New expanded London ULEZ zone

mo6020 · September 2023

ICBM said:

Everyone wants to save the world until it turns out they can’t drive their car where they want.

Nailed it.

Haych · September 2023

ICBM said:

Everyone wants to save the world until it turns out they can’t drive their car where they want.

It's a little more nuanced than that, IMHO, and none of this has anything to do with saving the world.

Successive governments have failed to provide a viable alternative and a reliable public transport system is still a pipe-dream in this country.

In the past the public have been encouraged by those same governments to buy into the wrong technology which has turned into a time bomb, the fall out of which we are now seeing. I fear the same thing is happening all over again with the BEV revolution (no pun intended).

Then there's the wider issue over where people live vs where people work and how government and business has funnelled the public over many decades into a culture of having to rely on personal transport. Many places are isolated and are nothing more than commuter towns, built on the fringes of big cities to service the workforce that must commute into those cities each day.

The road infrastructure barely supports many places and rail, bus and tram links either don't exist or are so unreliable as to be not worth bothering with.

The soul has been ripped out of the local high street, where it exists - the concept is lost on most new developments - and even shopping is dependent on owning a car to travel to retail parks miles from where people actually live. My wife often complains that the nearest Boots is ten miles away on a retail park on the edge of the nearest city which is in turn miles away from the train station in the middle of that city.

But yet I must be blamed and penalised because I own and use a car! The fault isn't underinvestment, poor planning and bad advice, it's the public's fault.

I'm all for getting people out of their cars and reducing the number of car journeys. It's all very possible, much of it immediately possible, as was demonstrated during the pandemic.

But the will doesn't exist. No politician is ever going to stand up and tell business to encourage their staff to work from home wherever possible. That would have a massive impact on the number of car journeys every day and a massive impact on improving air quality.

But it won't happen. Ergo, it has nothing to do with saving the world and everything to do with making the numbers add up.

scrumhalf · September 2023

Every so often the saviour of the petrol car comes along and then fails.

Diesel! Er, hang on a minute, it pollutes too much.

Electric cars! Er, gang on a minute, there's one charging point for every 10,000 vehicles, they have a range of 25 feet, the batteries cost a fortune and require rhe enslavement of young children.

Public transport! It's already packed, expensive and sparsely timetabled and will fall over completely if passenger numbers go up by 25%.

What’s needed is a policy that will take more time to bear fruit than the next electoral cycle.

Chalky · September 2023

scrumhalf said:

Every so often the saviour of the petrol car comes along and then fails.

Diesel! Er, hang on a minute, it pollutes too much.

Electric cars! Er, gang on a minute, there's one charging point for every 10,000 vehicles, they have a range of 25 feet, the batteries cost a fortune and require rhe enslavement of young children.

Public transport! It's already packed, expensive and sparsely timetabled and will fall over completely if passenger numbers go up by 25%.

What’s needed is a policy that will take more time to bear fruit than the next electoral cycle.

You deserve far more wisdoms! Apart from nuclear power, all of the current 'solutions' are based on the logically absurd doctrine of "doing something is better than doing nothing".

ICBM · September 2023

Haych said:

It's a little more nuanced than that, IMHO

Well, it was intentionally blunt

.

Being honest, yes I fully understand that many people do actually need their cars to get to work, public transport is not always available at the right time of going the right way, and carrying heavy things is impossible - I know that very well since I used to repair amps for guitar shops in the centres of Edinburgh and Glasgow, and it's not feasible to carry big amps on a bus even if I could get close enough to the shops that way. I also understand that for a lot of people whose finances are very tight, replacing an old polluting car isn't an option, and paying the charge (if it is one rather than a ban) just moves the goalposts even further away.

But it seems that everyone agrees that we need better air quality or to help solve the climate crisis, until it involves restrictions or costs on their car use... a lot of which *isn't* strictly necessary. I do own a car - but I try to use it as little as reasonably possible. I do use public transport where it's available and quick enough, and I walk to work every day - I'm lucky enough to live under two miles away from it, although many people I know (including some of my colleagues) regard that as not walkable.

So what else *can* be done other than to try to discourage car use? We can't do nothing. Even if you can do things like encourage people to think about whether they *need* to use the car that day or whether they can combine the journey with another one in order to save one lot of congestion charge, rather than just jumping in the car whenever it's convenient, it will make a difference - it's already been proven that for the majority, persuasion doesn't work. So I don't agree that it's unfair to charge or restrict car use in city centres, because *excessive car use is the problem*.

Haych · September 2023

ICBM said:
So what else *can* be done other than to try to discourage car use? We can't do nothing. Even if you can do things like encourage people to think about whether they *need* to use the car that day or whether they can combine the journey with another one in order to save one lot of congestion charge, rather than just jumping in the car whenever it's convenient, it will make a difference - it's already been proven that for the majority, persuasion doesn't work. So I don't agree that it's unfair to charge or restrict car use in city centres, because *excessive car use is the problem*.

The capitalist free market enterprise system we have won’t allow it but here’s some things we could do right away:

1.) If a person can effectively work from home then it should be encouraged, going to the office should be an exception rather than a rule.

That would prevent many personal journeys every single day.

2.) For those that cannot work from home, could a hybrid attendance policy work?

More car journeys removed.

3.) For jobs that absolutely cannot be done at all from home (warehouse workers, delivery drivers), could a compressed working week be offered - only work 4/5 days - that would reduce personal commutes by car by 20% on those days.

4.) Get high street retail leases out of the hands of greedy venture capitalists who charge obscene rents that sink most businesses within a year.

Link high street rent to income/turnover/profit so a high street business becomes viable again and people are given a choice locally other than driving out of town for essentials.

5.) More carrot, less stick. Instead of penalising people for using their cars, reward them for not using their car. Maybe even have a tax credit system for those who choose to give up their car, or offer free public transport in exchange for giving up owning and using a personal car.

6.) Encourage car sharing - bit out there to implement effectively but every little helps.

7.) The laws on e-scooters could be relaxed so people can have a swifter way of moving around the local area without needing to use a car - the quick trip to the supermarket, dropping the kiddie off at school etc. I’ve just come back from Mallorca and there are literally hundreds of them there and nobody was being run over.

8.) It’s a no brainier, but sort out public transport. More trains more often. Shuttle bus services in and out of the cities and towns, trams in every city and town were feasible - remember them? Amazing idea that was shelved probably to make way for the motor car but which in recent years are being reintroduced.

And make it affordable so people see it as a viable alternative to using a car. No stupid train fares that immediately make people shut the web browser and pick up the car keys!

9.) Do you really need your Amazon/other pile em high sell em cheap e-commerce business delivery next/same day? Offer discounts for customers who are happy to wait a few days - reduce the number of vans and van journeys - this would also work well with number 3

10.) if you’re going to charge ULEZ penalties then put the money collected into a fund that people can draw on interest free to ditch the car for other transport means, or to buy (and I type this through gritted teeth and mashed up keys) an electric vehicle.

ICBM · September 2023

^ Yes, I agree with all those. (Apart from car sharing, really - it doesn't work well in practice, and more use of taxis is more efficient.) The problem is the level of carrots that have to be given, because car use is just *so* convenient for most people... some stick is probably still necessary.

Axe_meister · September 2023

Self driving electric taxi's.
Some sort of pod style mono rail transit system.
For long haul transit, rather than rail a hyperloop style system.
Get business out of the cities, even get business to fund their own live in campus, where local housing is part of the package, or you pay rent to the employer, but the funds go into a savings account, so when you leave the rent you pay is given back to you so you still have a chance to buy later for retirement.

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New expanded London ULEZ zone

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