The Football Thread.

victorludorum · April 2023

TTony said:

guitars4you said:

Is the delay as the owners don't know what they want - Or do the potential managers not fancy either clubs for one reason or another

Really don't understand the delay at Spurs.

Conte going was hardly a surprise. Given how often we change managers, I'd have hoped that there was a well proven internal process that always has shortlist of potential candidates - kept updated as their situation changes - in the expectation that we'll need to appoint one of them, probably sooner rather than later.

We'll now spend the next few months watching all the possible candidates signing up for one or other of the other teams, and find ourselves, towards the end of August, bringing in the last man standing, too late for any pre-season, too late for the transfer window, and then wonder why we're mid-table come December ...

I was hoping that the reason Poch hadn't been re-appointed was the Paratici situation, but now that that's been resolved there doesn't seem to have been any change, so who knows.

TTony · April 2023

Mason confirmed as interim interim manager for the rest of the season

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2023/april/club-update-from-daniel/

Well, I never saw that coming

guitars4you · April 2023

TTony said:

Mason confirmed as interim interim manager for the rest of the season

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2023/april/club-update-from-daniel/

Well, I never saw that coming

what the sacking, or interim mk11

TTony · April 2023

^^^

Mason should have been given the job when Conte went home.

Philly_Q · April 2023

TTony said:

Mason confirmed as interim interim manager for the rest of the season

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2023/april/club-update-from-daniel/

Well, I never saw that coming

Good to know they're in total control of the situation. Now it's just a case of waiting for Nuno to be available....

....Bettencourt this time.

Nitefly · April 2023

thecolourbox said:

The Newcastle spurs game yesterday was what I like to call a Mick McCarthy result. "Well we drew the second half..."

lol - even Blackpool chucked him out!

Nitefly · April 2023

Teetonetal said:

TTony said:

guitars4you said:

Is the delay as the owners don't know what they want - Or do the potential managers not fancy either clubs for one reason or another

Really don't understand the delay at Spurs.

Could be that no one wants the job!

Not as daft as it sounds - I'm sure these guys talk to each other, so they'd be aware of at least some of the internal situation at many clubs.

guitars4you · April 2023

TTony said:

^^^

Mason should have been given the job when Conte went home.

Hardly Stellemi's fault is it - It is a bit like giving the man in charge of pedalo's at Clacton on Sea the job of skipper of the Titanic 10 mins before it hit the iceberg - The board need to look at themselves and see how stupid they've handled themselves, starting with Poch , what was it, 4 years ago

TeleMaster · April 2023

That Spurs job is a weird one. You can take it, get paid amazingly, do shit, and still come out of it without having a mark on your character.

No one thinks Poch, Mourinho, Conte did a bad job there. They think it's the owner the culture. It's remarkable.

Philly_Q · April 2023

TeleMaster said:

That Spurs job is a weird one. You can take it, get paid amazingly, do shit, and still come out of it without having a mark on your character.

No one thinks Poch, Mourinho, Conte did a bad job there. They think it's the owner the culture. It's remarkable.

I think there's an interesting contrast with Man U. The post-Fergie managers have taken nearly all the blame for the club's failures... there was some criticism of players, but not much. At Spurs, it's pretty much the opposite.

At Man U, Ten Hag came in, worked with an underperforming squad, took no shit, and sorted things out (not quite there yet, but he's made huge strides). Conte came into a similar situation, made the team worse, publicly slagged off the players... and gets praised for it.

(That said, not all Spurs managers are the same. I think Poch did do a good job, until the very end... and poor old Nuno didn't escape criticism, he was ripped apart.)

TTony · April 2023

Philly_Q said:

TeleMaster said:

That Spurs job is a weird one. You can take it, get paid amazingly, do shit, and still come out of it without having a mark on your character.

No one thinks Poch, Mourinho, Conte did a bad job there. They think it's the owner the culture. It's remarkable.

I think there's an interesting contrast with Man U. The post-Fergie managers have taken nearly all the blame for the club's failures... there was some criticism of players, but not much. At Spurs, it's pretty much the opposite.

Indeed, an interesting contrast.

Possibly because the reputation of Mourinho & Conte is "bigger" than the reputation of Spurs, whereas the reputation of Man Utd is bigger than some of their failed managers (Moyes, Solskjaer, Rangnick)?

scrumhalf · April 2023

When Poch came in he spent a season or so clearing out the players who didn't meet his standards.

The new boss, whoever, whenever, will need to do the same. Our defence is past its sell-by date, we need a lock-picker in midfield and in all likelihood a replacement for Kane.

Mason can't do that, half of them are his ex team mates.

Teetonetal · April 2023

I dont think either mourinho or conte have left spurs with reputations intact.

TTony · April 2023

scrumhalf said:

When Poch came in he spent a season or so clearing out the players who didn't meet his standards.

If he goes to Chelsea, he's going to need a couple of seasons just to get the squad down to a size where he can remember the names.

PoChelsea is just *wrong*. I'll cry. If Chelsea can appoint a proper manager, before the end of the season, why can't we? OK, their need is greater (hello Frank), but not by much.

I can see a repeat of the Nuno farce coming. We're linked with every manager you've ever heard of, and a few more besides, throughout the summer, yet they all get disregarded one-by-one, or go elsewhere, leaving us to appoint Billy-never-heard-of (except it won't be "Biliy", it'll be some foreign variation thereof), just before/after the season starts.

We win our first game (a 1-0 thrashing of Luton probably), draw the next 2, and then lose 4 games in a row to leave us bottom of the table, stumble a draw in our first EuropaHireVanConference league match against a pub team from Romania, and then Levy decides to sack Billy-never-heard-of and brings Hoddle back.

I'm writing off next season already ...

Philly_Q · April 2023

TTony said:
PoChelsea is just *wrong*. I'll cry. If Chelsea can appoint a proper manager, before the end of the season, why can't we? OK, their need is greater (hello Frank), but not by much.

I can see a repeat of the Nuno farce coming. We're linked with every manager you've ever heard of, and a few more besides, throughout the summer, yet they all get disregarded one-by-one, or go elsewhere, leaving us to appoint Billy-never-heard-of (except it won't be "Biliy", it'll be some foreign variation thereof), just before/after the season starts.

I think you've answered that question yourself in the next paragraph.

mrkb · April 2023

Philly_Q said:

TTony said:
PoChelsea is just *wrong*. I'll cry. If Chelsea can appoint a proper manager, before the end of the season, why can't we? OK, their need is greater (hello Frank), but not by much.

I can see a repeat of the Nuno farce coming. We're linked with every manager you've ever heard of, and a few more besides, throughout the summer, yet they all get disregarded one-by-one, or go elsewhere, leaving us to appoint Billy-never-heard-of (except it won't be "Biliy", it'll be some foreign variation thereof), just before/after the season starts.

I think you've answered that question yourself in the next paragraph.

Lampard to spurs? That’s the dream ticket

TTony · April 2023

Levy has done some great things for Spurs from a business perspective (as he would - he owns ~30% personally), but there are some football decisions that I just can't understand.

FFS, bringing Poch back as soon as Conte left would have been win-win-win. Watching him go to Chelsea is rubbing serious salt into the wounds and the fans are not going to let that lie quietly if Chelsea outperform Spurs next season.

But I get the feeling that Levy is also a stubborn b'stard and Poch (rightfully) criticised Levy re the squad investment a few years ago, and I think that's Poch's boats all burned with Levy. Which is absolutely 'kin crazy when you look at how much money Spurs have wasted on manager payoffs and crap player buys (backing those sacked managers) since Poch left.

But I'd still rather have a Levy there, with some connection to the club, rather than an Arab sovereign wealth fund or American investment trust owning it - and those are really the only likely options.

CHRISB50 · April 2023

mrkb said:

Philly_Q said:

TTony said:
PoChelsea is just *wrong*. I'll cry. If Chelsea can appoint a proper manager, before the end of the season, why can't we? OK, their need is greater (hello Frank), but not by much.

I can see a repeat of the Nuno farce coming. We're linked with every manager you've ever heard of, and a few more besides, throughout the summer, yet they all get disregarded one-by-one, or go elsewhere, leaving us to appoint Billy-never-heard-of (except it won't be "Biliy", it'll be some foreign variation thereof), just before/after the season starts.

I think you've answered that question yourself in the next paragraph.

Lampard to spurs? That’s the dream ticket

I’d pay his cab fare.

UnclePsychosis · April 2023

TTony said:

Philly_Q said:

TeleMaster said:

That Spurs job is a weird one. You can take it, get paid amazingly, do shit, and still come out of it without having a mark on your character.

No one thinks Poch, Mourinho, Conte did a bad job there. They think it's the owner the culture. It's remarkable.

I think there's an interesting contrast with Man U. The post-Fergie managers have taken nearly all the blame for the club's failures... there was some criticism of players, but not much. At Spurs, it's pretty much the opposite.

Indeed, an interesting contrast.

Possibly because the reputation of Mourinho & Conte is "bigger" than the reputation of Spurs, whereas the reputation of Man Utd is bigger than some of their failed managers (Moyes, Solskjaer, Rangnick)?

Conte's reputation is definitely being helped by the fact that every week since the Spurs squad have proved his rant about them to be absolutely-100%-bang-on-the-money.

sev112 · April 2023

Great win for West Ham in the Youth Final

Philly_Q · April 2023

UnclePsychosis said:
Conte's reputation is definitely being helped by the fact that every week since the Spurs squad have proved his rant about them to be absolutely-100%-bang-on-the-money.

Yeah, but he was getting paid millions of pounds a year (did he even last a year?) to do something about it. And he failed miserably.

I can't believe I'm mentioning bloody Man U again, but Ten Hag didn't come in to Man U and go "the squad are a bunch of thick lazy underperforming cunts, now can I have my money?". He sorted things out and made them better.

Barnezy · April 2023

Philly_Q said:

UnclePsychosis said:
Conte's reputation is definitely being helped by the fact that every week since the Spurs squad have proved his rant about them to be absolutely-100%-bang-on-the-money.

Yeah, but he was getting paid millions of pounds a year (did he even last a year?) to do something about it. And he failed miserably.

I can't believe I'm mentioning bloody Man U again, but Ten Hag didn't come in to Man U and go "the squad are a bunch of thick lazy underperforming cunts, now can I have my money?". He sorted things out and made them better.

Conte is a great manager. He improved Tottenham as much as he could, but you can’t make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. When your players have looser mentalities, there’s a limit to what you can achieve with them.

You mention ETH but he got to bring in 4 new players and 2 loan players. What do these players all have in common… they are all aggressive and want to win. Bringing those players in has impacted the rest of the team. Conte hasn’t had this, he’s meant to teach losers how to be winners, it's impossible.

TeleMaster · April 2023

Yea the difference is one coach was backed and the other one wasn't!

At the moment it seems like you can go to Spurs, get a big contract, do shit, and come out with a completely untarnished reputation. It's the perfect job!

TTony · April 2023

TeleMaster said:

Yea the difference is one coach was backed and the other one wasn't!

Players brought in by Conte/Paritici;

Spence £15m (loaned out)
Udogie £20m (loaned out)
Danjuma loan-to-buy
Porro £40m
Kulusevski loan-to-buy
Bentancur £20m
Bissouma £30m
Romero £50m
Richarlison £60m

That's 9 players and ~£250m over 3 transfer windows. He can't say he wasn't backed.

In a similar period, Mourinho brought in 10 players (including Bale's loan). Of those, only one (Hojbjerg) is still at Spurs. Of the players he used in his final season (20/21), only Hojbjerg, Kane, Son, Dier and Lloris are still regular players - and we may have seen the last of Lloris.

That sort of turnover doesn't allow a team to build and gel.

TeleMaster · April 2023

TTony said:

TeleMaster said:

Yea the difference is one coach was backed and the other one wasn't!

Players brought in by Conte/Paritici;

Spence £15m (loaned out)
Udogie £20m (loaned out)
Danjuma loan-to-buy
Porro £40m
Kulusevski loan-to-buy
Bentancur £20m
Bissouma £30m
Romero £50m
Richarlison £60m

That's 9 players and ~£250m over 3 transfer windows. He can't say he wasn't backed.

In a similar period, Mourinho brought in 10 players (including Bale's loan). Of those, only one (Hojbjerg) is still at Spurs. Of the players he used in his final season (20/21), only Hojbjerg, Kane, Son, Dier and Lloris are still regular players - and we may have seen the last of Lloris.

That sort of turnover doesn't allow a team to build and gel.

Teams like that need multi season spends like that to keep up. £250m in two years is a lot but do you have an ageing, inferior squad of players who aren't up to it to begin with? Is it just a drop in the ocean if you need a whole squad overhaul? That could be 3 decent players and others who haven't performed. Man Utd bought Sancho for a shed load of money and he just lost it and had to go to another country to train at a specialist camp.

People say the same about West Ham spending £190m but really we still have old strikers, defenders, fullbacks in our first team, and if any of the new players get injured we're relying on Ogbonna who is about 35 to keep up with the likes of Saka, so actually we probably need another £190m next year to fill those gaps. So the outlay doesn't really reflect the overall picture. I'm not saying a lot of money hasn't been spent, it has, but it does seem to have been spent poorly but you can't expect every transfer to work out either. Some things are out of the hands of the manager.

guitars4you · April 2023

Congrats to Burnley - I bet that really pee'd off the Blackburn fans - one of the oldest rivalries in football so to win the EFL title in such a back yard - Hope Kompany stays at Burnley, certainly for next year at least and ignores the talk about those wanting to head hunt him

axisus · April 2023

guitars4you said:

Congrats to Burnley - I bet that really pee'd off the Blackburn fans - one of the oldest rivalries in football so to win the EFL title in such a back yard - Hope Kompany stays at Burnley, certainly for next year at least and ignores the talk about those wanting to head hunt him

Yeah, I'd like t see how they do in the Prem with him.

guitars4you · April 2023

TeleMaster said:

TTony said:

TeleMaster said:

Yea the difference is one coach was backed and the other one wasn't!

Players brought in by Conte/Paritici;

Spence £15m (loaned out)
Udogie £20m (loaned out)
Danjuma loan-to-buy
Porro £40m
Kulusevski loan-to-buy
Bentancur £20m
Bissouma £30m
Romero £50m
Richarlison £60m

That's 9 players and ~£250m over 3 transfer windows. He can't say he wasn't backed.

In a similar period, Mourinho brought in 10 players (including Bale's loan). Of those, only one (Hojbjerg) is still at Spurs. Of the players he used in his final season (20/21), only Hojbjerg, Kane, Son, Dier and Lloris are still regular players - and we may have seen the last of Lloris.

That sort of turnover doesn't allow a team to build and gel.

Teams like that need multi season spends like that to keep up. £250m in two years is a lot but do you have an ageing, inferior squad of players who aren't up to it to begin with? Is it just a drop in the ocean if you need a whole squad overhaul? That could be 3 decent players and others who haven't performed. Man Utd bought Sancho for a shed load of money and he just lost it and had to go to another country to train at a specialist camp.

People say the same about West Ham spending £190m but really we still have old strikers, defenders, fullbacks in our first team, and if any of the new players get injured we're relying on Ogbonna who is about 35 to keep up with the likes of Saka, so actually we probably need another £190m next year to fill those gaps. So the outlay doesn't really reflect the overall picture. I'm not saying a lot of money hasn't been spent, it has, but it does seem to have been spent poorly but you can't expect every transfer to work out either. Some things are out of the hands of the manager.

I think the other point is that when you spend £40m on the likes of Porro and £50M on Romero, then you should be buying the finished article - £5/10/15 million and you can take a chance and see how it pans out and develop them accordingly - But to be fair I bet many teams have such players lurking around in the sad corner of their changing room who just under perform - It doesn't help with many changes of management who adopt a different style of game plan and what they expect from you - Such changes don't suit all players, so a lot of blame can go to various factors within the club set up as well - Maybe just shows what is now wrong with our game with so much money and so much debt within the game

Yet look at Villa - I don't know what Emery has spent but it won't be much - But that IMO is what management is about - Take an existing set of players and mold them into a team with a game plan that suits

TTony · April 2023

TeleMaster said:

Teams like that need multi season spends like that to keep up. £250m in two years is a lot but do you have an ageing, inferior squad of players who aren't up to it to begin with? Is it just a drop in the ocean if you need a whole squad overhaul?

On paper, we *should* have a pretty decent first-11, though Lloris is struggling now and I doubt he'll be around next season and we've really missed Bentancur for a bit of creative guile in midfield.

It's an ageing squad, not least because neither Moaniho or Conte brought through any of the younger players (and/or ignored the younger players who were bought in).

I'd blame Moaniho, Nuno and Conte for failing to build and manage a team. They've had the money to spend. They've had the time to have an impact. But they've either wasted the cash or failed to develop the players into an effective team. Or both.

We've also sold players who have gone on to play much better elsewhere, in positions where we're still weak.

Foyth (cultured RCB) went to Villareal - he'd make a great partnership with Romero
Joe Rodon (decent CB) - loaned out after never getting a game and a decent backup to Foyth/Romero
Carter-Vickers (decent CB) - loaned out anywhere for years, but now a rock at Celtic
Walker-Peters (RB) off to Soton who we tried to replace with Doherty/Royal and then £40m on Porro (I'd argue none are better)
Spence (RB/RWB) - again better than Doherty/Royal, proven in English football, and half the cost of Porro
Gil (RW) - has more creativity than the the rest of the squad put together but "wasn't big enough"
Ndombelazygit - far from my favourite player, but about to win a league title with Napoli (on loan) whereas he couldn't get a game for Spurs (possibly because he never moved quickly enough to get on the pitch in time for kick off)

I want a build-a-team manager, not a buy-some-mercenaries manager. Someone who'll trust some of the younger players and give them the time/support/protection to gel into a Spurs team. Someone who'll play football that focuses on trying to score goals rather than trying to avoid conceding them. Someone who brings a bit of excitement and passion (for the team rathe than their own career achievements).

guitars4you · April 2023

So who is going to be watching Man City v Arsenal tonight - Although with BT showing all games live I dare say some will be glued to the appropriate channel showing their team - I'll keep an eye open on the West Ham/Liverpool + Forest/Brighton games - But looking forward to the City game - Hope it is something like a 3-2 classic (to Arsenal) - Couple of glasses of wine and nibbles ready

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

The Football Thread.

Comments