Andertons/Victory

thecolourbox · August 2023

Business man in music business invests in a business in the music business. How very shocking. I paid £20 to a local GoFundMe campaign for a new live venue opening up near me, doe that make me a co-owner? Do I need to declare this on every public music thing I do?

Gassage · August 2023

I don't actually have that much time for Lee (not because of this, but more so to buying practices/cartel stuff - loose term there, plus the fact he's a knob and I find his videos utterly cringeworthy), but even I knew he was part of Victory setup and I have NEVER even considered buying one or looking at one.

I also think he's a hell of a shrewd businessman to keep going when others have failed so regularly.

I have shares in a number of companies, one such is class A shares of a biz I helped found, but it doesn't mean to say I'm an active partner nor that I really own them.

KDH needs to go on a basic business course.

Never have so many words been committed on Youtube to such a non-event!

Power_Freak · August 2023

digitalscream said:

I'd have thought most people know there's a cooperative relationship between Andertons and Victory anyway (whether they know about Lee Anderton's private affairs is entirely different), and I would hope most people hold that opinion of KDH's output

Honestly, anybody who thinks Lee Anderton's up to something shady here - as KDH tries to imply - has never met the guy.

I'm hardly a target consumer for Victory - but I had no idea there was any relation between Victory and Andertons.

As I said before, I'm significantly more switched on than the "average" consumer (which is the important yardstick - you can't use a bunch of forum dwellers to represent the "average" consumer here, we're a subsample of nerds). It's the "average" consumer that needs to be considered in these sorts of things, and by how this has blown up it's pretty clear it wasn't "obvious" that there was a relationship there.

It's also important to separate the 3 entities (on the Anderton's side):
- Anderton's the store
- Lee Anderton the private citizen
- Lee Anderton the influencer

The first 2 can really do what they like in terms of relationship with Victory - stores have relations with brands whether directly/indirectly (if you're buying a sizeable amount of stock from a brand you get at least some influence on their direction), and nobody can tell a private citizen who they can/can't invest money into and there's no requirement to discuss personal investment matters.

The sticky point is the 3rd one - like it or not Anderton's YouTube channel is more than an "advertisement for the store" these days, it is a social media entity in its own right independent of the store (e.g. imagine they renamed the channel "captain and the gang" or something tomorrow - they'd still get the same viewership despite not being related to a store). This is why there's a bit of a backlash around this, it's not Lee the person or Anderton's the store, it's the social media presence - and TBF to them, Victory probably started back when their channel didn't have the clout it has now and was probably less of an issue. In hindsight now it comes across worse.

Petepassion · August 2023

digitalscream said:

Petepassion said:
.
Whether you call it a showcase, review, demo or something else comes down to semantics.

It's not semantics, really - showcase/demo are essentially the same thing, but a review is a demo with recommendations; it's basically the difference between "here are the features" and "you should/shouldn't buy this". That's a hugely important distinction.

Petepassion said:

If people know already or think KDH is a prat, no worries, move on.

I'd have thought most people know there's a cooperative relationship between Andertons and Victory anyway (whether they know about Lee Anderton's private affairs is entirely different), and I would hope most people hold that opinion of KDH's output

Honestly, anybody who thinks Lee Anderton's up to something shady here - as KDH tries to imply - has never met the guy.

Fair enough, let's call it a showcase or demo, the end result is the same. I think we can agree these showcases will have a positive effect on sales, especially if they show a particular amp in a positive light. So when showcasing three different amps just be open about the affiliations with certain brands. I, for one would like to know when watching someone showcasing three different brands, if they had an affiliation with one particular brand...surely that makes common sense as a consumer?

Regarding KDH, I've never heard of him until today, so no real opinion one way or the other yet.

TheBigDipper · August 2023

I didn't know that Lee Anderton had shares in Victory. It doesn't matter to me. The Andertons TV channel is not an independent reviewer of guitar-related gear giving unbiased consumer advice. They're generating demand for products that they sell. They'll not give anything they sell a bad review because that affects sales. Does anyone watch their vids and actually fail to understand Lee runs Andertons and they want to sell the products they are promoting in the vids?

DuploLicks · August 2023

I heard KDH got a job in a premier Dublin restaurant when they found out he was a top YouTube pot-stirrer

springhead · August 2023

I couldn’t care less about affiliations. He owns a shop and they’re selling stuff. Could be any other number of reasons why he’d want to showcase and hence promote and sell a particular brand or model. Overstocked, looking to drop that brand, model getting old and will be replaced. Affiliations are way down the list for me.

fretmeister · August 2023

Successful business owner makes successful investment into a company shocker!

KDH is a pillock. And he got his arse handed to him by Barefaced when KDH decided to post a completely wrong video about speaker cabs.

That's the difference between a mad inventor / actually qualified engineer and a gobshite.

darthed1981 · August 2023

roberty said:
Harley Benton isn't even a real person. They wanted something American sounding...

Not true.

Harley was a man's man, who wanted to make guitars that could easily with mods be the equal of the Gibson custom shop, but also with eleven herbs and spices.

So after winning a wrestling match with Mark Agnesi, and leaving him crying on the mat, writing "play authentic" in his own blood, Harley met German entrepreneur Thomann.

They travelled to the Far East and set up a factory, to sell the finest and coincidentally cheapest instruments through Thomanns huge German music store.

Harley therefore joined such greats as Squire Squier, Fred Eastcoast and Vinny Tage as a legend with his name on headstocks.

Petepassion · August 2023

Maybe it’s just me, I’m not a fan of the idea of chasing and maximising profits, but at the end of the day that’s the bulk of modern day business.

As an example, I own a small business myself, a motor vehicle service and repair workshop. Often we get asked if there is a body shop we can recommend, and for the past few years we have always recommended the same one. We ask the customer to tell the body shop we have sent them. Now normally if the body shop gets the job the business that put the work their way gets a commission which generally the customer will not be told about.
However, we ask the customer to report back to us if they should get the work done and make sure they are happy. The body shop knows that if we start getting bad reports then we will stop recommending them…and we tell the customer this. We never take a commission, it’s been offered in the past, but the problem is all too often money fucks with peoples ethics and I want no part of that.
I could expand, I could make more profit, but I’d rather maintain my integrity, as this is how I would want to be treated by other businesses. Im happy to just earn a living and very lucky to own a nice guitar and amp.

digitalscream · August 2023

Power_Freak said:

The sticky point is the 3rd one - like it or not Anderton's YouTube channel is more than an "advertisement for the store" these days, it is a social media entity in its own right independent of the store (e.g. imagine they renamed the channel "captain and the gang" or something tomorrow - they'd still get the same viewership despite not being related to a store).

Ah, see...there's a problem right there. Yes, it's an entity that's notionally capable of being its own thing if you don't look at the details, but it's not its own thing. Although, frankly, there's no way the YouTube revenue it could generate would even get close to the running costs of the channel (ie paying everyone involved, equipment costs etc) - Lee's on record as explicitly laying that out.

The YouTube channel is entirely run by and part of Andertons the company - the fact that the presenters have become famous as a result is neither here nor there. Those presenters have been instructed on things to say by Andertons the company, because it's essentially an audio-visual catalogue for the products sold in the shop.

It's basically no different as if the company's printed catalogue became sought-after and sold a few hundred thousand copies a year and a couple of columnists got famous because their product descriptions were funny. Another company's products being included in it with glowing recommendations wouldn't be particularly noteworthy because a catalogue is for selling things, regardless of whether the owner of the shop had shares in that company.

fretmeister · August 2023

Petepassion said:

Maybe it’s just me, I’m not a fan of the idea of chasing and maximising profits, but at the end of the day that’s the bulk of modern day business.
As an example, I own a small business myself, a motor vehicle service and repair workshop. Often we get asked if there is a body shop we can recommend, and for the past few years we have always recommended the same one. We ask the customer to tell the body shop we have sent them. Now normally if the body shop gets the job the business that put the work their way gets a commission which generally the customer will not be told about.
However, we ask the customer to report back to us if they should get the work done and make sure they are happy. The body shop knows that if we start getting bad reports then we will stop recommending them…and we tell the customer this. We never take a commission, it’s been offered in the past, but the problem is all too often money fucks with peoples ethics and I want no part of that.
I could expand, I could make more profit, but I’d rather maintain my integrity, as this is how I would want to be treated by other businesses. Im happy to just earn a living and very lucky to own a nice guitar and amp.

Chasing profit is the sole aim of any business. It's not a modern thing. It's been that way since the first bloke had a hammer and refused to share but would offer to come round and hammer things for you.

And BTW - not disclosing commissions can be somewhat problematic:

https://www.ftadviser.com/opinion/2021/11/30/the-rules-around-commissions-have-got-tougher/

The definition of "introducer" is getting wider by the minute. For some professions paying commissions (not just hiding them) is now illegal.

Petepassion · August 2023

fretmeister said:

Petepassion said:

Maybe it’s just me, I’m not a fan of the idea of chasing and maximising profits, but at the end of the day that’s the bulk of modern day business.
As an example, I own a small business myself, a motor vehicle service and repair workshop. Often we get asked if there is a body shop we can recommend, and for the past few years we have always recommended the same one. We ask the customer to tell the body shop we have sent them. Now normally if the body shop gets the job the business that put the work their way gets a commission which generally the customer will not be told about.
However, we ask the customer to report back to us if they should get the work done and make sure they are happy. The body shop knows that if we start getting bad reports then we will stop recommending them…and we tell the customer this. We never take a commission, it’s been offered in the past, but the problem is all too often money fucks with peoples ethics and I want no part of that.
I could expand, I could make more profit, but I’d rather maintain my integrity, as this is how I would want to be treated by other businesses. Im happy to just earn a living and very lucky to own a nice guitar and amp.

Chasing profit is the sole aim of any business. It's not a modern thing. It's been that way since the first bloke had a hammer and refused to share but would offer to come round and hammer things for you.

And BTW - not disclosing commissions can be somewhat problematic:

https://www.ftadviser.com/opinion/2021/11/30/the-rules-around-commissions-have-got-tougher/

The definition of "introducer" is getting wider by the minute. For some professions paying commissions (not just hiding them) is now illegal.

Sorry, but you are wrong, my business alone proves that.

But part of the reason we are in such chaos is because the majority of businesses do solely chase profit…it’s not a good thing.

Regarding hiding commissions? Lol, how do you think the financial economy and governments operate exactly?

Snags · August 2023

digitalscream said:

Also, this is yet another clear attempt by KDH to manufacture a (public) problem where there is none. To my knowledge, there's no legal requirement to publicly list shareholders in a partnership (I could be wrong on this), and that's all Lee is - a shareholder. Not a director, and not with any actual role in the company.

You are. Wrong, that is

If it's a Partnership rather than a Limited Company then all partners should be listed by name on all official documents (letterhead, website etc.) along with the formal correspondence address. Unless there are more than 20 partners.

If it's a Ltd Co then registration number etc. should be there and Co House will list directors and so on.

So the very vague Victory website is a little naughty. Along with thousands of others.

But I otherwise completely agree that KDH is trying to manufacture scandal like a tabloid journalist, whilst presenting like he's due a Pulitzer.

Petepassion · August 2023

fretmeister said:

Petepassion said:

Maybe it’s just me, I’m not a fan of the idea of chasing and maximising profits, but at the end of the day that’s the bulk of modern day business.
As an example, I own a small business myself, a motor vehicle service and repair workshop. Often we get asked if there is a body shop we can recommend, and for the past few years we have always recommended the same one. We ask the customer to tell the body shop we have sent them. Now normally if the body shop gets the job the business that put the work their way gets a commission which generally the customer will not be told about.
However, we ask the customer to report back to us if they should get the work done and make sure they are happy. The body shop knows that if we start getting bad reports then we will stop recommending them…and we tell the customer this. We never take a commission, it’s been offered in the past, but the problem is all too often money fucks with peoples ethics and I want no part of that.
I could expand, I could make more profit, but I’d rather maintain my integrity, as this is how I would want to be treated by other businesses. Im happy to just earn a living and very lucky to own a nice guitar and amp.

Chasing profit is the sole aim of any business. It's not a modern thing. It's been that way since the first bloke had a hammer and refused to share but would offer to come round and hammer things for you.

Ah, the idea that it all started with barter and trade? No, we actually started with gift economies. Barter and trade came later

Power_Freak · August 2023

digitalscream said:

Power_Freak said:

The sticky point is the 3rd one - like it or not Anderton's YouTube channel is more than an "advertisement for the store" these days, it is a social media entity in its own right independent of the store (e.g. imagine they renamed the channel "captain and the gang" or something tomorrow - they'd still get the same viewership despite not being related to a store).

Ah, see...there's a problem right there. Yes, it's an entity that's notionally capable of being its own thing if you don't look at the details, but it's not its own thing. Although, frankly, there's no way the YouTube revenue it could generate would even get close to the running costs of the channel (ie paying everyone involved, equipment costs etc) - Lee's on record as explicitly laying that out.

The YouTube channel is entirely run by and part of Andertons the company - the fact that the presenters have become famous as a result is neither here nor there. Those presenters have been instructed on things to say by Andertons the company, because it's essentially an audio-visual catalogue for the products sold in the shop.

It's basically no different as if the company's printed catalogue became sought-after and sold a few hundred thousand copies a year and a couple of columnists got famous because their product descriptions were funny. Another company's products being included in it with glowing recommendations wouldn't be particularly noteworthy because a catalogue is for selling things, regardless of whether the owner of the shop had shares in that company.

The revenue of the channel (be it in comparison to the store, running costs or in absolute terms) is not in question here - it's the level of influence. As a comparison look at certain "news" organisations that have been set up recently, they lose money hand over fist, doesn't mean they don't have an influence on the news agenda (you'll also notice a large portion of their viewership and influence comes from youtube, facebook and twitter by the by).

How many people watch a demo of a Victory product on the Andertons youtube channel then buy from another retailer for example? And who's to say the inclusion of Victory products in the early Anderton's demos didn't lead to the demand that led to other stores stocking Victory? If people were aware of the relations at that time would the demand have grown like it did? And so on. (I think the answer to the latter questions is ultimately: "it didn't make much difference" - but that is beside the point)

The "influencer" is a relatively new phenomena, and it needs to be treated carefully. That's why there's always huge arguments around Rick Beato and his choice of content, infringements and so on.

If you need further proof of the Anderton's channel influence you don't need to look past the whole Miku thing a few years ago, they basically singlehandedly sold out that pedal with a single video, do you think that really made a dent in the store's bottom line? It sure made a dent for Korg (and subsequently Reverb's commissions)....

fretmeister · August 2023

Petepassion said:

fretmeister said:

Petepassion said:

Maybe it’s just me, I’m not a fan of the idea of chasing and maximising profits, but at the end of the day that’s the bulk of modern day business.
As an example, I own a small business myself, a motor vehicle service and repair workshop. Often we get asked if there is a body shop we can recommend, and for the past few years we have always recommended the same one. We ask the customer to tell the body shop we have sent them. Now normally if the body shop gets the job the business that put the work their way gets a commission which generally the customer will not be told about.
However, we ask the customer to report back to us if they should get the work done and make sure they are happy. The body shop knows that if we start getting bad reports then we will stop recommending them…and we tell the customer this. We never take a commission, it’s been offered in the past, but the problem is all too often money fucks with peoples ethics and I want no part of that.
I could expand, I could make more profit, but I’d rather maintain my integrity, as this is how I would want to be treated by other businesses. Im happy to just earn a living and very lucky to own a nice guitar and amp.

Chasing profit is the sole aim of any business. It's not a modern thing. It's been that way since the first bloke had a hammer and refused to share but would offer to come round and hammer things for you.

And BTW - not disclosing commissions can be somewhat problematic:

https://www.ftadviser.com/opinion/2021/11/30/the-rules-around-commissions-have-got-tougher/

The definition of "introducer" is getting wider by the minute. For some professions paying commissions (not just hiding them) is now illegal.

Sorry, but you are wrong, my business alone proves that.
But part of the reason we are in such chaos is because the majority of businesses do solely chase profit…it’s not a good thing.

Regarding hiding commissions? Lol, how do you think the financial economy and governments operate exactly?

I run a business as well. And I'm in one of those where paying commissions is illegal.

I know exactly how it works and I'm very pleased that it has been made illegal for some professions. Please note that I do not consider being in the government to be a profession.

S56035 · August 2023

I hope Lee responds with mention of how much internet power he has!

fretmeister · August 2023

S56035 said:

I hope Lee responds with mention of how much internet power he has!

I think it's all of them. Have you noticed the distinct lack of Julians in the world these days.

Lee is collecting them and mashing them up in the basement of his lair to give him POWER!!!!!

Paul_C · August 2023

Sporky said:

Sprocket once gave Lee's nether regions a darned good sniffing on the common near my old house.

Lee took it well. I'm not sure he enjoyed it, but he took it like a trooper. I think that speaks well of him.

I'm sure there's a dogging joke in there somewhere, but I'm busy chasing profit

Sporky · August 2023

Paul_C said:

I'm busy chasing profit

I think that's the name of Lee's dog.

Hahaha.

Actually, all my encounters with him have been fine. I don't think he's actually much of a monster at all.

Petepassion · August 2023

@fretmeister ;
i wasn’t saying government is a profession, I was saying that government and big business are ultimately in each other’s pockets and the idea of outlawing undisclosed commissions will make little difference. That revolving door ignores all laws.
And for small businesses there’s quite often a way around this.
But going off at a slight tangent anyway.

darius · August 2023

I can’t even be arsed to comment on this non story.

DAMN!

munckee · August 2023

darius said:

I can’t even be arsed to comment on this non story.
DAMN!

Isn’t that a comment about the story?

Sporky · August 2023

I think that's why the "DAMN".

munckee · August 2023

Sporky said:

I think that's why the "DAMN".

These city boys are too quick for me.

fretmeister · August 2023

munckee said:

Sporky said:

I think that's why the "DAMN".

These city boys are too quick for me.

but they surrrre are pretty

darius · August 2023

munckee said:

Sporky said:

I think that's why the "DAMN".

These city boys are too quick for me.

You could make a 45min YouTube about this. “City boys should have declared their quickness before influencing my forum post”

Sporky · August 2023

darius said:

“City boys should have declared their quickness before influencing my forum post”

Isn't that a Chuck Tingle story?

darius · August 2023

Ok fine. I’m arsed.

Didn’t watch the vid.
I have always known Andertons are tied in with Victory.

There’s an always a Victory amp in use or in view in their vids. It’s very very obvious.

I had a Kraken. This was totally influenced by Rabeas’s involvement and zero influenced by Lee’s involvement.

It was unreliable, had one useable sound, I hated it and sold it almost immediately.

I won’t buy another one no matter how much Internet Power is wielded by the fiendish devil sales channels that I am totally free to not watch.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Andertons/Victory

Comments