The Rugby Union Thread

crunchman · September 2023

pigface said:

crunchman said:

It's not the whole solution, but limiting the number of subs would help with the "bash, bash, and more bash" problem. Forwards would have to last 80 minutes so would have to train with more emphasis on cardio and endurance rather than power. That would make them lighter, which would help. If the pitch isn't full of players who are 18 or 20 stones, then smaller backs wouldn't be such a liability defensively, and might get a game.

Players would also be tiring in the last 20 minutes, so there would be more space for those twinkle-toed players to play.

I've thought this for a long time, but the issue is complicated by injuries. I wouldn't like to back to the farce of "doctor's notes" for subs. A difficult question, I think.

One option might be that any player who is subbed has to miss the next match (or even 2 matches). That way there is a disincentive to sub your players, and it's not dependent on dodgy doctors notes. It's not a great solution, as players in a big match wouldn't care that much about missing the next match if it's less important. If you miss the Namibia game after being subbed in a game against France, it's not a big deal. I can't think of anything better though.

digitalscream · September 2023

crunchman said:

pigface said:

crunchman said:

It's not the whole solution, but limiting the number of subs would help with the "bash, bash, and more bash" problem. Forwards would have to last 80 minutes so would have to train with more emphasis on cardio and endurance rather than power. That would make them lighter, which would help. If the pitch isn't full of players who are 18 or 20 stones, then smaller backs wouldn't be such a liability defensively, and might get a game.

Players would also be tiring in the last 20 minutes, so there would be more space for those twinkle-toed players to play.

I've thought this for a long time, but the issue is complicated by injuries. I wouldn't like to back to the farce of "doctor's notes" for subs. A difficult question, I think.

One option might be that any player who is subbed has to miss the next match (or even 2 matches). That way there is a disincentive to sub your players, and it's not dependent on dodgy doctors notes. It's not a great solution, as players in a big match wouldn't care that much about missing the next match if it's less important. If you miss the Namibia game after being subbed in a game against France, it's not a big deal. I can't think of anything better though.

Just reduce the size of the bench. If you've got a couple of forwards and a couple of backs, they have to be utility players and thus not as useful as specialists. That removes the incentive straight away.

sev112 · September 2023

Any kick from hand that goes past the 22 zone of the kicker gives the ball to the other side where the kick was made, 7 unless the ball is kicked directly to ground. That would stop the kick fest.

sev112 · September 2023

crunchman said:

pigface said:

crunchman said:

It's not the whole solution, but limiting the number of subs would help with the "bash, bash, and more bash" problem. Forwards would have to last 80 minutes so would have to train with more emphasis on cardio and endurance rather than power. That would make them lighter, which would help. If the pitch isn't full of players who are 18 or 20 stones, then smaller backs wouldn't be such a liability defensively, and might get a game.

Players would also be tiring in the last 20 minutes, so there would be more space for those twinkle-toed players to play.

I've thought this for a long time, but the issue is complicated by injuries. I wouldn't like to back to the farce of "doctor's notes" for subs. A difficult question, I think.

One option might be that any player who is subbed has to miss the next match (or even 2 matches). That way there is a disincentive to sub your players, and it's not dependent on dodgy doctors notes. It's not a great solution, as players in a big match wouldn't care that much about missing the next match if it's less important. If you miss the Namibia game after being subbed in a game against France, it's not a big deal. I can't think of anything better though.

Love this ^

scrumhalf · September 2023

Reduce the number of subs and find a way of eliminating the "new front row on 50 minutes" ploy.

No rolling mauls from 5m lineouts.

Get rid of the caterpillar at the base of the ruck.

Defending team cannot be offside after receiving a box kick. That might cut them down.

Missed penalties to have a scrum as a restart if the ball has gone out of play.

kaypeejay · September 2023

scrumhalf said:

Reduce the number of subs and find a way of eliminating the "new front row on 50 minutes" ploy.

No rolling mauls from 5m lineouts.

Get rid of the caterpillar at the base of the ruck.

Defending team cannot be offside after receiving a box kick. That might cut them down.

Missed penalties to have a scrum as a restart if the ball has gone out of play.

Oh yes. This is one thing that does my head in, especially when the ref shouts 'use it' and then it still gets shuffled backwards through 3 sets of legs!!

Ironically, one of the aberrations, the non-straight put in to the scrum actually speeds the game up a bit!

fretmeister · September 2023

sev112 said:

Any kick from hand that goes past the 22 zone of the kicker gives the ball to the other side where the kick was made, 7 unless the ball is kicked directly to ground. That would stop the kick fest.

They do something similar in Ice Hockey.

It's called "icing" and it happens when a player tries to smack the puck the entire length of the rink. There was a famous game where the teams basically stood in front of their own goals and just hammered it at the other to see if they could get lucky.

Pjon · September 2023

hywelg said:

digitalscream said:

Rocker said:

Limiting the number of subs is an idea worth looking into. Also I think all penalties should be kicked from the hand and do away with the stupid tees. Conversions can be a drop goal attempt from anywhere outside the 20 metre line, again do away with the tee. For penalties, teams could keep the options that are in place now, the kicks for goal is the part that needs speeding up.
IMHO anyway.

Or you could simply reduce the number of penalties - if any player gets a third penalty against them, it's an automatic yellow card.

There would be a couple of shitty seasons while everybody adjusts to the new world order, but there would be an incentive to run the ball and scrummage cleanly instead of spending five minutes slowly shuffling into a kickable position and then playing for penalties.

The idea of playing for penalties as a tactic in rugby is no different to footballers rolling around on the floor like they've been shot, IMO.

How about for every 5 penalties a team concedes they send a man to the bin for 10 mins, any man , not necessarily the one conceding the last penalty.

I do think that there are too many subs. Reduce to 6 then reevaluate. Ideally get it down to 4 and then teams would have to keep these back to cover injuries.

The problem is that the officiating team will then have to make big decisions about sending players off, which means that obvious penalties will be deliberately missed. We already see variations in red card/high tackle offences, depending on which team is playing, and, for instance, a collapsed maul in mid-field at the beginning of the game isn't as weighted as the same offence within 5m of the line. What we don't need are supporters complaining that, for example, a prop collapsed a scrum 5 times in a game and should have been penalised and sent off but wasn't even pinged.

We should make the game simpler, and most of the rules are already there.

fretmeister · September 2023

Pjon said:

hywelg said:

digitalscream said:

Rocker said:

Limiting the number of subs is an idea worth looking into. Also I think all penalties should be kicked from the hand and do away with the stupid tees. Conversions can be a drop goal attempt from anywhere outside the 20 metre line, again do away with the tee. For penalties, teams could keep the options that are in place now, the kicks for goal is the part that needs speeding up.
IMHO anyway.

Or you could simply reduce the number of penalties - if any player gets a third penalty against them, it's an automatic yellow card.

There would be a couple of shitty seasons while everybody adjusts to the new world order, but there would be an incentive to run the ball and scrummage cleanly instead of spending five minutes slowly shuffling into a kickable position and then playing for penalties.

The idea of playing for penalties as a tactic in rugby is no different to footballers rolling around on the floor like they've been shot, IMO.

How about for every 5 penalties a team concedes they send a man to the bin for 10 mins, any man , not necessarily the one conceding the last penalty.

I do think that there are too many subs. Reduce to 6 then reevaluate. Ideally get it down to 4 and then teams would have to keep these back to cover injuries.

The problem is that the officiating team will then have to make big decisions about sending players off, which means that obvious penalties will be deliberately missed. We already see variations in red card/high tackle offences, depending on which team is playing, and, for instance, a collapsed maul in mid-field at the beginning of the game isn't as weighted as the same offence within 5m of the line. What we don't need are supporters complaining that, for example, a prop collapsed a scrum 5 times in a game and should have been penalised and sent off but wasn't even pinged.

We should make the game simpler, and most of the rules are already there.

And the football rolling around pretending to be injured things will get worse.

Rocker · September 2023

How or what is the deciding factor for infringements to penalise when a scrum collapses or goes wrong in some way. I know the referee is right beside the action but with so much movement and aggression, which ‘bit’ is chosen?

I did not play rugby so hence my question. Thanks.

sev112 · September 2023

Whichever prop or hooker squeals in a high pitched tone means the other side has done something illegal involving their eyes, nose or nuts

Gassage · September 2023

My exclusive with the great @Davidcampese11

‘Crisis will turn into unmitigated disaster if Wallabies lose to Wales'

#RugbyWorldCup #rugbyworldcup2023 #ausvwal

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/crisis-will-turn-into-unmitigated-disaster-if-wallabies-lose-to-wales

Gassage · September 2023

Rocker said:

How or what is the deciding factor for infringements to penalise when a scrum collapses or goes wrong in some way. I know the referee is right beside the action but with so much movement and aggression, which ‘bit’ is chosen?

I did not play rugby so hence my question. Thanks.

There's really 3 parts to the scrum.

Pre-engage- the ref is looking for the hooker to have a brake foot, for the engagement to be stable and for the teams to take the weights without pushing.

Engagement- stability key, want to see height- nobody putting knees or hands on ground, drive straight, don't use angles.

Post engagement- again, drive straight, keep stable height, no hinging, no bellying.

Personally I'd mitigate all offences until post engagement as a FK, not a PK. Refs get a LOT wrong- hinging is the worst one- I cannot understand how refs ping LHs when they're on their feet and the TH his on his belly.

Gassage · September 2023

And for those still getting their backrows WRONG- read on. Clarity for you..

Chris Robshaw exclusive: World Cup back-rows and their responsibilities : PlanetRugby

fretmeister · September 2023

It's official - Dupont has a maxillo-zygomatic fracture.

Random image of one:

Image: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fplasticsurgerykey.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F11%2FC63-FF1-1.gif%3Fw%3D960&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=8d234d0cc6bbdce2791123ceadb39904f8a1d3fed28305037ef6bb1d2216498f&ipo=images

It's the lower one.

Gassage · September 2023

fretmeister said:

It's official - Dupont has a maxillo-zygomatic fracture.

Random image of one:

It's the lower one.

Not quite- whatsapped with Ollivon this morning off record and it has transpired he may well have an orbital fracture too and is now with a specialist in Toulouse seeking second opinion.

Fra are downplaying this. Serin already with squad.

Dr_Necessiter · September 2023

Rocker said:

How or what is the deciding factor for infringements to penalise when a scrum collapses or goes wrong in some way. I know the referee is right beside the action but with so much movement and aggression, which ‘bit’ is chosen?

I did not play rugby so hence my question. Thanks.

You're as educated as the next person. I've played in games where the ref couldn't decide who was infringing and so just gave alternate penalties to one side then the next when a scrum collapsed - that's at a pretty low level though. For me it's nigh on impossible to work out what caused an infringement i.e. was a collapse caused by legitimate scrummaging or by pulling down etc.

Pjon · September 2023

Dr_Necessiter said:

Rocker said:

How or what is the deciding factor for infringements to penalise when a scrum collapses or goes wrong in some way. I know the referee is right beside the action but with so much movement and aggression, which ‘bit’ is chosen?

I did not play rugby so hence my question. Thanks.

You're as educated as the next person. I've played in games where the ref couldn't decide who was infringing and so just gave alternate penalties to one side then the next when a scrum collapsed - that's at a pretty low level though. For me it's nigh on impossible to work out what caused an infringement i.e. was a collapse caused by legitimate scrummaging or by pulling down etc.

And there have been several games during this RWC where the ref has just ignored continually collapsed scrums and told the 9 to play it.

crunchman · September 2023

At this level they should probably have a 4th official for the scrums who has a background as a front row forward.

fretmeister · September 2023

crunchman said:

At this level they should probably have a 4th official for the scrums who has a background as a front row forward.

As someone who played a lot at tighthead I'd say this would be like a magician breaking the code!

TJT1979 · September 2023

Hard to read much into any result against Chile but Eng looked like a tram enjoying themselves at least. I actually quite like Smith at fullback but he wasn’t tested at all with high balls.

It’ll be interesting to see what team Borthwick selects for the QFs….

sev112 · September 2023

TJT1979 said:

Hard to read much into any result against Chile but Eng looked like a tram enjoying themselves at least. I actually quite like Smith at fullback but he wasn’t tested at all with high balls.

It’ll be interesting to see what team Borthwick selects for the QFs….

They’ve certainly been playing like a tram for the past few years, but 8 think I get where you are going

digitalscream · September 2023

One conclusion is that Smith at FB and Arundell on the wing work really well together.

Let's not forget...Jason Robinson was legendary at full-back, and he's shorter than Smith. OK, granted he was legendary wherever he played, but still...Smith's got a little bit of that zip and all of that desire to run it, and he does seem a lot more exciting than any of our other options there when he's got some space to work with.

Malins was a bit of a mess, I don't recall him ever doing anything useful in an England shirt.

Daly actually seemed more comfortable at 13.

Farrell...seemed pretty meh, to be honest, but at least he managed to stay on the pitch. Would much rather see Ford at 10, though.

TJT1979 · September 2023

digitalscream said:

One conclusion is that Smith at FB and Arundell on the wing work really well together.

Let's not forget...Jason Robinson was legendary at full-back, and he's shorter than Smith. OK, granted he was legendary wherever he played, but still...Smith's got a little bit of that zip and all of that desire to run it, and he does seem a lot more exciting than any of our other options there when he's got some space to work with.

Malins was a bit of a mess, I don't recall him ever doing anything useful in an England shirt.

Daly actually seemed more comfortable at 13.

Farrell...seemed pretty meh, to be honest, but at least he managed to stay on the pitch. Would much rather see Ford at 10, though.

Agree with all of that. Mike Brown was good under the high ball too, and not tall.

Malins has looked uncomfortable in every Eng match he’s played.

And yes, Daly IMO is a centre. He can cover wing or FB in a pinch but he’s always looked better at 13.

Farrell… hard to say really. He didn’t stand out… neither in a positive nor a negative way. I guess no high tackles is a positive…

Schnozz · September 2023

I really hope Ireland win this one!

ewal · September 2023

Schnozz said:

I really hope Ireland win this one!

As at Scotland supporter, I think I want SA to win. But that doesn't feel right. A draw maybe?

Pleased to see neither time resorting to too much kicking. So far at least.

scrumhalf · September 2023

I don't think Farrell did enough, which probably means he's nailed on to start. Smith was exciting to watch, as was Arundell, but this was a glorified training session.

sev112 · September 2023

Harsh on Malins, he has been fine for England at a time when lots of people have been crap. His problem is that fine is not enough for an international winger, he is not fast enough. I like him but he’s a utility reserve back at best

daly at centre looked good ; tuiliagi inside him would be good

Arundel and may or Steward on the wings would also be good

ewal · September 2023

ewal said:

Schnozz said:

I really hope Ireland win this one!

As at Scotland supporter, I think I want SA to win. But that doesn't feel right. A draw maybe?

Pleased to see neither time resorting to too much kicking. So far at least.

Brilliant game btw.

Schnozz · September 2023

ewal said:

ewal said:

Schnozz said:

I really hope Ireland win this one!

As at Scotland supporter, I think I want SA to win. But that doesn't feel right. A draw maybe?

Pleased to see neither time resorting to too much kicking. So far at least.

Brilliant game btw.

It's like an advert for 'roids o' the veterinary grade.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

The Rugby Union Thread

Comments