we used actual definable logical terms.

TimmyO · August 2023

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?

What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

I suspect your question is disingenuous but I'll answer anyway : the 'feel' thing is the common (and pretty widely understood) way to express the way different things create different attack and volume responses, rather than tonal responses.

So yes these are things that are heard, not felt in a tactile way, obviously. I suspect you knew this, and knew that the OP knew it too.

It gets referred to as 'feel' because for most of us, our brain seems to attribute it in part to what we are doing with our hands and that cognitive dissonance attaches the word 'feel' because our brain is sometimes crap at expressing sensation in language.

Nobody here thinks that the soundwaves are caressing their skin differently and making it 'felt' like that. But you knew that, right.

NickB · August 2023

I have pretty much gone through every overdrive known and come to the conclusion that it’s all a load of overblown horseplop….the Behringer £20 pedal proves my point…..

says the man that was mightily impressed by the Waza BD2.

LastMantra · August 2023

TimmyO said:

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

LastMantra said:

english_bob said:

The other thing a pedal can change is how it feels to play something. It might sound exactly the same as half a dozen other pedals, but the particular compression and sag and whatnot from a particular pedal (or lack of those things) can make it feel like your guitar rig is working with you or against you- either like it's on your side or like it's fighting you. You'll never get that from a YouTube video.

Is "compression and sag and whatnot" not part of the sound?

Never really got this "feel" thing when it comes to these things.

Not really. It's a feel thing - how a pedal responds to your pick attack often isn't something you can hear in a mix, or in a youtube, or even in the room sitting next to the guy playing the guitar.

But you can definitely feel it when you're playing yourself, assuming you're used to playing with different pedals. It can also change with time, in terms of what you're trying to achieve, and as your own ears and playing style develop.

Hmmm, not sure that makes sense. When I'm playing all I feel is the guitar. Only time I feel the pedal is if I bend down to adjust the settings or when I stomp on it. Everything else I hear.

Compression, in this sense, is a tool for manipulating sound. No?

What exactly is it you are feeling? Sound waves?

I suspect your question is disingenuous but I'll answer anyway : the 'feel' thing is the common (and pretty widely understood) way to express the way different things create different attack and volume responses, rather than tonal responses.

So yes these are things that are heard, not felt in a tactile way, obviously. I suspect you knew this, and knew that the OP knew it too.

It gets referred to as 'feel' because for most of us, our brain seems to attribute it in part to what we are doing with our hands and that cognitive dissonance attaches the word 'feel' because our brain is sometimes crap at expressing sensation in language.

Nobody here thinks that the soundwaves are caressing their skin differently and making it 'felt' like that. But you knew that, right.

Fair play.

All I'm saying is if you're talking about "transients" it would probably make things a lot clearer to learners etc. to just use the word transients.

guyinlyon · August 2023

Bless his little fuzzy head but I don't understand why anyone would care what Rabea's favorite overdrive is. He's decent guitarist that has found a niche in paid product demonstration, but his favorite overdrive? Way too much "influencer" nonsense going on here.

guyinlyon · August 2023

theatreanchor said:

I skipped thru it. Does no one else find these shootouts a bit redundant? I certainly wouldn’t use them to make a decision on what overdrive to buy from Anderton’s (or anywhere else) next.

If it had resulted in Rabea choosing, as his favorite overdrive pedal, one that was NOT sold by Anderton's, then I'd pay more attention.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

A dull argument about "feel"

Comments