The Fractal Thread

guitarfishbay · November 2017

To be honest if you want cut you're best off just using a single mic. Adding in a second mic will generally fill things out, which usually sounds great but if you want maximum cut and definition you'll probably get on better with a single mic IR.

peteri · November 2017

I'm gravitating towards the mixes in the OH series too, although in my new 'bestest rig' ever - using the mixes from the factory works really well too, it was a good tip to use the higher numbers - there's definitely something in that.

Biggest benefit I've found, is don't play too much with IRs. Get one early on when you're writing a patch and stick with it. Switching part way through and you might as well start again.

Maybe at the end if there's a resonance or something you don't like - but you can disappear up somewhere

guitarfishbay · November 2017

My method is pretty much to start with fairly typical settings for the amp in question (some amps it might be pretty much flat EQ, some such as Mesa Marks need a different approach) and then flick through a bunch of IRs until one sounds pretty close to what I'm going for. That's when I'll go back and mess with the amp EQ. My goal is to get as much of the heavy lifting done by the IR as possible, then leave it alone and do the rest with the amp block/drives etc

FarleyUK · November 2017

Anyone able to get a Slash 'Use Your Illusion / Spaghetti Incident' era tone...? I've been trying but it's bloody elusive!

peteri · November 2017

Ooh that's a nice challenge, annoying I'm away from this evening for the weekend!

Given the Jubilee/AFD models - it sounds easy, but suspect the IR is key

firepaulmusic · December 2017

Spent a while tonight making my 'do it all patch'. Fender Twin for clean and Silver Jubilee for dirty. A different cab for each and programmed to change with Scene 1/2. Ts808 and Zen Drive X/Y. Phase 90, chorus and auto wah. Two delays X/Y and volume block at the end, job done.

Jonathanthomas83 · December 2017

Settled on Celestion IRs, for now. Seem to have gone simple and settled on an SM57 in most cases, just fuller sounding when using a single mic instead of mixing.

Incidentally, saw this video and decided to peak a PEQ block at 400hz and 2k based on his advice, must say, being a newbie to EQ stuff and not understanding things really, I think it’s sweetened things up and really helps it cut through https://youtu.be/YhuryXGMt1o

Any other tips you guys like to use?

FarleyUK · December 2017

peteri said:

Ooh that's a nice challenge, annoying I'm away from this evening for the weekend!
Given the Jubilee/AFD models - it sounds easy, but suspect the IR is key

I'll be b*ggered if I can get a sound like it.....!!

guitarfishbay · December 2017

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Settled on Celestion IRs, for now. Seem to have gone simple and settled on an SM57 in most cases, just fuller sounding when using a single mic instead of mixing.

Incidentally, saw this video and decided to peak a PEQ block at 400hz and 2k based on his advice, must say, being a newbie to EQ stuff and not understanding things really, I think it’s sweetened things up and really helps it cut through https://youtu.be/YhuryXGMt1o

Any other tips you guys like to use?

The Celestion IRs are good, glad you found something that is working for you.

Tips is a bit of a broad subject.

The thing with EQing is you can't really give specific tips for cuts and boosts as it always depends on the source sound, and intended goal.

Personally I almost always approach post EQ with a subtractive first mindset - what are the things I don't like about this sound, and if I reduce those things does it improve the sound. Or if you have two competing instruments at the same frequency, can I get it to sit better by reducing that frequency on the instrument I want to be less dominant.

It takes a while to train your ear to hear what you should be doing with EQ, I'm not sure of where to point you in terms of YouTube channels to teach basics because I didn't learn it that way myself (I just bugged people who were better than me to show me stuff after I'd been unsuccessfully noodling for years).

peteri · December 2017

Recommended preset package - AustinBuddy Naked Amps pack.

I was cynical but wanted to treat myself and wow!

uses all factory IRs and really gives some models a boost. Now have a lovely preset with a Clean Dumble and Marshall Jubilee - both amps I’ve never dialled in before.

Jonathanthomas83 · December 2017

guitarfishbay said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Settled on Celestion IRs, for now. Seem to have gone simple and settled on an SM57 in most cases, just fuller sounding when using a single mic instead of mixing.

Incidentally, saw this video and decided to peak a PEQ block at 400hz and 2k based on his advice, must say, being a newbie to EQ stuff and not understanding things really, I think it’s sweetened things up and really helps it cut through https://youtu.be/YhuryXGMt1o

Any other tips you guys like to use?

The Celestion IRs are good, glad you found something that is working for you.

Tips is a bit of a broad subject.

The thing with EQing is you can't really give specific tips for cuts and boosts as it always depends on the source sound, and intended goal.

Personally I almost always approach post EQ with a subtractive first mindset - what are the things I don't like about this sound, and if I reduce those things does it improve the sound. Or if you have two competing instruments at the same frequency, can I get it to sit better by reducing that frequency on the instrument I want to be less dominant.

It takes a while to train your ear to hear what you should be doing with EQ, I'm not sure of where to point you in terms of YouTube channels to teach basics because I didn't learn it that way myself (I just bugged people who were better than me to show me stuff after I'd been unsuccessfully noodling for years).

Thanks man, I appreciate that. Maybe something that could be easier to give tips on...how do you match levels between clean and distortion without it sounding weird or thin when switching to the other?

@clarky any thoughts on all the above, mate?

Clarky · December 2017

Jonathanthomas83 said:

guitarfishbay said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Settled on Celestion IRs, for now. Seem to have gone simple and settled on an SM57 in most cases, just fuller sounding when using a single mic instead of mixing.

Incidentally, saw this video and decided to peak a PEQ block at 400hz and 2k based on his advice, must say, being a newbie to EQ stuff and not understanding things really, I think it’s sweetened things up and really helps it cut through https://youtu.be/YhuryXGMt1o

Any other tips you guys like to use?

The Celestion IRs are good, glad you found something that is working for you.

Tips is a bit of a broad subject.

The thing with EQing is you can't really give specific tips for cuts and boosts as it always depends on the source sound, and intended goal.

Personally I almost always approach post EQ with a subtractive first mindset - what are the things I don't like about this sound, and if I reduce those things does it improve the sound. Or if you have two competing instruments at the same frequency, can I get it to sit better by reducing that frequency on the instrument I want to be less dominant.

It takes a while to train your ear to hear what you should be doing with EQ, I'm not sure of where to point you in terms of YouTube channels to teach basics because I didn't learn it that way myself (I just bugged people who were better than me to show me stuff after I'd been unsuccessfully noodling for years).

Thanks man, I appreciate that. Maybe something that could be easier to give tips on...how do you match levels between clean and distortion without it sounding weird or thin when switching to the other?

@clarky any thoughts on all the above, mate?

The fella in the vid is talking about a technique used by mix engineers / producers called complimentary EQ.
essentially.. each instrument in the mix will have a pair of small frequency bands [one high and one low] where they are most tonally distinctive.. only a single instrument and strongly occupy a given band.. so the other instruments get a small cut to let that through..
easy example...
kick drum is nice where the low freq = 90Hz and the high freq = 2.4k [the 'boom' and the 'click]
looking at the low part... the bass guitar lives in that 90Hz area too..
during mixing either the kick will vanish or be too strong.. but never quite right because the bass guitar will [on a certain played note] cancel it out..
so... using a parametric EQ, you cut a narrow [Q=2.5 -ish] notch at 90Hz by around 6dB [the actual value is judged by ear] on the bass guitar track..
the notch is narrow enough such that the bass guitar don't seem to miss anything..
and the kick drum has a little 'hole' in the frequency spectrum to pop though..
now you can hear kick and bass guitar clearly..

EQ in general...
there are two types:
1 - corrective: this is to mend things [eliminate a boomy low end or shrill high end.. or 'boxy' sounding mids]
this tends to be 'subtractive'.. you remove want is causing the issue by finding the offending frequency and knocking off it's level [with a parametric or graphic EQ] until it stops offending..
2 - sweetening: this is a good name for it.. sweeten things up.. to enhance something [add power in the deep lows or make something sound more energetic / exciting in the highs]..
this usually means boosting something...

guitars and EQ
note: this is my personal experience.....
in the Axe-FX I apply EQ in 2 places [usually cos there is a 3rd place]
1: corrective in the amp block:
- I choose the amp that offers the tone / feel I'm looking for
- I choose a cab / mic combination that brings out what I'm looking for in that amp [even if the EQ is not quite right]..
example..
Diesel Herbert channel 3, thick full bodied hi-gain but can be a little dark sounding
Marshall 4x12 1960b / SM57.. the SM57 brings out the highs and kills the boomy low end [maybe a little too much but that's ok].. we are not listening for EQ, we are listening to the tonal characteristics.. the 'grain' of the distortion for example..
so.. my big fat Herbert is now a little boxy, missing deep lows, has nice cutting highs..
but the overall tone is in the right area..
in the amp's EQ page I'll fix the issues..
bass and low mids do not play nice together.. you have one or the other.. but never both..
low mids are in the 300Hz to 700Hz area [a generalisation]
I make a cut in the 500Hz band to kill the low mids..
this has 2 effects... it takes out the boxy tone and has an apparent effect of deepening the bass [without having to boost the bass]..
I'm happy with everything else so it is left alone [I'll continue building the preset / adding fx etc]

sweetening happens at the end of the FX chain to sweeten the tone overall [which will include any active FX]..

things to look for:
- add definition / energy to rock / hard rock guitar: boost the 2.5k to 3k area
- add definition / energy to metal guitar: boost 4.5k to 5k [because metal highs are far more aggressive]
try to avoid boosting the lows unless you really have to..
why? because the bass guitar lives there.. leave him space to coexist with you..
in isolation, your tone may be a little thinner than you'd like..
but in the mix and on stage you will be epic...

FarleyUK · December 2017

Clarky said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

guitarfishbay said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Settled on Celestion IRs, for now. Seem to have gone simple and settled on an SM57 in most cases, just fuller sounding when using a single mic instead of mixing.

Incidentally, saw this video and decided to peak a PEQ block at 400hz and 2k based on his advice, must say, being a newbie to EQ stuff and not understanding things really, I think it’s sweetened things up and really helps it cut through https://youtu.be/YhuryXGMt1o

Any other tips you guys like to use?

The Celestion IRs are good, glad you found something that is working for you.

Tips is a bit of a broad subject.

The thing with EQing is you can't really give specific tips for cuts and boosts as it always depends on the source sound, and intended goal.

Personally I almost always approach post EQ with a subtractive first mindset - what are the things I don't like about this sound, and if I reduce those things does it improve the sound. Or if you have two competing instruments at the same frequency, can I get it to sit better by reducing that frequency on the instrument I want to be less dominant.

It takes a while to train your ear to hear what you should be doing with EQ, I'm not sure of where to point you in terms of YouTube channels to teach basics because I didn't learn it that way myself (I just bugged people who were better than me to show me stuff after I'd been unsuccessfully noodling for years).

Thanks man, I appreciate that. Maybe something that could be easier to give tips on...how do you match levels between clean and distortion without it sounding weird or thin when switching to the other?

@clarky any thoughts on all the above, mate?

The fella in the vid is talking about a technique used by mix engineers / producers called complimentary EQ.
essentially.. each instrument in the mix will have a pair of small frequency bands [one high and one low] where they are most tonally distinctive.. only a single instrument and strongly occupy a given band.. so the other instruments get a small cut to let that through..
easy example...
kick drum is nice where the low freq = 90Hz and the high freq = 2.4k [the 'boom' and the 'click]
looking at the low part... the bass guitar lives in that 90Hz area too..
during mixing either the kick will vanish or be too strong.. but never quite right because the bass guitar will [on a certain played note] cancel it out..
so... using a parametric EQ, you cut a narrow [Q=2.5 -ish] notch at 90Hz by around 6dB [the actual value is judged by ear] on the bass guitar track..
the notch is narrow enough such that the bass guitar don't seem to miss anything..
and the kick drum has a little 'hole' in the frequency spectrum to pop though..
now you can hear kick and bass guitar clearly..

EQ in general...
there are two types:
1 - corrective: this is to mend things [eliminate a boomy low end or shrill high end.. or 'boxy' sounding mids]
this tends to be 'subtractive'.. you remove want is causing the issue by finding the offending frequency and knocking off it's level [with a parametric or graphic EQ] until it stops offending..
2 - sweetening: this is a good name for it.. sweeten things up.. to enhance something [add power in the deep lows or make something sound more energetic / exciting in the highs]..
this usually means boosting something...

guitars and EQ
note: this is my personal experience.....
in the Axe-FX I apply EQ in 2 places [usually cos there is a 3rd place]
1: corrective in the amp block:
- I choose the amp that offers the tone / feel I'm looking for
- I choose a cab / mic combination that brings out what I'm looking for in that amp [even if the EQ is not quite right]..
example..
Diesel Herbert channel 3, thick full bodied hi-gain but can be a little dark sounding
Marshall 4x12 1960b / SM57.. the SM57 brings out the highs and kills the boomy low end [maybe a little too much but that's ok].. we are not listening for EQ, we are listening to the tonal characteristics.. the 'grain' of the distortion for example..
so.. my big fat Herbert is now a little boxy, missing deep lows, has nice cutting highs..
but the overall tone is in the right area..
in the amp's EQ page I'll fix the issues..
bass and low mids do not play nice together.. you have one or the other.. but never both..
low mids are in the 300Hz to 700Hz area [a generalisation]
I make a cut in the 500Hz band to kill the low mids..
this has 2 effects... it takes out the boxy tone and has an apparent effect of deepening the bass [without having to boost the bass]..
I'm happy with everything else so it is left alone [I'll continue building the preset / adding fx etc]

sweetening happens at the end of the FX chain to sweeten the tone overall [which will include any active FX]..

things to look for:
- add definition / energy to rock / hard rock guitar: boost the 2.5k to 3k area
- add definition / energy to metal guitar: boost 4.5k to 5k [because metal highs are far more aggressive]
try to avoid boosting the lows unless you really have to..
why? because the bass guitar lives there.. leave him space to coexist with you..
in isolation, your tone may be a little thinner than you'd like..
but in the mix and on stage you will be epic...

Very very informative - a well deserved wis!

FYI, I tend to boost 800Hz for solos by a few dBs, as that helps cut through as well - but only in the band with the other guitarist. When I'm with my other band - and hence the only guitarist - I tend to boost around 1600Hz (I think) by a dB or 2.

FarleyUK · December 2017

I keep flip-flopping between a 'standard' signal path in the AX8 and a pseudo-wet/dry/wet one..... I can't decide which I prefer with the dual DXR10s I use.

To my ears, the wDw setup seems to have a lot more girth and definition to it, but it's slightly higher CPU usage. I'm also aware that I might be losing out on some 'wet' effect seperation, purely as I only have dual speakers, and not a center 'dry' speaker.

It's basically split after the cab block, with path 1 going direct to out (center balance), and path 2 going into 100% mix delay and reverb (in parallel), then the stereo enhancer block and out.

Anyone tried this approach? Any takeaways from it?

Clarky · December 2017

FarleyUK said:
Very very informative - a well deserved wis!

FYI, I tend to boost 800Hz for solos by a few dBs, as that helps cut through as well - but only in the band with the other guitarist. When I'm with my other band - and hence the only guitarist - I tend to boost around 1600Hz (I think) by a dB or 2.

remember I mentioned having the sweetening EQ at the very end of the fx chain [a GEQ block]...
in my presets I have 4 of them in parallel [bybass=mute]
only one is active in any one scene

GEQ1 is for my riffing scene [sweetening EQ / level = 0dB]
GEQ2 is for my soloing scene [contains a few cuts in the highest 3 bands / level = 3dB for a little boost]
GEQ3 and GEQ4 are for clean and 'misc' scenes [the misc scene varies from preset to preset.. like if I need to do something very softly for example]

if you're in a twin guitar band you may want your solo tone to step up a little more so the boost would be 5dB or 6dB
if this is the case, you may also want to make a few small cuts in the lowest 3 bands too to prevent the lows from booming..

remember.. turning up the level is like boosting all bands
so the reason I cut the upper bands in the soloing tone is to soften the highs that get overly strengthened by the 3dB level boost..

in one preset, GEQ4 is used for my "ballad solo" preset..
this don't need a boost because it's plenty loud enough given the context..
but I cut the top three bands anyhow to make the tone less aggressive / prettier..

Clarky · December 2017

FarleyUK said:

I keep flip-flopping between a 'standard' signal path in the AX8 and a pseudo-wet/dry/wet one..... I can't decide which I prefer with the dual DXR10s I use.

To my ears, the wDw setup seems to have a lot more girth and definition to it, but it's slightly higher CPU usage. I'm also aware that I might be losing out on some 'wet' effect seperation, purely as I only have dual speakers, and not a center 'dry' speaker.

It's basically split after the cab block, with path 1 going direct to out (center balance), and path 2 going into 100% mix delay and reverb (in parallel), then the stereo enhancer block and out.

Anyone tried this approach? Any takeaways from it?

I've not done wDw... my power amp only has 2 channels..
and I could never fit a 3rd 4x12 cab in my lil' car... lol..
I play in dual mono and stereo [depending on the scene]

@Handsome_Chris has though.. and he has a 3 channel power amp.

FarleyUK · December 2017

Clarky said:

FarleyUK said:

I keep flip-flopping between a 'standard' signal path in the AX8 and a pseudo-wet/dry/wet one..... I can't decide which I prefer with the dual DXR10s I use.

To my ears, the wDw setup seems to have a lot more girth and definition to it, but it's slightly higher CPU usage. I'm also aware that I might be losing out on some 'wet' effect seperation, purely as I only have dual speakers, and not a center 'dry' speaker.

It's basically split after the cab block, with path 1 going direct to out (center balance), and path 2 going into 100% mix delay and reverb (in parallel), then the stereo enhancer block and out.

Anyone tried this approach? Any takeaways from it?

I've not done wDw... my power amp only has 2 channels..
and I could never fit a 3rd 4x12 cab in my lil' car... lol..
I play in dual mono and stereo [depending on the scene]

@Handsome_Chris has though.. and he has a 3 channel power amp.

Yeah, it's not a 'true' wDw setup though - as I only have 2 DXR10 speakers I'm using, so create a 'false' dry center channel between them, with wet FX panned hard left and right.

Jonathanthomas83 · December 2017

@Clarky you're a legend, mate, thank you. I've read through your post thoroughly and will put it into practice this evening.

It's funny how he says to boost the mids a bit at 400hz but you say to cut them so they don't interfere with the bass, I'll take a look when I get home and will see the results.

My PEQ looks like a pair of tits on a line at 400hz and 2k with a big cleavage, so it'll be nice to make the whole thing a little less sexual. It doesn't take much to put wind in the sails these days.

FarleyUK · December 2017

Jonathanthomas83 said:

@Clarky you're a legend, mate, thank you. I've read through your post thoroughly and will put it into practice this evening.

It's funny how he says to boost the mids a bit at 400hz but you say to cut them so they don't interfere with the bass, I'll take a look when I get home and will see the results.

My PEQ looks like a pair of tits on a line at 400hz and 2k with a big cleavage, so it'll be nice to make the whole thing a little less sexual. It doesn't take much to put wind in the sails these days.

Go on, add a bigger peak at around 1.1k...... just make sure the tip is rounded.

Jonathanthomas83 · December 2017

Filth!

StuartMac290 · December 2017

Anyone want to swap their AX8 for my FX8? The artist I play with is looking to have a silent stage set-up

Jonathanthomas83 · December 2017

StuartMac290 said:

Anyone want to swap their AX8 for my FX8? The artist I play with is looking to have a silent stage set-up

That old chestnut! You just want an AX8.

Clarky · December 2017

Jonathanthomas83 said:

@Clarky you're a legend, mate, thank you. I've read through your post thoroughly and will put it into practice this evening.

It's funny how he says to boost the mids a bit at 400hz but you say to cut them so they don't interfere with the bass, I'll take a look when I get home and will see the results.

My PEQ looks like a pair of tits on a line at 400hz and 2k with a big cleavage, so it'll be nice to make the whole thing a little less sexual. It doesn't take much to put wind in the sails these days.

thing is... EQ is a difficult thing to talk / write about..
it's better when someone shows you what to look for..
in some vids I saw by proper mix engineers, they show you how they eq things..
you can hear the audio.. you can see them sweeping the freq range as they explain what they are listening for..
and even then you have to keep rewinding the vid a few times before you get it..
the difference between before and after can be pretty subtle

In the Axe I actually cut the 500 band by about -2db in the 5150 and -4dB in the Herbert
it's to decongest the low end and to provide an apparent deepening of the deep lows without having to resort to boosting them.. so it's not a huge cut..

at the end of the day, it's all about taste really...
that said.. if you made a huge scoop in the mids.. a wide one centred around 1k you may sound great in isolation, but you'll vanish in the mix.. which is why tits eq don't work that well

the one thing in that vid is....
the fella talked a lot, but did not demonstrate.. so you can't hear what he's talking about working / or not working
so when I saw his huge mid-scoop I was thinking "really?? that big and in that location?"

Clarky · December 2017

FarleyUK said:

Clarky said:

FarleyUK said:

I keep flip-flopping between a 'standard' signal path in the AX8 and a pseudo-wet/dry/wet one..... I can't decide which I prefer with the dual DXR10s I use.

To my ears, the wDw setup seems to have a lot more girth and definition to it, but it's slightly higher CPU usage. I'm also aware that I might be losing out on some 'wet' effect seperation, purely as I only have dual speakers, and not a center 'dry' speaker.

It's basically split after the cab block, with path 1 going direct to out (center balance), and path 2 going into 100% mix delay and reverb (in parallel), then the stereo enhancer block and out.

Anyone tried this approach? Any takeaways from it?

I've not done wDw... my power amp only has 2 channels..
and I could never fit a 3rd 4x12 cab in my lil' car... lol..
I play in dual mono and stereo [depending on the scene]

@Handsome_Chris has though.. and he has a 3 channel power amp.

Yeah, it's not a 'true' wDw setup though - as I only have 2 DXR10 speakers I'm using, so create a 'false' dry center channel between them, with wet FX panned hard left and right.

perfectly valid though... cos that's what would happen in both a live and studio mix

FarleyUK · December 2017

Clarky said:
so when I saw his huge mid-scoop I was thinking "really?? that big and in that location?"

Oi-oi!!

StuartMac290 · December 2017

Jonathanthomas83 said:

StuartMac290 said:

Anyone want to swap their AX8 for my FX8? The artist I play with is looking to have a silent stage set-up

That old chestnut! You just want an AX8.

Haha, actually no - I'm not a big fan of modeling at all, and would much rather keep my current set-up, but I understand the appeal.

guitarfishbay · December 2017

9.03 released for Axe FX

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe-fx-ii-quantum-rev-9-03-firmware-release.133232/

firepaulmusic · December 2017

Quick question regarding CPU limits. I am running a 'do it all' patch which is currently 72%. When I switch from Amp/Cab X to amp/Cab Y I get an error warning that the reverb has been disengaged to save CPU. Any way around this?

peteri · December 2017

Quick fix is - check what the IRs you're using. If you can go down from Ultra to normal res.

Also, I find that the factory IRs seem to take a little less CPU, don't know why, so maybe try that?

Is that really the only difference between the scenes?

firepaulmusic · December 2017

peteri said:

Quick fix is - check what the IRs you're using. If you can go down from Ultra to normal res.
Also, I find that the factory IRs seem to take a little less CPU, don't know why, so maybe try that?
Is that really the only difference between the scenes?

Thanks, I think so, as far as I can see...

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