Pele v Messi and Ronaldo

Cranky · September 2023

100% with @TeleMaster.

But I like Ronaldo more than Messi, and Ronaldinho is the greatest footballer ever. Just pure talent, nevermind goals/game.

(I have a thing for offensive midfielders and for that reason can never forgive the Premier League for wasting the talents of Gio Dos Santos.)

Stats alone are not persuasive. As an American, I’ve had to put up with sports pundits proclaiming the virtues of Landon fucking Donovan, who scored a ton of goals (any in Europe?) but couldn’t create his own shot if his life depended on it even against shit American competition. (American soccer is so boring and lifeless.)

munckee · September 2023

Surely Jordan Henderson is the greatest, can hold down a central midfield role for England despite not playing any league games and will earn £60,000,000 for 3 years of playing in the desert league.

stufisher · September 2023

I'm surprised no-one has played the 'team game' card

An individual, sublimely talented or not, is only one of eleven (oops ... Seven of Nine just popped into my head

) so the ability to shape, drive, manage, nurture, lead other talents around them is hugely significant - especially when comparing successes at global level.

IMHO Pele sparkled in the era of the greatest team so that's something I guess. Maradona got booted off the park in 1978 as a young'n but had the skill, resilience, resolve and flair to prevail through adversity (pre-cheat, drug-fuelled era). Ronaldo is so far up his own arse his ego is boss and I immediately ban him from the discussion. Messi is a team player through and through ... Watch the docus about him, it's all there to see.

So, I think there are a few elements to the term 'greatest player':

- most skilled
- best footballing brain
- best team player
- favourite player

There are probably more but based on the above, for me Pele's the man.

TeleMaster · September 2023

Cranky said:

100% with @TeleMaster.

But I like Ronaldo more than Messi, and Ronaldinho is the greatest soccer player ever. Just pure talent, nevermind goals/game.

(I have a thing for offensive midfielders and for that reason can never forgive the Premier League for wasting the talents of Gio Dos Santos.)

Stats alone are not persuasive. As an American, I’ve had to put up with sports pundits proclaiming the virtues of Landon fucking Donovan, who scored a ton of goals (any in Europe?) but couldn’t create his own shot if his life depended on it even against shit American competition. (American soccer is so boring and lifeless.)

I'd also rather have Ronaldo in my team because of the style of play I prefer to watch. Messi is the better player but if I were a manager I'd rather have a fast attacking team, that dispossesses the opposition with a high press, and overloading the flanks and goes for goal, be it by counter attack or playing out from the back and I think Ronaldo is suited better to that style of play, although I'm sure he would be lazy in the press. I also grew up watching him play at Man Utd on the TV, I've even seen him play in the flesh now so I have more of a connection to him over Messi. He does come across terribly self obsessed and the allegations that surround him are very problematic.

I agree that Ronaldinho is up there, his 2005/06 season was just phenomenal. Sometimes I just have these Barca games on while I'm cooking and doing the dishes and you can't believe what he could do with the ball. The modern game is just something else.

crunchman · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

No one is debating his greatness. But his greatness was of the time. You're not being objective here because you seem to be aggressively fanboying over Pele. You also don't seem to respect the advancements of the game and the science around football, the tactics. You only need to watch a Premier league game to see the wildly different level of skill, technique and demand of today's game. And while the defending in that clip was woeful and it completely proves the point people are making in this thread, you are free to disagree and ignore that. Whatever you want, it's cool. Night night.

Nobody in the today's Premier league has better control than Pele did. I see very few, if any players with that level of control. The way he controlled the ball in that video I showed was astounding. Find some video of him dribbling, and how close he kept the ball under control. It's on completely different level.

victorludorum · September 2023

Pele was in Escape To Victory too, we seem to have forgotten that!

S56035 · September 2023

Cranky said:

100% with @TeleMaster.

But I like Ronaldo more than Messi, and Ronaldinho is the greatest soccer player ever. Just pure talent, nevermind goals/game.

(I have a thing for offensive midfielders and for that reason can never forgive the Premier League for wasting the talents of Gio Dos Santos.)

Stats alone are not persuasive. As an American, I’ve had to put up with sports pundits proclaiming the virtues of Landon fucking Donovan, who scored a ton of goals (any in Europe?) but couldn’t create his own shot if his life depended on it even against shit American competition. (American soccer is so boring and lifeless.)

GTFO!

Reverend · September 2023

Charles Charlie Charles was clearly the GOAT,

axisus · September 2023

Cranky said:

.... Ronaldinho is the greatest soccer player ever. Just pure talent, nevermind goals/game.

Incredible talent, but the wrong attitude. Too much of a party boy. If only he'd have been more like Cristiano for dedication.

Shrews · September 2023

This is like picking a team when you were kids and you were the captain. It's your ball and you get to pick first. All players are in their prime. Line all the players up, who's your first pick?

Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Pele
Ronaldo (Brazil)
Messi
Best
Di Stefano
Puskas
C.Ronaldo
Rumenigge
Moore
Jairzinho
Gullit
Banks
Socrates
Maradona
Roberto Carlos
Figo
Zoff
Yashin
Ronaldinho
Maldini
Zidane
Buffon
Gerd Muller
Carlos Alberto
Eusebio
Zico
Vogts
Van Basten

victorludorum · September 2023

Shrews said:

This is like picking a team when you were kids and you were the captain. It's your ball and you get to pick first. All players are in their prime. Line all the players up, who's your first pick?

Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Pele
Ronaldo (Brazil)
Messi
Best
Di Stefano
Puskas
C.Ronaldo
Rumenigge
Moore
Jairzinho
Gullit
Banks
Socrates
Maradona
Roberto Carlos
Figo
Zoff
Yashin
Ronaldinho
Maldini
Zidane
Buffon
Gerd Muller
Carlos Alberto
Eusebio
Zico
Vogts
Van Basten

Hoddle

TeleMaster · September 2023

victorludorum said:

Shrews said:

This is like picking a team when you were kids and you were the captain. It's your ball and you get to pick first. All players are in their prime. Line all the players up, who's your first pick?

Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Pele
Ronaldo (Brazil)
Messi
Best
Di Stefano
Puskas
C.Ronaldo
Rumenigge
Moore
Jairzinho
Gullit
Banks
Socrates
Maradona
Roberto Carlos
Figo
Zoff
Yashin
Ronaldinho
Maldini
Zidane
Buffon
Gerd Muller
Carlos Alberto
Eusebio
Zico
Vogts
Van Basten

Hoddle

Keegan. Won two Balon D'Ors.

crunchman · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

Hoddle

Keegan. Won two Balon D'Ors.

But he played 40 years ago. Harry Maguire must be a much better player because of modern sports science.

TeleMaster · September 2023

crunchman said:

TeleMaster said:

Hoddle

Keegan. Won two Balon D'Ors.

But he played 40 years ago. Harry Maguire must be a much better player because of modern sports science.

Well this is more a comment on how bad he is despite all the advancements in the game...

Creed_Clicks · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Gassage said:

MagicPigDetective said:

Maradona

Cheats eliminated from scope.

100% agree - Yes he was a talented footballer - But a) a cheat and everyone saw it and b) a dope head who mixed socially with the mafia in Italy

And Peter Shilton should have saved it all day long. Peter Shilton, the prick, still banging on about it.

mo6020 · September 2023

I'm not old enough to have watched Pele, or Maradona in his peak, but Leo Messi is the best footballer I've ever had the priviledge of watching, and I'm Spurs fan so that's saying something.

The original Ronaldo was something special as well, he was absolutely unstoppable until his knee exploded.

JMS96 · September 2023

guitars4you said:

100% agree - Yes he was a talented footballer - But a) a cheat and everyone saw it and b) a dope head who mixed socially with the mafia in Italy

And Peter Shilton should have saved it all day long. Peter Shilton, the prick, still banging on about it.

It’s incredible that people still have a hang up about Maradona’s handball nearly 40 years ago. It happens in every game, players get called out for deliberate handball. So what? If you wrote each one off for cheating you wouldn’t have any left. Maradona was clearly a genius, the best player of his generation and possibly any generation. From a difficult background and catapulted into superstardom - a bit of a tragic story. But clearly a footballing genius.

I spent a day with Peter Shelton a few years ago at a charity football thing. It was hilarious that he couldn’t stop talking about it either. What a knob!

TeleMaster · September 2023

mo6020 said:

I'm not old enough to have watched Pele, or Maradona in his peak, but Leo Messi is the best footballer I've ever had the priviledge of watching, and I'm Spurs fan so that's saying something.

The original Ronaldo was something special as well, he was absolutely unstoppable until his knee exploded.

Finally getting to see some quality must have been a treat.

Cranky · September 2023

S56035 said:

Cranky said:

100% with @TeleMaster.

But I like Ronaldo more than Messi, and Ronaldinho is the greatest soccer player ever. Just pure talent, nevermind goals/game.

(I have a thing for offensive midfielders and for that reason can never forgive the Premier League for wasting the talents of Gio Dos Santos.)

Stats alone are not persuasive. As an American, I’ve had to put up with sports pundits proclaiming the virtues of Landon fucking Donovan, who scored a ton of goals (any in Europe?) but couldn’t create his own shot if his life depended on it even against shit American competition. (American soccer is so boring and lifeless.)

GTFO!

Lol. I figured if I called it “American football” people might be confused. Mai should have just said futbol.

The top one was a genuine error, I forgot where my server was for a moment. Fixed!

Cranky · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

I agree that Ronaldinho is up there, his 2005/06 season was just phenomenal. Sometimes I just have these Barca games on while I'm cooking and doing the dishes and you can't believe what he could do with the ball. The modern game is just something else.

Tears to my eyes, bro, not even exaggerating. To watch him play and smile at the same time. Jogo bonito in action.

S56035 · September 2023

Cranky said:

S56035 said:

Cranky said:

100% with @TeleMaster.

But I like Ronaldo more than Messi, and Ronaldinho is the greatest soccer player ever. Just pure talent, nevermind goals/game.

(I have a thing for offensive midfielders and for that reason can never forgive the Premier League for wasting the talents of Gio Dos Santos.)

Stats alone are not persuasive. As an American, I’ve had to put up with sports pundits proclaiming the virtues of Landon fucking Donovan, who scored a ton of goals (any in Europe?) but couldn’t create his own shot if his life depended on it even against shit American competition. (American soccer is so boring and lifeless.)

GTFO!

Lol. I figured if I called it “American football” people might be confused. Mai should have just said futbol.

Why is American Football called football? I enjoy the game so not being sarcastic. I once read it was because the ball was a foot long? Jags fan by the way.

guitars4you · September 2023

I also forgot, but had to google it to confirm it, but Maradona was also banned in Spain for 3 months for fighting on the pitch

Cranky · September 2023

S56035 said:

Cranky said:

S56035 said:

Cranky said:

100% with @TeleMaster.

But I like Ronaldo more than Messi, and Ronaldinho is the greatest soccer player ever. Just pure talent, nevermind goals/game.

(I have a thing for offensive midfielders and for that reason can never forgive the Premier League for wasting the talents of Gio Dos Santos.)

Stats alone are not persuasive. As an American, I’ve had to put up with sports pundits proclaiming the virtues of Landon fucking Donovan, who scored a ton of goals (any in Europe?) but couldn’t create his own shot if his life depended on it even against shit American competition. (American soccer is so boring and lifeless.)

GTFO!

Lol. I figured if I called it “American football” people might be confused. Mai should have just said futbol.

Why is American Football called football? I enjoy the game so not being sarcastic. I once read it was because the ball was a foot long? Jags fan by the way.

I think it’s because they run on their feet while holding a ball.

MagicPigDetective · September 2023

guitars4you said:
guitars4you said:

I also forgot, but had to google it to confirm it, but Maradona was also banned in Spain for 3 months for fighting on the pitch

Thing is, I just can’t help loving Maradona, even with all his faults…. he was a warrior, from the streets, who fought his way to the top with unbelievable battling spirit, charisma, leadership and skills, taking an average club and national side to the pinnacle. At a time when defenders could hack you to pieces and pitches were terrible. He had faults and issues but he was a human that made bad choices, for me that’s more relatable than the perfectly behaved athlete but rather boring person. The brilliant ‘Diego’ film encapsulates all this stuff.

As for the England match, perhaps have a go at the terrible kick by Fenwick that led to that goal….. and acknowledge a series of disgraceful dirty tackles on Diego by the English players in that match. Here's a brilliant quote about it from this article that will give insights into different perspectives : The typical U.S., British moralistic view said that was cheating, but across Latin America, Africa, and the Third World, they view it as a form of humiliating a former colonial power and the ultimate expression of cunning or shrewdness, which is central to a ludic conception of the game (and of life) that stands outside of the realm of morality.

For me, he’s the greatest footballer of all time

Shrews · September 2023

Shrews said:

This is like picking a team when you were kids and you were the captain. It's your ball and you get to pick first. All players are in their prime. Line all the players up, who's your first pick?

Cruyff
Beckenbauer
Pele
Ronaldo (Brazil)
Messi
Best
Di Stefano
Puskas
C.Ronaldo
Rumenigge
Moore
Jairzinho
Gullit
Banks
Socrates
Maradona
Roberto Carlos
Figo
Zoff
Yashin
Ronaldinho
Maldini
Zidane
Buffon
Gerd Muller
Carlos Alberto
Eusebio
Zico
Vogts
Van Basten

To be honest, looking at my own list, I think I'd choose a player first who can run the game from the middle. Any of the strikers, keepers or defenders will be good enough, but there's not many who could control the game from the middle. So I think Zidane would be first on my list.

Now, does that mean I think he's the best?

scrumhalf · September 2023

That list should include Jimmy Greaves.

blobb · September 2023

I came here to say Jimmy Greaves as well. He was the greatest goal scorer of them all, although Brian Clough runs him close.

mo6020 · September 2023

TeleMaster said:

mo6020 said:

I'm not old enough to have watched Pele, or Maradona in his peak, but Leo Messi is the best footballer I've ever had the priviledge of watching, and I'm Spurs fan so that's saying something.

The original Ronaldo was something special as well, he was absolutely unstoppable until his knee exploded.

Finally getting to see some quality must have been a treat.

I’ll set ‘em up, you knock ‘em down

swiller · September 2023

Messi is the GOAT imho. Appearances, trophies won by team etc is irrelevant. So is whether they were coked up, got caught punching a budgie etc. All about skill, style, passion and entertainment.

Pele footage is not as mesmerising as messi on the ball, nor is c.ronaldos.

My top 3 GOATs would be
1) Messi
2) Maradona
3) Ronaldinho

Greaves, Rooney, Gascoigne i think for top 3 UK goats.

RocknRollDave · September 2023

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Pele v Messi and Ronaldo

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