New expanded London ULEZ zone

crunchman · September 2023

Extending the congestion charge zone would actually make more sense, as it would reduce the number of car journeys overall.

scrumhalf · September 2023

You could reduce pollution by reducing the number of people in London.

There's barely a scrap of land that hasn't got a block of flats being built on it. More flats means more people which means more journeys which means more pollution. It's not rocket science.

However, local authorities see the coins dropping into their laps, the s106's that they can extort from developers and puffed-up self-important "cabinet members" sitting in town halls think they are doing a good job.

Take the cars off the road? How will people get to work? Public transport is uncomfortably packed in the rush hours. That little nugget of information seems not to have penetrated the thick skulls of those in the mayor's office . Pavements are littered with discarded bikes dumped there by thoughtless morons.

The air in tube stations which are not on the surface is far worse than the air in the street, but you can make money from ULEZ and fixing the problem of tube pollutiob will cost money.

Khan is only the mayor for good things. Anything else is someone else's fault. And after his term as mayor ends, may it be soon, he's got his eye on succeeding Starmer as Labour leader. Because he's made London such a nice place to live.

menamestom · September 2023

Manchester is going to be fun. The signs are up but it is under consultation.

Problem up here is public transport doesn’t really work. Trains are expensive and often cancelled. To be fair none were cancelled on Friday. I know that because they were having one of their regular strikes.

The Metrolink is not particularly extensive and pretty slow. The cheapskates built it above ground by mistake.

Cycle lanes usually last about 100m and are generally just painted on the pavement. It rains nearly everyday so cycling is a soggy afair.

I’m lucky in that I’m close enough to work to be able to cycle or walk and my car is ULEZ compliant. But for many is will be chaos.
Our public transport is terrible.

Sporky · September 2023

BenSirAmos said:

I was under the impression that central government told the Mayor to implement ULEZ as a condition of post-covid funding. So why the hate for the Mayor?

Because the tories have done a brilliant hatchet job, and thickos believe them.

GoFish · September 2023

Sporky said:

BenSirAmos said:

I was under the impression that central government told the Mayor to implement ULEZ as a condition of post-covid funding. So why the hate for the Mayor?

Because the tories have done a brilliant hatchet job, and thickos believe them.

While it's a revolving door between rumour-mongers, newsfeeders and PR execs into government and back, they will continue to sucessfully manage the messaging over cosy kitchen suppers.

euan · September 2023

scrumhalf said:

You could reduce pollution by reducing the number of people in London.

There's barely a scrap of land that hasn't got a block of flats being built on it. More flats means more people which means more journeys which means more pollution. It's not rocket science.

However, local authorities see the coins dropping into their laps, the s106's that they can extort from developers and puffed-up self-important "cabinet members" sitting in town halls think they are doing a good job.

Take the cars off the road? How will people get to work? Public transport is uncomfortably packed in the rush hours. That little nugget of information seems not to have penetrated the thick skulls of those in the mayor's office . Pavements are littered with discarded bikes dumped there by thoughtless morons.

The air in tube stations which are not on the surface is far worse than the air in the street, but you can make money from ULEZ and fixing the problem of tube pollutiob will cost money.

Khan is only the mayor for good things. Anything else is someone else's fault. And after his term as mayor ends, may it be soon, he's got his eye on succeeding Starmer as Labour leader. Because he's made London such a nice place to live.

The far majority of journeys are done on public transport in London. Whereas much of the pollution is caused by single occupancy vehicles.

What is the acceptable threshold of kids dying a year due to the air quality?

Winny_Pooh · September 2023

I have a ulez compliant car. Even so this seems really fast and a big jump. As some have commented the French would be burning shite at this rate. Then again, it's now also "illegal" to protest in this cowardly little baby fascist state so ppl will grumble but do f-all.

Jokes aside, they really should have put in an extended phase in, especially for businesses and tradesmen who don't have a public transport alternative.

And yeah it's a cash grab. Same as when they extended the congestion charging zone (longer hours & weekends) after lockdowns which had nothing to do with congestion.

Re London being too big, yes. I reckon that parliament and the Civil service could/should move to Manchester and change the national power dynamic. But this country is trapped in traditional thinking and I don’t see an end to it soon.

If you want less people in cars then having government mandates on non-essential office work being remote 80% of the time will also affect drivers and commuting. I see trends slowly sliding back to 3 days a week in the office in alot of places of work. You can't decentralise if people can't work remotely.

axisus · September 2023

euan said:

scrumhalf said:

You could reduce pollution by reducing the number of people in London.

There's barely a scrap of land that hasn't got a block of flats being built on it. More flats means more people which means more journeys which means more pollution. It's not rocket science.

However, local authorities see the coins dropping into their laps, the s106's that they can extort from developers and puffed-up self-important "cabinet members" sitting in town halls think they are doing a good job.

Take the cars off the road? How will people get to work? Public transport is uncomfortably packed in the rush hours. That little nugget of information seems not to have penetrated the thick skulls of those in the mayor's office . Pavements are littered with discarded bikes dumped there by thoughtless morons.

The air in tube stations which are not on the surface is far worse than the air in the street, but you can make money from ULEZ and fixing the problem of tube pollutiob will cost money.

Khan is only the mayor for good things. Anything else is someone else's fault. And after his term as mayor ends, may it be soon, he's got his eye on succeeding Starmer as Labour leader. Because he's made London such a nice place to live.

The far majority of journeys are done on public transport in London. Whereas much of the pollution is caused by single occupancy vehicles.

What is the acceptable threshold of kids dying a year due to the air quality?

Being devil's advocate rather than opinionated here, but ...

1 so it's OK to seriously f*ck over thousands of families economically to achieve this?

2 If your kid is badly asthmatic maybe do everything within your power to live in a clean air area rather than live in London and expect the world to revolve around you. (I accept that it's not possible for everyone)

3 This:

If it's really about clean air, why allow any polluting cars in??

I think that this is just another tax on London's poorest people.

Sporky · September 2023

axisus said:

If it's really about clean air, why allow any polluting cars in??

I think that this is just another tax on London's poorest people.

Entirely banning non-compliant vehicles would be even more of a tax on the poor.

The charge should be about encouraging desired behaviour. However, it needs to be matched by more investment in making it safe to cycle, and easier to take public transport (which isn't bad in London overall).

Dominic · September 2023

No , it is actually very good but it's not so great swapping from the Northern to Piccadilly at a busy Kings Cross when you have got 3 tool boxes , 6 books of carpet samples , 3 crates of tile samples , 2 cases of wine, a set of curtains and a pole or a van load of washing machine parts.........you just can't get them all out in time before the doors close !

axisus · September 2023

Sporky said:

axisus said:

If it's really about clean air, why allow any polluting cars in??

I think that this is just another tax on London's poorest people.

Entirely banning non-compliant vehicles would be even more of a tax on the poor.

Yeah but my point is that does what he claims to want, the current plan does not. He's already said f*ck the poor.

Sporky · September 2023

axisus said:

He's already said f*ck the poor.

Which "he"?

It wasn't Khan's idea, and he's gone for less of an expansion than the Tories ordered.

crunchman · September 2023

Sporky said:

BenSirAmos said:

I was under the impression that central government told the Mayor to implement ULEZ as a condition of post-covid funding. So why the hate for the Mayor?

Because the tories have done a brilliant hatchet job, and thickos believe them.

Even if you ignore the Tory hatchet job he's still not fit to be mayor.

Ask anyone who works in TFL, education, the police, or the Fire Service (I have family members who work in all of those).

I'll give one example in an area I know about, and that is the delay to crossrail. He claimed that he only found out that it was going to be delayed a few days before it was announced. The problem is that it was common knowledge in TFL long before that. Either he was lying about not knowing, or he didn't have a clue what was going on. Either way he shouldn't be running it.

His latest scheme on free meals for all primary school children is another example. Schools can only get the funding if they send a letter to the parents saying that it is funded by the mayor - in an election year! Worse still, he's not funding the extra staff to cook the extra meals, or the extra dishes and cutlery, or all the other stuff that goes with it. The schools are supposed to find that money out of their existing budgets, which are already far short of what they need. It's another cynical election stunt like his fares freeze.

The Tories aren't helping matters with the candidates they put up either. I voted for Lord Buckethead at the last mayoral election as a protest, as neither of them were fit to be mayor.

Dominic · September 2023

I've listened to radio interviews with the man and he is the most weasley manipulator ever
My grandmother always said 'never trust a man with small sloping shoulders ' ........so true.

VimFuego · September 2023

how can you see his shoulders on radio?

euan · September 2023

axisus said:

Being devil's advocate rather than opinionated here, but ...

1 so it's OK to seriously f*ck over thousands of families economically to achieve this?

2 If your kid is badly asthmatic maybe do everything within your power to live in a clean air area rather than live in London and expect the world to revolve around you. (I accept that it's not possible for everyone)

3 This:

If it's really about clean air, why allow any polluting cars in??

I think that this is just another tax on London's poorest people.

1. Does it though?

2. You've already answered your own point

3. It's about dissuading people so they reduce their polluting journeys, and by the fuss people are giving it clearly works. By not going for an absolute ban its an admission that people actually need to make some journeys.

All this going on about a £12.50 charge for a small majority of people is laughable when London is the most expensive place to park in the UK

Sporky · September 2023

crunchman said:

Even if you ignore the Tory hatchet job he's still not fit to be mayor.

I was quite careful not to pass any comment on him - I honestly know very little about the chap.

axisus · September 2023

Sporky said:

axisus said:

He's already said f*ck the poor.

Which "he"?

It wasn't Khan's idea, and he's gone for less of an expansion than the Tories ordered.

er.... I think you will find that Sadiq Khan is the Mayor of London. End of conversation!

Sporky · September 2023

axisus said:

Sporky said:

axisus said:

He's already said f*ck the poor.

Which "he"?

It wasn't Khan's idea, and he's gone for less of an expansion than the Tories ordered.

er.... I think you will find that Sadiq Khan is the Mayor of London. End of conversation!

So you're blaming him for a policy created by the government?

scrumhalf · September 2023

euan said:

axisus said:

Being devil's advocate rather than opinionated here, but ...

1 so it's OK to seriously f*ck over thousands of families economically to achieve this?

2 If your kid is badly asthmatic maybe do everything within your power to live in a clean air area rather than live in London and expect the world to revolve around you. (I accept that it's not possible for everyone)

3 This:

If it's really about clean air, why allow any polluting cars in??

I think that this is just another tax on London's poorest people.

1. Does it though?

2. You've already answered your own point

3. It's about dissuading people so they reduce their polluting journeys, and by the fuss people are giving it clearly works. By not going for an absolute ban its an admission that people actually need to make some journeys.

All this going on about a £12.50 charge for a small majority of people is laughable when London is the most expensive place to park in the UK

This extends to suburbs where parking can cost nothing. It covers journeys where there is little or no public transport.

Don't think of it as £12.50 a day, work out the annual cost, divide it by the Lindon living wage and then work out how many extra hours that person has to work to be in exactly the same position they were before Khan's charge.

Haych · September 2023

The issue I have with the ULEZ charge is that it is disproportionately punitive to the least well off.

Those that can afford it will pay it, assuming they don't already have a ULEZ compliant vehicle. Those that don't have a ULEZ compliant vehicle are being screwed both ways. They are being charged £12.50 per day to use their car and any possibility of changing it for a ULEZ compliant car is severely compromised by having to pay £12.50 a day, so they are essentially locked in to paying £12.50 per day for the foreseeable future in many cases.

If there's 365 days in the year, 104 of them are weekend days, 8 are bank holidays and say 25 are annual leave then that's still 228 days per year that one must pay £12.50 per day, assuming the car is used for commuting to work, as a typical example.

That's £2,850 per year which could be put towards a ULEZ compliant vehicle, and depending on a person's standards, could be all that is needed to buy a ULEZ compliant vehicle outright. Many older cars are ULEZ compliant (I drive one) and my two and half litre gas guzzling inline six of a barge can be bought for less than £2,000 in today's market - many other older ULEZ compliant hatchbacks can be had for a lot less.

The other problem I have with ULEZ is that it's the thin end of the wedge. There will be many people swapping their cars for something that is ULEZ compliant today, but when the various local authorities who run ULEZ charging schemes need more money you can bet your last penny that the ULEZ compliance criteria will be revisited and revised, and all of a sudden all those poor people who thought they'd cleared the final hurdle will be back at square one with a ULEZ non-compliant car again and find themselves paying the charge on top of possibly a bank loan taken out to pay for their used-to-be ULEZ compliant car.

As already stated, if this was France, everything would be on fire.

BenSirAmos · September 2023

Nobody gives a shit about the poor.... until...

Oh wait a minute, ULEZ means I can't drive my vehicle in London without paying?. Well, what about the economically disadvantaged?

Actually, there is a whole bunch of stuff we could do to help people on lower incomes that doesn't involve allowing vehicles to further pollute London's air, so please can we just stop pretending that the anti-ULEZ campaign is about helping the poor.

axisus · September 2023

Just to lighten the tone

VimFuego · September 2023

be interesting to see if there can be devised any alternatives to the charge, something that does work to improve air quality in London. I mean, that must be the ultimate goal, improving air quality

Sporky · September 2023

It'd be nice if it is/was.

m_c · September 2023

For those who keep mentioning France and how they'd be protesting, can I just mention they have Crit'air zones.

They simply ban vehicles that don't meet the required emission standards from the zones, with fines far greater than £12.50 for non-compliant vehicles.

Dominic · September 2023

VimFuego said:

be interesting to see if there can be devised any alternatives to the charge, something that does work to improve air quality in London. I mean, that must be the ultimate goal, improving air quality

It would but that just makes for a cuddly story...........it's actually got nothing to do with air quality....
The other point that everybody overlooks is that those who can afford it already have very modern/newish cars .Some clients just moved from Hertfordshire to Primrose Hill now that their house is too big and all 3 kids have married/left home ...first thing they did was buy a Porsche Taycan and an Audi Q8 electric thing .........it's not hurting them but what about my brother-in-law who has a little contract decorating business ......2 old vans and all their work is in London suburbs ......he can just about afford to feed his family.
At the very least commercial vehicles ( for whom public transport /bikes/ walking is not an option ) should be registered exempt.

VimFuego · September 2023

Dominic said:

VimFuego said:

be interesting to see if there can be devised any alternatives to the charge, something that does work to improve air quality in London. I mean, that must be the ultimate goal, improving air quality

It would but that just makes for a cuddly story...........it's actually got nothing to do with air quality....
The other point that everybody overlooks is that those who can afford it already have very modern/newish cars .Some clients just moved from Hertfordshire to Primrose Hill now that their house is too big and all 3 kids have married/left home ...first thing they did was buy a Porsche Taycan and an Audi Q8 electric thing .........it's not hurting them but what about my brother-in-law who has a little contract decorating business ......2 old vans and all their work is in London suburbs ......he can just about afford to feed his family.
At the very least commercial vehicles ( for whom public transport /bikes/ walking is not an option ) should be registered exempt.

not quite sure how that addressed my post (I assume that was your intent as you quoted it), I specifically said alternatives that work to improve air quality.
Just a small aside, when you say "everyone overlooks" have you done the research for this or was it just a piece of hyperbole?

Haych · September 2023

Dominic said:

VimFuego said:

be interesting to see if there can be devised any alternatives to the charge, something that does work to improve air quality in London. I mean, that must be the ultimate goal, improving air quality

It would but that just makes for a cuddly story...........it's actually got nothing to do with air quality....

Nothing at all to do with air quality.

The ability and necessary technology already exists to dramatically reduce the number of private car journeys every day, not just in London, but all over the country and much of the world.

If it was about air quality, it would happen.

elstoof · September 2023

Winny_Pooh said:

I have a ulez compliant car. Even so this seems really fast and a big jump. As some have commented the French would be burning shite at this rate.

Far from it. The entirety of Paris is on track to be pedestrianised by 2030, banning all petrol cars and closing most of it to through traffic. The French are pretty keen, they’ve been closing roads around the Seine on weekends for years so that people can walk along it

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New expanded London ULEZ zone

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