John Cruz Custom Guitars

Loobs · March 2022

F*ck giving that bigot a single penny!

fretmeister · March 2022

Philly_Q said:

It's interesting the number of times this forum manages to reduce all Fender and similar guitars to "just a neck bolted to a body" and therefore worth a few hundred quid at most.

It's as if all those other things like pickups, electronics, hardware, paint, fretwork and the actual construction of that neck and body are completely irrelevant.

The R&D on strats ended decades ago. And most people wanting a custom shop just want something that looks like it was built in the 1960s.

Nobody has forgotten about the pickups and paint etc. But there's a massive chasm between even a pro level £1200 strat and £8000. Diminishing returns are mental.

People can spend their money on whatever they want, but an £8000 guitar is not 4 times better than a £2000 one, and it wouldn't surprise me if half the buyers couldn't tell the difference in a proper blind test.

Loobs · March 2022

Agree with most on this thread but if you buy a really top-end bolt-on guitar you can usually see it in the attention detail and materials/hardware used. Not £8k, though. That's madness for a Fender derivative-instrument.

grappagreen · March 2022

Philly_Q said:

It's interesting the number of times this forum manages to reduce all Fender and similar guitars to "just a neck bolted to a body" and therefore worth a few hundred quid at most.

It's as if all those other things like pickups, electronics, hardware, paint, fretwork and the actual construction of that neck and body are completely irrelevant.

I don't think I'm actually saying that at all. They all matter as does the fine tuning and setup by the builder. I'm all for paying good money for good stuff. What I personally am not into is paying an absolute and unjustifiable fortune for it

Other opinions are equally valid.

Regards,

Si

Boromedic · March 2022

TeleMaster said:

Boromedic said:

In fairness Suhr and Anderson are an improvement on the originals, a standard Suhr or Anderson is very much a better guitar out of the box than a standard Fender as it's had more care and attention afforded to it during manufacture. I would also argue that they use better materials in the build than a standard Fender.

Objectively you could argue that but as soon as you put two guitars in your hands you may well like the Fender more. It’s not like they’re cheap, or shabby instruments and Custom Shop guitars are excellent instruments with particular neck carves that you just might like more.

I said standard Fender, not custom shop.... I have a CS Strat, it's tactile and very lovely, it's very high quality. The Anderson I have and the Suhr I've played are head and shoulders above any Standard Fender out of the box. You could make a better guitar out of the standard but you can roll a turd in glitter it's still a turd. The little refinements that TA and Suhr make go a long way.

idiotwindow · March 2022

matt_sefton said:

Philly_Q said:

t's as if all those other things like pickups, electronics, hardware, paint, fretwork and the actual construction of that neck and body are completely irrelevant.

Oh come on! The actual cost of the parts of that guitar will be less than $500 to John Cruz. ...
You’re paying $1000 for the guitar and $7000 for the name on the headstock.

I think that is a bit of a gross exaggeration. Materials aside, there are plenty of other overheads to consider before you even get to the question of how much Cruz values his time? I've no idea, he might consider $500 per hour a reasonable return but, whatever the number, that is surely his call?

danishbacon · March 2022

I’d be surprised if he’s netting $50k on 25 instruments if he’s not selling direct to consumer.

Loobs · March 2022

I mean, let the man do what he wants. If there are people dumb enough to pay that much for a Strat copy, so be it.

Musicman20 · March 2022

Loobs said:

F*ck giving that bigot a single penny!

Aye that seems to have been forgotten

terada · March 2022

These will be going for more than 8k in a few years.

skippy76 · March 2022

Selling out the very first batch could be down to "investors" getting in on the ground floor.

Be interesting to see if they keep selling over time.

Not a fan of the blokes views for what its worth

TeleMaster · March 2022

Boromedic said:

TeleMaster said:

Boromedic said:

In fairness Suhr and Anderson are an improvement on the originals, a standard Suhr or Anderson is very much a better guitar out of the box than a standard Fender as it's had more care and attention afforded to it during manufacture. I would also argue that they use better materials in the build than a standard Fender.

Objectively you could argue that but as soon as you put two guitars in your hands you may well like the Fender more. It’s not like they’re cheap, or shabby instruments and Custom Shop guitars are excellent instruments with particular neck carves that you just might like more.

I said standard Fender, not custom shop.... I have a CS Strat, it's tactile and very lovely, it's very high quality. The Anderson I have and the Suhr I've played are head and shoulders above any Standard Fender out of the box. You could make a better guitar out of the standard but you can roll a turd in glitter it's still a turd. The little refinements that TA and Suhr make go a long way.

Yes I know you said Fender. I also said Fender, as in any Fender. I was then talking about the excellence of the Custom Shop in general as an aside, because you would have to compare the top of the line Suhr to a top of the line Fender.

The same logic applies to Mexican standards or Elites or Classic Vibes. Just because something is better on paper, it doesn’t mean it’s better when you play it.

crunchman · March 2022

matt_sefton said:

Philly_Q said:

It's interesting the number of times this forum manages to reduce all Fender and similar guitars to "just a neck bolted to a body" and therefore worth a few hundred quid at most.

It's as if all those other things like pickups, electronics, hardware, paint, fretwork and the actual construction of that neck and body are completely irrelevant.

Oh come on! The actual cost of the parts of that guitar will be less than $500 to John Cruz. Construction of a strat body and neck is extremely simple for anyone with a modicum of woodworking skills. The fretwork and setup is a doddle for any experienced tech. The relicing isn’t rocket science either. You’re paying $1000 for the guitar and $7000 for the name on the headstock.
He’s hardly the first to do this and won’t be the last but as long as people want to spend money on guitars like that good luck to him.

He might be able to get some kind of trade discount, but I don't think he will be buying all the parts for $500. At that level, he will be using boutique pickups and hardware. I haven't checked exactly what hardware is on his guitars, but a boutique set of Strat pickups like Lindy Fralin is around $300 retail. Even if he can get a discount, he's paying $200 just for the pickups.

Other hardware like tuners, bridge, pots, knobs, jackplates, frets, nut blanks etc all cost money.

Then you have to think about wood. Top quality swamp ash body wood is £90 at David Dyke for a two piece body. With a good quality maple neck blank, plus a fingerboard, you would be well over £100. Again, he might get a discount compared with what we can get, but he's still probably looking at $100 dollars for the wood.

Then he has to buy all the stuff for finishing. Lacquer, plus consumables like sandpaper.

There is significantly more than $500 dollars worth of parts in there.

Then you add workshop overheads - cost of renting and maintaining a workshop, cost of buying and maintaining tools, heating, lighting, spray booth etc.

Then other business overheads like a website and marketing, public liability insurance.

There is a lot of work that goes into making a guitar. I made a guitar at Crimson - actually I ran out of time, and ended up doing the wiring and some hardware at home. I put over 60 hours into that - and it only had a flash coat finish. You would need to add quite a lot more time to that for a gloss finish (even before relicing it). Someone who knows what he's doing could do it a lot quicker than me, but there is still a lot of labour involved. There is no way he can make that guitar for $1000 dollars unless his hourly rate is in single figures.

A Feline Tabby is £2700 on their website. That's probably a fair cost for a high quality small shop bolt on. It allows the maker to actually feed himself. That's still an awful lot less than $8000 so there is some truth to your point about paying for the name with John Cruz, but you did exaggerate to make your point.

victorludorum · March 2022

Wasn't there a thread on these a couple of years ago where they were being blown out by some retailer for 800 USD or something? Maybe I'm thinking of John Page, but either way i remember the headstock being the problem for some on here, me included.

Philly_Q · March 2022

victorludorum said:

Wasn't there a thread on these a couple of years ago where they were being blown out by some retailer for 800 USD or something?

That was probably the John Page ones, Coda had a couple. They were made in Japan(?) and not massively expensive... not as cheap as $800 but closer to that than $8,000.

(Edit: I see you updated as I was posting!

)

joeW · March 2022

Mine is arriving next week. Will post a review and compare to my Ian Elson - wonder if Cruz employs rodents to gnaw his nut slots…

terada · March 2022

joeW said:

compare to my Ian Elson

The perfect example of what a hand made £800 bolt on actually looks like.

RaymondLin · March 2022

Take away the bigotted tweet that got him sacked, and take the guitar on its own merit.

It's just going to be on par on when he used to work for Fender, so essentially this would be a Fender Masterbuilt price guitar and you can get them for about £6k. So objectively, it makes this overpriced. Unless his name is larger and worth more than Fender itself.

Which to me is not as when you consider the name, I have to take into account of the bigotary.

bertie · March 2022

Lewy said:

. $8000 probably corresponds quite directly with Masterbuilt CS

is it ? crikey, I was thinking £5k absolute tops

matt_sefton · March 2022

crunchman said:

matt_sefton said:

Philly_Q said:

It's interesting the number of times this forum manages to reduce all Fender and similar guitars to "just a neck bolted to a body" and therefore worth a few hundred quid at most.

It's as if all those other things like pickups, electronics, hardware, paint, fretwork and the actual construction of that neck and body are completely irrelevant.

Oh come on! The actual cost of the parts of that guitar will be less than $500 to John Cruz. Construction of a strat body and neck is extremely simple for anyone with a modicum of woodworking skills. The fretwork and setup is a doddle for any experienced tech. The relicing isn’t rocket science either. You’re paying $1000 for the guitar and $7000 for the name on the headstock.
He’s hardly the first to do this and won’t be the last but as long as people want to spend money on guitars like that good luck to him.

He might be able to get some kind of trade discount, but I don't think he will be buying all the parts for $500. At that level, he will be using boutique pickups and hardware. I haven't checked exactly what hardware is on his guitars, but a boutique set of Strat pickups like Lindy Fralin is around $300 retail. Even if he can get a discount, he's paying $200 just for the pickups.

Other hardware like tuners, bridge, pots, knobs, jackplates, frets, nut blanks etc all cost money.

Then you have to think about wood. Top quality swamp ash body wood is £90 at David Dyke for a two piece body. With a good quality maple neck blank, plus a fingerboard, you would be well over £100. Again, he might get a discount compared with what we can get, but he's still probably looking at $100 dollars for the wood.

Then he has to buy all the stuff for finishing. Lacquer, plus consumables like sandpaper.

There is significantly more than $500 dollars worth of parts in there.

Then you add workshop overheads - cost of renting and maintaining a workshop, cost of buying and maintaining tools, heating, lighting, spray booth etc.

Then other business overheads like a website and marketing, public liability insurance.

There is a lot of work that goes into making a guitar. I made a guitar at Crimson - actually I ran out of time, and ended up doing the wiring and some hardware at home. I put over 60 hours into that - and it only had a flash coat finish. You would need to add quite a lot more time to that for a gloss finish (even before relicing it). Someone who knows what he's doing could do it a lot quicker than me, but there is still a lot of labour involved. There is no way he can make that guitar for $1000 dollars unless his hourly rate is in single figures.

A Feline Tabby is £2700 on their website. That's probably a fair cost for a high quality small shop bolt on. It allows the maker to actually feed himself. That's still an awful lot less than $8000 so there is some truth to your point about paying for the name with John Cruz, but you did exaggerate to make your point.

It’s the internet. Exaggerating to make a point shouldn’t shock you! You don’t need to lecture me on the cost of building guitars or running a business. I’ve been building guitars since 1980, went to the London College of Furniture to study it and run my own business outside of that. You’re being incredibly naïve about how much something costs to make and the associated running costs and exactly buying in to the hype that boutique guitars like this seem to generate and thrive on. John Cruz is perfectly entitled to charge whatever he likes for his partscasters but please don’t pretend they’re very much more than that. Respectfully :-)

Dan_Halen · March 2022

matt_sefton said:

crunchman said:

matt_sefton said:

Philly_Q said:

It's interesting the number of times this forum manages to reduce all Fender and similar guitars to "just a neck bolted to a body" and therefore worth a few hundred quid at most.

It's as if all those other things like pickups, electronics, hardware, paint, fretwork and the actual construction of that neck and body are completely irrelevant.

Oh come on! The actual cost of the parts of that guitar will be less than $500 to John Cruz. Construction of a strat body and neck is extremely simple for anyone with a modicum of woodworking skills. The fretwork and setup is a doddle for any experienced tech. The relicing isn’t rocket science either. You’re paying $1000 for the guitar and $7000 for the name on the headstock.
He’s hardly the first to do this and won’t be the last but as long as people want to spend money on guitars like that good luck to him.

He might be able to get some kind of trade discount, but I don't think he will be buying all the parts for $500. At that level, he will be using boutique pickups and hardware. I haven't checked exactly what hardware is on his guitars, but a boutique set of Strat pickups like Lindy Fralin is around $300 retail. Even if he can get a discount, he's paying $200 just for the pickups.

Other hardware like tuners, bridge, pots, knobs, jackplates, frets, nut blanks etc all cost money.

Then you have to think about wood. Top quality swamp ash body wood is £90 at David Dyke for a two piece body. With a good quality maple neck blank, plus a fingerboard, you would be well over £100. Again, he might get a discount compared with what we can get, but he's still probably looking at $100 dollars for the wood.

Then he has to buy all the stuff for finishing. Lacquer, plus consumables like sandpaper.

There is significantly more than $500 dollars worth of parts in there.

Then you add workshop overheads - cost of renting and maintaining a workshop, cost of buying and maintaining tools, heating, lighting, spray booth etc.

Then other business overheads like a website and marketing, public liability insurance.

There is a lot of work that goes into making a guitar. I made a guitar at Crimson - actually I ran out of time, and ended up doing the wiring and some hardware at home. I put over 60 hours into that - and it only had a flash coat finish. You would need to add quite a lot more time to that for a gloss finish (even before relicing it). Someone who knows what he's doing could do it a lot quicker than me, but there is still a lot of labour involved. There is no way he can make that guitar for $1000 dollars unless his hourly rate is in single figures.

A Feline Tabby is £2700 on their website. That's probably a fair cost for a high quality small shop bolt on. It allows the maker to actually feed himself. That's still an awful lot less than $8000 so there is some truth to your point about paying for the name with John Cruz, but you did exaggerate to make your point.

It’s the internet. Exaggerating to make a point shouldn’t shock you! You don’t need to lecture me on the cost of building guitars or running a business. I’ve been building guitars since 1980, went to the London College of Furniture to study it and run my own business outside of that. You’re being incredibly naïve about how much something costs to make and the associated running costs and exactly buying in to the hype that boutique guitars like this seem to generate and thrive on. John Cruz is perfectly entitled to charge whatever he likes for his partscasters but please don’t pretend they’re very much more than that. Respectfully :-)

Seems a bit agressive. He's quite obviously trying to illustrate a point and suggest there's maybe a bit more to it that how much a bit of wood and someone's time costs. Hardly saying 'no, they're definitely worth every penny'.

Anyway, literally no-one thinks his guitars are 8k worth of guitar but if that's what he charges it's what he charges. It's about the ballpark for a Fender Masterbuilt so hardly a suprise. Given, by all accounts he's sold them all, I'd say he might know what he's doing.

You run your own business - do you charge simply the sum of parts/labour for anything you produce?

Whitecat · September 2023

http://www.proguitar.de/news.html Ooooops

guitars4you · September 2023

Whitecat said:

http://www.proguitar.de/news.html Ooooops

Oooooops indeed

StuartMac290 · September 2023

Whitecat said:

http://www.proguitar.de/news.html Ooooops

Ach, that's grim. What an arsehole.

StefB · September 2023

Whitecat said:

http://www.proguitar.de/news.html Ooooops

If anyone still fancies a punt after that glowing endorsement, GuitarGuitar still have a few in stock, heavily discounted to now just a couple of grand more than Fender Custom Shop equivalents - https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/search/?Query=john+cruz

Whitecat · September 2023

StefB said:

Whitecat said:

http://www.proguitar.de/news.html Ooooops

If anyone still fancies a punt after that glowing endorsement, GuitarGuitar still have a few in stock, heavily discounted to now just a couple of grand more than Fender Custom Shop equivalents - https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/search/?Query=john+cruz

With the German shop above mentioning "many with quality control issues" I think I'll pass for now...

Musicman20 · September 2023

What an a**eh**le. I feel for these people putting faith in his product.

guitars4you · September 2023

Whitecat said:

StefB said:

Whitecat said:

http://www.proguitar.de/news.html Ooooops

If anyone still fancies a punt after that glowing endorsement, GuitarGuitar still have a few in stock, heavily discounted to now just a couple of grand more than Fender Custom Shop equivalents - https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/search/?Query=john+cruz

With the German shop above mentioning "many with quality control issues" I think I'll pass for now...

edit required

With the German shop above mentioning "many with quality control issues" I think I'll pass

elstoof · September 2023

You've got to wonder how he became a “masterbuilder” in the first place

nero1701 · September 2023

elstoof said:

You've got to wonder how he became a “masterbuilder” in the first place

It's likely easier to excel when there's a large organisation behind you. Once you branch out, you soon realise there's a lot of shit behind the scenes you never knew existed.

It's almost the DeLorean of the guitar world.

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