Pele v Messi and Ronaldo

Gassage · September 2023

I’m no big football fan but when people suggest Messi is better than Pele I have to chuckle at the pure recency bias.

Some website is claiming Messi better. Ridiculous, I say.

Pele was a global superstar without insta and social. A phenomenon- an icon. Everyone knows who he is, even my mum. Messi is great but he ain’t Pele.

But when you break the stats down it’s a bigger gap than ever I thought:

World Cups: Pele- 3, Messi 1

International careers

Pele games per goal 1.19

Messi games:goal 1.69

World cup careers

Pele games/goal: 1.16

Messi games/goal: 2:00

Club

Pele-1,283 in 1367 - 1.06

Messi- 715 in 865 - 1.2

There’s literally no plausible argument for Messi.

Fight.

MagicPigDetective · September 2023

Maradona

Gassage · September 2023

MagicPigDetective said:

Maradona

Cheats eliminated from scope.

fretmeister · September 2023

Here you go.

The Football thread - Off Topic Discussions on theFretBoard

Sassafras · September 2023

George Best could outdrink the lot of 'em.

Blueingreen · September 2023

Gassage said:

I’m no big football fan but when people suggest Messi is better than Pele I have to chuckle at the pure recency bias.

Some website is claiming Messi better. Ridiculous, I say.

Pele was a global superstar without insta and social. A phenomenon- an icon. Everyone knows who he is, even my mum. Messi is great but he ain’t Pele.

But when you break the stats down it’s a bigger gap than ever I thought:

World Cups: Pele- 3, Messi 1

International careers
Pele games per goal 1.19
Messi games:goal 1.69

World cup careers
Pele games/goal: 1.16
Messi games/goal: 2:00

Club
Pele-1,283 in 1367 - 1.06
Messi- 715 in 865 - 1.2

There’s literally no plausible argument for Messi.

Fight.

I don't have an opinion about which was better, I haven't seen enough of Pele, legend though he was. But I'd take issue with the logic here. If the guy who was the greatest player ever happened to be born in, (fairly randomly), Greece, he'd have no world cups. His goals per game ratio would reflect the fact that he was playing with players who were moderate by international standards and in teams who were often playing defensively against better sides. The obvious principle is that your stats won't just reflect how good you are, they will be affected by the quality of the teams you play in and the quality of the opposition.

Pele played in a Brazil side that were generally regarded as by a distance the most talented of their era. They played adventurous, attacking football. He played his club football mainly domestically, while Messi went abroad.

Pele also started his career at a time when football tactics, especially defensive tactics, were much less well developed. Relative to later on, there was less focus on preventing the opposition from scoring.

Pele may or may not have been the better player, but I don't think your stats shed much light on the question either way.

AK99 · September 2023

Sassafras said:

George Best could outdrink the lot of 'em.

True.

And also outplay them - according to Pele (and me)

Teetonetal · September 2023

I see your recency Bias and raise you a better in my day bias.

Comparing eras is stupid.

TeleMaster · September 2023

Well, I am a big football fan and you can never know the answer to this. Pele played in a time with barely any sports science, he played against a lot of part timers and a lot of his goals are unverified or against literal farmers. He also never played in Europe and spent a chunk of his career in the USA, a very poor league. Defenders and goalkeepers were also largely underdeveloped at the time and the game was played at a snails pace, but he was obviously vastly superior to most he played against and lit up the world cup on multiple occasions, although Brazil was often the best team in these competitions.

If you went back in a Doleran and brought Pele in his prime to a Premier League game today he wouldn't even touch the ball. The game is so technical, so fast, the players are such athletes that it wouldn't even be a contest, so a like for like comparison just makes no sense. See this as an example.

But if you were to take an 8 year old Pele and bring him to 2012 and gave him all the benefits of modern sports science, tactics would he have been able to compete at the top level in 2023 or would he have had a limit? You have to assume he would be a top player but we will never know.

Also, calling it recency bias is unfair. The level of competition was just worlds apart even in the early 90's to what it was in the 00's, when sports science really took off. The game is vastly superior today to Pele's day so you can only really judge players based on the era they played in, and he was one of, if not the best of his time and that means he gets to sit at the best ever table with the likes of Best, Cryuff, Maradona, Platini, Van Basten, Harry Maguire, Di Stefano, Moore, Henry, CR7, R9, Messi etc.

guitars4you · September 2023

Gassage said:

MagicPigDetective said:

Maradona

Cheats eliminated from scope.

100% agree - Yes he was a talented footballer - But a) a cheat and everyone saw it and b) a dope head who mixed socially with the mafia in Italy

The cheating alone destroys, IMO, any chance he could have ever had to be considered a great player and to laugh it of as sometime kind of hand of God incident , rubs it in further

Ben Johnson was crucified for cheating and Maradona should have received the same treatment

TeleMaster · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Gassage said:

MagicPigDetective said:

Maradona

Cheats eliminated from scope.

100% agree - Yes he was a talented footballer - But a) a cheat and everyone saw it and b) a dope head who mixed socially with the mafia in Italy

The cheating alone destroys, IMO, any chance he could have ever had to be considered a great player and to laugh it of as sometime kind of hand of God incident , rubs it in further

Ben Johnson was crucified for cheating and Maradona should have received the same treatment

Yea and let's not forget that he was found to be using performance enhancing drugs too. He was a genius but these drugs enhance everything from how you train, the gains you make, your recovery, your speed, everything. If Usain Bolt was found to be doping in some of his races no one would ever respect anything he ever did but Maradona gets a pass for some reason.

guitars4you · September 2023

Hard to say who is the best - Opinions will drives the argument so hard in such circumstances

Nostalgia for me will always say Pele - First WC I saw was 1970 and as such probably the greatest team ever played in that tournament - Many will not realise, or even forget, that the Brazilian forward line all played #10 for their appropriate clubs - Jairzinho, Gerson, Tostoa, Pele and Rivelino - All #10 and no wingers or centre forwards

As a person Pele always came across as a nice humble guy and Messi never has the chip on his shoulder that Ronaldo has - I think Messi's assist is far higher than Ronaldo - If you watch Messi score he will nearly always ensure it is a team celebration and go to who ever set up the assist - Ronaldo will alway make it out to be me - Yes I scored it and I'll let you know its me and no one else could have scored it, other than me

I'm glad I've seen them both, on TV and have fond memories of both - I'll happily say Pele or Messi is the best - Ron's ego will stop me saying he is the best and Maradona is not even invented to the party

guitars4you · September 2023

@gassage - I know you are a big rugby fan - And I dare say both sports are similar in that how can you define the best - Pele was a crap defender and I dare say Messi was worse still - As a team sport you need your 'water carriers' as well as you flash, skilful guys - Easy to say that Pele and Messi are two of the most influential and skilful players the game has seen

So how could you compare M Johnson, to Campese, to Jonah, to Carter, to McCaw, to B John or G Edwards - All mighty influential in their appropriate roles - But none of them are the best

axisus · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

Well, I am a big football fan and you can never know the answer to this. Pele played in a time with barely any sports science, he played against a lot of part timers and a lot of his goals are unverified or against literal farmers. He also never played in Europe and spent a chunk of his career in the USA, a very poor league. Defenders and goalkeepers were also largely underdeveloped at the time and the game was played at a snails pace, but he was obviously vastly superior to most he played against and lit up the world cup on multiple occasions, although Brazil was often the best team in these competitions.

If you went back in a Doleran and brought Pele in his prime to a Premier League game today he wouldn't even touch the ball. The game is so technical, so fast, the players are such athletes that it wouldn't even be a contest, so a like for like comparison just makes no sense. See this as an example.

But if you were to take an 8 year old Pele and bring him to 2012 and gave him all the benefits of modern sports science, tactics would he have been able to compete at the top level in 2023 or would he have had a limit? You have to assume he would be a top player but we will never know.

Also, calling it recency bias is unfair. The level of competition was just worlds apart even in the early 90's to what it was in the 00's, when sports science really took off. The game is vastly superior today to Pele's day so you can only really judge players based on the era they played in, and he was one of, if not the best of his time and that means he gets to sit at the best ever table with the likes of Best, Cryuff, Maradona, Platini, Van Basten, Harry Maguire, Di Stefano, Moore, Henry, CR7, R9, Messi etc.

Thankyou! You saved me from typing roughly the same comments very badly !

scrumhalf · September 2023

Pele played in a time when the ball was heavy, pitches weren't the lush carpets they are nowadays, you couldn't goal hang and then step back to be onside and defenders could sever your leg with a tackle and beat you unconscious with it, prompting only a mild rebuke from the ref.

distressed · September 2023

Since all that stuff cannot be measured and is completely subjective, I'd say Maradona and original Brasilian Ronaldo.

guitars4you · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

Well, I am a big football fan and you can never know the answer to this. Pele played in a time with barely any sports science, he played against a lot of part timers and a lot of his goals are unverified or against literal farmers. He also never played in Europe and spent a chunk of his career in the USA, a very poor league. Defenders and goalkeepers were also largely underdeveloped at the time and the game was played at a snails pace, but he was obviously vastly superior to most he played against and lit up the world cup on multiple occasions, although Brazil was often the best team in these competitions.

If you went back in a Doleran and brought Pele in his prime to a Premier League game today he wouldn't even touch the ball. The game is so technical, so fast, the players are such athletes that it wouldn't even be a contest, so a like for like comparison just makes no sense. See this as an example.

But if you were to take an 8 year old Pele and bring him to 2012 and gave him all the benefits of modern sports science, tactics would he have been able to compete at the top level in 2023 or would he have had a limit? You have to assume he would be a top player but we will never know.

Also, calling it recency bias is unfair. The level of competition was just worlds apart even in the early 90's to what it was in the 00's, when sports science really took off. The game is vastly superior today to Pele's day so you can only really judge players based on the era they played in, and he was one of, if not the best of his time and that means he gets to sit at the best ever table with the likes of Best, Cryuff, Maradona, Platini, Van Basten, Harry Maguire, Di Stefano, Moore, Henry, CR7, R9, Messi etc.

Fully equate with where you are coming from - But take your comment about Pele not playing in Europe - Most players never left their own country in the 50's, 60's or 70's, let alone their own continent

I think it was part of the magic of the WC back then that you saw these 'god like' stars - And only saw them every 4 years - Even the equivalent of the CL back then was only televised for the final - So we barely ever saw the likes of Cruyff - Kempes in 1978 was I think the first 'overseas' player I was aware of from South America, prior to the WC as he had played in Spain - I think 1978 was also his last game/tournament for Argentina - Cruyff had moved to Barca but such moves were still rare - Kempes and Cruyff both retired from international football far to early, for one reason or another

Yes the modern game is fast, but you get great players like Modric and Pirlo who are not your typical athletic pacy players - They just have a great footballing brain and awareness and can run a game whilst still strolling about

guitars4you · September 2023

distressed said:

Since all that stuff cannot be measured and is completely subjective, I'd say Maradona and original Brasilian Ronaldo.

Sorry guys I just don't get the love of Maradona - I know Gary Linekar worships him which is even more baffling when he cheated him out of a chance of an extended run in the WC - He was a cheat and he was proud of what he did that day, which makes it even worse - I'd add T Henry to the same list with his handball v Ireland in a qualifying match

I know cheating is common practice in the game, but for such players to glorify it makes it worse

But then add Maradona's drug antics, both social and performance enhancing, then he has no right to be considered a global icon - He should have recieved the same disgraceful outcome as per Ben Johnson and indeed Lance Armstrong

And don't forget his nice kick to the Brazilian players balls/groin, in the WC in 1982 when he was sent off - Yes I'm sure he was a nice guy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TeleMaster · September 2023

guitars4you said:
Yes the modern game is fast, but you get great players like Modric and Pirlo who are not your typical athletic pacy players - They just have a great footballing brain and awareness and can run a game whilst still strolling about

Exceptions to the rule, not the rule. They work because of the pace of the game, they can become invisible and are there to take the ball and find a particular player with technical ability, but I doubt a whole team of players strolling around would work

S56035 · September 2023

Gassage said:

MagicPigDetective said:

Maradona

Cheats eliminated from scope.

Specifically which bit of cheating? If it's just the handball then every footballer cheats multiple times a game.

distressed · September 2023

guitars4you said:

distressed said:

Since all that stuff cannot be measured and is completely subjective, I'd say Maradona and original Brasilian Ronaldo.

Sorry guys I just don't get the love of Maradona - I know Gary Linekar worships him which is even more baffling when he cheated him out of a chance of an extended run in the WC - He was a cheat and he was proud of what he did that day, which makes it even worse - I'd add T Henry to the same list with his handball v Ireland in a qualifying match

I know cheating is common practice in the game, but for such players to glorify it makes it worse

But then add Maradona's drug antics, both social and performance enhancing, then he has no right to be considered a global icon - He should have recieved the same disgraceful outcome as per Ben Johnson and indeed Lance Armstrong

And don't forget his nice kick to the Brazilian players balls/groin, in the WC final in 1982 when he was sent off - Yes I'm sure he was a nice guy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you dismiss Maradona because he was open with his cheating, while other players deny theirs?

I don't consider him a global icon - he was for sure drug fueled lunatic of some sort. But I thought that this thread was purely about talent and football skills.

distressed · September 2023

And for non-athletic players with brains, I'll add Zidane - one of a kind monster player.

TeleMaster · September 2023

S56035 said:

Gassage said:

MagicPigDetective said:

Maradona

Cheats eliminated from scope.

Specifically which bit of cheating? If it's just the handball then every footballer cheats multiple times a game.

He used performance enhancing drugs and was banned for it. He was an actual cheat, not just a diving primadonna.

S56035 · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

S56035 said:

Gassage said:

MagicPigDetective said:

Maradona

Cheats eliminated from scope.

Specifically which bit of cheating? If it's just the handball then every footballer cheats multiple times a game.

He used performance enhancing drugs and was banned for it. He was an actual cheat, not just a diving primadonna.

Oooh, that's seems to have been wiped from my memory. I second the decision!

distressed · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

He used performance enhancing drugs and was banned for it. He was an actual cheat, not just a diving primadonna.

That way you can write off entire NBA history. And I'm not sure about recent players and potential uses of drugs of all sorts. Bear in mind that there are loads of serious allegations against the FIFA and UEFA staff, that went under the carpet. The show must go on.

TeleMaster · September 2023

distressed said:

TeleMaster said:

He used performance enhancing drugs and was banned for it. He was an actual cheat, not just a diving primadonna.

That way you can write off entire NBA history. And I'm not sure about recent players and potential uses of drugs of all sorts. Bear in mind that there are loads of serious allegations against the FIFA and UEFA staff, that went under the carpet. The show must go on.

Okay write them off then. Bunch of fucking cheats. I'm not going to excuse them for it.

crunchman · September 2023

Pelew

TeleMaster said:

If you went back in a Doleran and brought Pele in his prime to a Premier League game today he wouldn't even touch the ball. The game is so technical, so fast, the players are such athletes that it wouldn't even be a contest, so a like for like comparison just makes no sense.

I had to LOL that.

Have you actually watched any video of Pele?

TeleMaster · September 2023

crunchman said:

Pelew

TeleMaster said:

If you went back in a Doleran and brought Pele in his prime to a Premier League game today he wouldn't even touch the ball. The game is so technical, so fast, the players are such athletes that it wouldn't even be a contest, so a like for like comparison just makes no sense.

I had to LOL that.

Have you actually watched any video of Pele?

Of course. Have you watched the modern game in the last 30 years?

Do you believe that if you plucked Pele out of the 60's, during his prime and picked him for the Champions League final 2023 that he would've been the best player on the pitch, and wouldn't have found real difficulties with the modern demands of dealing wih a high press, or even penetrating a low block, and dealing with counter attacking football, 6ft 5 defenders and goalkeepers who play like playmakers? Do you think he would've had no issue whatsoever eith the pace, the level of technical ability, the athleticism?

Shrews · September 2023

--------------------------(1)Yashin------------------------------

-----(2)C.Alberto-----(4)Beckenbauer-----(3)Maldini-----

(Tactic: lob it up to the 7 up front and go to the Winchester for a pint)

(7) Best--------------(5) Zidane----(6)Messi---------------(11)C.Ronaldo

------------(10)Maradona------(9)Pele------(8)Cruyff---------------

B Team

--------------------------(1)Banks------------------------------

-----(2)Vogts-----(4)Moore-----(3)R.Carlos-----

(Tactic: lob it up to the 7 up front and go to the Winchester for a pint with the A Team defenders)

(7) Jairzinho--------------(5) Di Stefano----(6)Zico---------------(11)Gullit

------------(10)Eusebio------(9)Ronaldo------(8)Puskas---------------

crunchman · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

crunchman said:

Pelew

TeleMaster said:

If you went back in a Doleran and brought Pele in his prime to a Premier League game today he wouldn't even touch the ball. The game is so technical, so fast, the players are such athletes that it wouldn't even be a contest, so a like for like comparison just makes no sense.

I had to LOL that.

Have you actually watched any video of Pele?

Of course. Have you watched the modern game in the last 30 years?

Do you believe that if you plucked Pele out of the 60's, during his prime and picked him for the Champions League final 2023 that he would've been the best player on the pitch, and wouldn't have found real difficulties with the modern demands of dealing wih a high press, or even penetrating a low block, and dealing with counter attacking football, 6ft 5 defenders and goalkeepers who play like playmakers? Do you think he would've had no issue whatsoever eith the pace, the level of technical ability, the athleticism?

He wouldn't have as much space and time as he did in the 60's, but to say "he wouldn't even touch the ball" is totally ridiculous.

How many players in the game have the kind of control you see in number 3 and number 1 in this video?

That control on his chest was amazing. That kind of control makes you a great player in any era.

Look at the power he had on the the free kick. The keeper didn't even move. That's with a much heavier ball as well. There are not many players in the game today who have that kind of power.

He was incredibly athletic. Look at the leap he gets on that header. It's not shown in that short video, but he was also very fast - especially earlier in his career. He was undoubtedly more athletic and significantly faster than Messi. He had more power. He was much better in the air. Yet he also had the control and the more subtle aspects to his game. If Messi can dominate in this era, then Pele could.

As for the modern sports science thing, the winning time in the mens 100m in the world championship this year was only 0.04s quicker than in 1987. Give Carl Lewis a modern track and modern shoes, and he might well have won it this year if you could get your hypothetical Delorean.

TeleMaster · September 2023

No one is debating his greatness. But his greatness was of the time. You're not being objective here because you seem to be aggressively fanboying over Pele. You also don't seem to respect the advancements of the game and the science around football, the tactics. You only need to watch a Premier league game to see the wildly different level of skill, technique and demand of today's game. And while the defending in that clip was woeful and it completely proves the point people are making in this thread, you are free to disagree and ignore that. Whatever you want, it's cool. Night night.

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Pele v Messi and Ronaldo

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