Oh dear, not again Roger...

Sporky · May 2023

ICBM said:

BahHumbug said:

dazzajl said:

Absolute weapons grade bell end.

Short and to the point. Harsh, but very fair.

He can be, but in this case I think he’s being - quite possibly deliberately, due to some of his other views - unfairly attacked for what is actually satire *against* what he’s being accused of... and which he’s been doing since the album was originally made, it’s not new.

He certainly does have a massive blind spot over Ukraine (and others, eg Venezuela, Israel), and some of his pronouncements are at best ill-judged if not outright foolish, but I don’t think he sees Putin as a Nazi either - he has the problem of many on the left in particular as seeing everything in black and white and his enemy’s enemy as his friend, so ends up supporting very nasty regimes purely because they’re anti-American. It has to be said that it gives his detractors plenty of ammunition.

I'm not much fussed either way, but I think when you quack like a duck, dressing up like a duck is bound to give the impression that you're a bit of a duck.

Musicwolf · May 2023

Chuffola said:

Tannin said:

Rolf Harris' cell is empty. Put him in there.

And this is why the internet is not a place for nuanced debate.

And somewhat behind the times. Rolf Harris was released in May 2017.

bertie · May 2023

Sassafras said:

I often wear a Nazi Stormtrooper uniform ironically.

Ive got the pyjamas

Funkfingers said:

How long before The Sound Of Music film is banned for including characters in Nazi uniform?

spring time ?

axisus · May 2023

Bear in mind that it is illegal to dress up as a Nazi in Germany, although apparently it is allowed for artistic reasons.

tony99 · May 2023

Don't be thtupid be a thmarty, come and join the nazi party

ICBM · May 2023

Sporky said:

I'm not much fussed either way, but I think when you quack like a duck, dressing up like a duck is bound to give the impression that you're a bit of a duck.

It can depend on whether who's looking wants to see a duck.

Is Alf Garnett a racist character? Unquestionably. Was Warren Mitchell a racist, even if some people took Alf's utterances at face value instead of as satire? No.

Philly_Q · May 2023

ICBM said:

Sporky said:

I'm not much fussed either way, but I think when you quack like a duck, dressing up like a duck is bound to give the impression that you're a bit of a duck.

It can depend on whether who's looking wants to see a duck.

Is Alf Garnett a racist character? Unquestionably. Was Warren Mitchell a racist, even if some people took Alf's utterances at face value instead of as satire? No.

ICBM said:
He can be, but in this case I think he’s being - quite possibly deliberately, due to some of his other views - unfairly attacked for what is actually satire *against* what he’s being accused of... and which he’s been doing since the album was originally made, it’s not new.

Waters started dressing up as a Nazi-like character as satire, no doubt about that... but his personal pronouncements suggest he's slowly turning into that character (even if he thinks he isn't). Warren Mitchell never turned into Alf Garnett.

And I agree, it's not new. But just because he's been doing it for 40 years doesn't mean he has to do it in exactly the same way now as he did then. They could just re-design the costumes, for example, to make the same general point without looking so specifically like the well-known image of Hitler's Nazis. That image, in itself, has become so offensive that perhaps it defeats the very point he's trying to make - whatever the fuck that point now is.

Sporky · May 2023

Or if they're not aware of the context. Quacks like a duck and dressed like a duck - who's to know it's a squirrel perpetrating a hilarious social comment?

I'm not saying he's a duck, I'm saying that it's understandable that some people might think he's a bit ducky, even if they're not actually duck fanciers. I don't disagree that there are some people who on constant duck watch and have a hair trigger.

Perhaps when in a country with a particular attitude towards ducks one should dress as a swan instead. The joke would probably still work.

ICBM · May 2023

Yes, I agree with all that.

fretmeister · May 2023

He put the Star of David on the Pig.

Image: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fw-W4cVWwAEsOxT?format=jpg&name=900x900

He knew exactly what he was doing.

distressed · May 2023

He's not Nazi, that's for sure, not even close. On the other hand, he's an arrogant pretentious elderly prick, deeply buried in 20th century, with a messiah syndrome.

Kittyfrisk · May 2023

Philly_Q said:

ICBM said:

Sporky said:

I'm not much fussed either way, but I think when you quack like a duck, dressing up like a duck is bound to give the impression that you're a bit of a duck.

It can depend on whether who's looking wants to see a duck.

Is Alf Garnett a racist character? Unquestionably. Was Warren Mitchell a racist, even if some people took Alf's utterances at face value instead of as satire? No.

ICBM said:
He can be, but in this case I think he’s being - quite possibly deliberately, due to some of his other views - unfairly attacked for what is actually satire *against* what he’s being accused of... and which he’s been doing since the album was originally made, it’s not new.

Waters started dressing up as a Nazi-like character as satire, no doubt about that... but his personal pronouncements suggest he's slowly turning into that character (even if he thinks he isn't). Warren Mitchell never turned into Alf Garnett.

And I agree, it's not new. But just because he's been doing it for 40 years doesn't mean he has to do it in exactly the same way now as he did then. They could just re-design the costumes, for example, to make the same general point without looking so specifically like the well-known image of Hitler's Nazis. That image, in itself, has become so offensive that perhaps it defeats the very point he's trying to make - whatever the fuck that point now is.

Perfectly put. This is my take on the whole storm in a teacup.
40 years ago it was an incisive critique of repressive regimes.
Now it's looking more like the tonedeaf viewpoint of an intolerant, megalomaniac musician who refuses to take account of how people in 2023 view things, as he is right & they have to learn that he knows best.

scrumhalf · May 2023

He may not be a duck, but he's a ducking idiot.

Timcito · May 2023

Philly_Q said:

Waters started dressing up as a Nazi-like character as satire, no doubt about that... but his personal pronouncements suggest he's slowly turning into that character (even if he thinks he isn't). Warren Mitchell never turned into Alf Garnett.

And I agree, it's not new. But just because he's been doing it for 40 years doesn't mean he has to do it in exactly the same way now as he did then. They could just re-design the costumes, for example, to make the same general point without looking so specifically like the well-known image of Hitler's Nazis. That image, in itself, has become so offensive that perhaps it defeats the very point he's trying to make - whatever the fuck that point now is.

Deft use of the magic word 'just' there. Could you just jump off the edge of that cliff, please?

One problem about kowtowing to the easily offended is that by ignoring the context in which alarming images, language and moments on our collective past are used, we give the green light to excising them from our consciousness. If we ban artists from using Nazi paraphernalia onstage for valid artistic reasons, does that mean we also ban movies about WWII depicting Nazis and Nazi imagery? We're in the territory of 'cancel culture' here, aren't we? Cleaning up history so that it more closely conforms with what should have happened rather than what actually did.

Context matters. If anyone has read Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn, they'll know of a character in it called 'N-Word Jim,' a runaway slave who accompanies Huck on his travels. They will also no doubt understand that publishing the novel today does not in the least signify a desire to re-introduce or condone the term as a cool way of referring to African Americans. It's language that was used in America at the time the story was written. The character is, in addition, intelligent, good-natured and thoughtful; nevertheless, moves have been to doctor or even ban the book for fear of 'offending' a hyper-sensitive type that runs screaming from the room at the merest mention of the word, regardless of context (all the while, ignoring the context of African Americans using it affectionately among themselves. Hmmm ...).

A more lighthearted example recently was the American kids who went on a school tour of Italy and saw Michelangelo's sculpture of David (who killed Goliath). One 'offended' parent retorted that the sculpture was 'pornographic,' an abomination made clay, and showing it to children was like dangling images of John Holmes in complete flagrante before their tender, innocent eyes. I mean, like, hey, what's the difference? They're both displaying their wedding tackle to all and sundry, right? The parent moved to have the headteacher responsible removed from her position!

Context matters.

Funkfingers · May 2023

In the song, Commando, Joey Ramone sang about eating Kosher salamis. Is this a transgression against his religion or humour?

Philly_Q · May 2023

@Timcito I agree that context matters, but Huckleberry Finn and Michelangelo's David are historical artefacts, they can't be changed or "updated" for modern times, certainly not by the original creators (nor should they be, but that's just my opinion). But a performance of The Wall doesn't need to be rooted in 1979 - it's a live show, it's happening now and it can be adapted to today's world.

As I was growing up World War II was still very much part of the national consciousness. Comics aimed at 8 or 9 year-olds featured plucky British heroes taking on jackbooted Nazis. I thought it was cool that Lemmy sported Iron Crosses and bits of SS uniforms. I thought confederate flags were cool too. They were images I saw all the time, trivialised in a way and stripped of their original context - and they are, in themselves, cool images.

But now attitudes have changed (again). People don't look at an Iron Cross and see a cool image, they think about what it represents (as people might have done in the post-war years). They don't necessarily consider the context. I'm not saying that's right or wrong but I can see their point.

LastMantra · May 2023

Is the wall not passed it's sell by date now anyway?

roberty · May 2023

I don't think Germany needs reminding tbf

scrumhalf · May 2023

The entire world needs reminding of this and other atrocities.

There are people who are unaware of what has happened in the past and, more worryingly, those who deny that they ever happened. These people cannot be allowed to win.

Sporky · May 2023

scrumhalf said:

The entire world needs reminding of this and other atrocities.

The Wall wasn't that bad.

Dull, pompous, over long, and (thankfully) largely forgettable, but I wouldn't call it an atrocity.

Dominic · May 2023

Funkfingers said:

In the song, Commando, Joey Ramone sang about eating Kosher salamis. Is this a transgression against his religion or humour?

Neither actually , there is such a thing as Kosher Salami ....it's called Voorsht ( yiddish name hence similarity to German )
It's very popular in Kosher homes . It's made with Turkey and Beef .....a little bit similar to the Halal salami called Sucuk .
Obvs neither contain Pork.

Smellyfingers · May 2023

It’s not like he’s Tony Blair or the archbishop, the guy’s a rock star ffs, he’s allowed to be a cock.

I wonder if his music and recorded live footage would have got so many clicks/ streams from people who hate him,without this controversy.

Dominic · May 2023

fretmeister said:

He put the Star of David on the Pig.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

The Star of David on a Pig inches away from a Zeig Heil image ..........?
I wonder if he would have been so bold with an image of the Islamic Prophet painted on a pig alongside Crusaders ........I doubt it
that kind of thing didn't go so well for Hebdo people or Salman Rushdie

Teyeplayer · May 2023

Dominic said:

fretmeister said:

He put the Star of David on the Pig.

He knew exactly what he was doing.

The Star of David on a Pig inches away from a Zeig Heil image ..........?
I wonder if he would have been so bold with an image of the Islamic Prophet painted on a pig alongside Crusaders ........I doubt it
that kind of thing didn't go so well for Hebdo people or Salman Rushdie

Agreed. As much as there is an artistic point being made, in this day and age certain symbols don’t fit in certain contexts -artistic satirical intent or not. It’s no good people complaining that a younger generation are easily offended; it’s a sign that the times have changed and sometimes as edgy as an artist thinks they are being, it’s time to catch up with the times.

roberty · May 2023

scrumhalf said:

The entire world needs reminding of this and other atrocities.

There are people who are unaware of what has happened in the past and, more worryingly, those who deny that they ever happened. These people cannot be allowed to win.

Yes but not by pop stars dressing up like Nazis for entertainment. Imho

steven70 · May 2023

As far as I can tell, he's been doing this stuff a long time without anyone worrying too much about it.
I wonder if the current outrage is a result of his position on the Ukraine conflict? Surely not.

hollywoodrox · May 2023

As far as I can see he wasn’t wearing any nazi regalia just some similar symbolic stuff with the hammer symbol on them to portray a fascist totalitarian dictatorship .

Sassafras · May 2023

Maybe it's all about Trump's Wall and we're all unfairly maligning the twat.

goldtop · May 2023

roberty said:

scrumhalf said:

The entire world needs reminding of this and other atrocities.

There are people who are unaware of what has happened in the past and, more worryingly, those who deny that they ever happened. These people cannot be allowed to win.

Yes but not by pop stars dressing up like Nazis for entertainment. Imho

He wasn't dressed as a Nazi. If you can show me a photo where he is dressed as a Nazi, I'd be very interested. I am not holding my breath, because - like the Israeli Foreign Ministry - there is no such evidence.

Once again, there are bad faith actors - and the gullible that they can provoke - pretending that he's has done something different to what he has done. Same with Corbyn, same with so many others who dare to question Israeli state actions.

bertie · May 2023

goldtop said:
He wasn't dressed as a Nazi.

how would you describe then ?

bearing in the "headline" from the OP was "nazi style"

it wasnt fucking laura ashley that's for sure

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