New expanded London ULEZ zone

crosstownvamp · September 2023

Dominic said:

... but what about my brother-in-law who has a little contract decorating business ......2 old vans and all their work is in London suburbs ......he can just about afford to feed his family.

Can you give us his number? He must be very cheap if can only just afford to feed his family.

Dominic · September 2023

He has a 700k mortgage which has got a lot more expensive lately ........I didn't say he was especially cheap

crunchman · September 2023

Haych said:

The issue I have with the ULEZ charge is that it is disproportionately punitive to the least well off.

Those that can afford it will pay it, assuming they don't already have a ULEZ compliant vehicle. Those that don't have a ULEZ compliant vehicle are being screwed both ways. They are being charged £12.50 per day to use their car and any possibility of changing it for a ULEZ compliant car is severely compromised by having to pay £12.50 a day, so they are essentially locked in to paying £12.50 per day for the foreseeable future in many cases.

If there's 365 days in the year, 104 of them are weekend days, 8 are bank holidays and say 25 are annual leave then that's still 228 days per year that one must pay £12.50 per day, assuming the car is used for commuting to work, as a typical example.

That's £2,850 per year which could be put towards a ULEZ compliant vehicle, and depending on a person's standards, could be all that is needed to buy a ULEZ compliant vehicle outright. Many older cars are ULEZ compliant (I drive one) and my two and half litre gas guzzling inline six of a barge can be bought for less than £2,000 in today's market - many other older ULEZ compliant hatchbacks can be had for a lot less.

The other problem I have with ULEZ is that it's the thin end of the wedge. There will be many people swapping their cars for something that is ULEZ compliant today, but when the various local authorities who run ULEZ charging schemes need more money you can bet your last penny that the ULEZ compliance criteria will be revisited and revised, and all of a sudden all those poor people who thought they'd cleared the final hurdle will be back at square one with a ULEZ non-compliant car again and find themselves paying the charge on top of possibly a bank loan taken out to pay for their used-to-be ULEZ compliant car.

As already stated, if this was France, everything would be on fire.

In France you have to have a Crit Ait sticker to drive into Paris and several other big cities. If you have a really stinky old car, you can't drive in at all, so for owners of those cars, it's worse than London.

Various other European cities have banned diesels completely.

The big problem with the ULEZ is that it's not addressing the main problem, which is too many car journeys in our cities. Tyre wear is a bigger source of particulates than exhausts, and that is worse with electric cars as they are heavier. 90% of cars in the zone are compliant, so it's not going to do anything significant to reduce the overall number of car journeys.

khaotic · September 2023

elstoof said:

BluesLover said:

If reducing air pollution is so important, why aren't they taxing woodburners?

Because they’re already banned in London

And a fat lot of difference that has made - there are at least 3 in regular use in my immediate 5 nearest neighbours. With sod all effective policing there's no incentive to comply and they are/were so trendy that hordes of them were installed over the last 10 years

Haych · September 2023

crunchman said:

Haych said:

As already stated, if this was France, everything would be on fire.

In France you have to have a Crit Ait sticker to drive into Paris and several other big cities. If you have a really stinky old car, you can't drive in at all, so for owners of those cars, it's worse than London.

Ok, fair enough, I stand corrected on the France thing, although even the French aren't as in love with the idea as some would have us believe. The French Green Party are even against it and have said it's the worst possible way to improve air quality.

The rollout to more French cities is being watered down due to social pressure, too, as I understand with some claiming it will lead to the death of the idea altogether.

crunchman said:

The big problem with the ULEZ is that it's not addressing the main problem, which is too many car journeys in our cities. Tyre wear is a bigger source of particulates than exhausts, and that is worse with electric cars as they are heavier. 90% of cars in the zone are compliant, so it's not going to do anything significant to reduce the overall number of car journeys.

Agreed. And as I already stated in a later comment above, we already have the means to drastically reduce car journeys but doing so will mean taxes/charges/penalties cannot be collected in anywhere near the same rate.

Money trumps all, I'm afraid.

HerbieTheRadDorklift · September 2023

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

Jonathangus · September 2023

crosstownvamp · September 2023

Dominic said:

He has a 700k mortgage which has got a lot more expensive lately ........I didn't say he was especially cheap

So he's a terrible example - any small trader who can take out a £700k mortgage, and then find he's short of money, is to put it bluntly a fool. But his charge out rates will have gone up, so really he's just crying wolf.

elstoof · September 2023

khaotic said:

elstoof said:

BluesLover said:

If reducing air pollution is so important, why aren't they taxing woodburners?

Because they’re already banned in London

And a fat lot of difference that has made - there are at least 3 in regular use in my immediate 5 nearest neighbours. With sod all effective policing there's no incentive to comply and they are/were so trendy that hordes of them were installed over the last 10 years

It’s difficult to tax things that aren’t legal though. I’m in a Victorian terrace so most houses have open fires still, you can typically smell wood burning all through winter. It would be incredibly easy to enforce, just look for the chimneys with smoke coming out of them, I don’t think many people even realise it’s not permitted, when the garden centre has pallets of logs for sale and MPs tell old people they should burn books to keep warm in winter

guyinlyon · September 2023

m_c said:

For those who keep mentioning France and how they'd be protesting, can I just mention they have Crit'air zones.

They simply ban vehicles that don't meet the required emission standards from the zones, with fines far greater than £12.50 for non-compliant vehicles.

Not only that but the pollution zones are changeable. If the pollution is bad for a day they can just say, "Sorry, all you folks with Crit'air 2 and above stickers can't drive in the city today." It's a fine system.

mo6020 · September 2023

HerbieTheRadDorklift said:

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

Pretty much any car newer than 10 years old is compliant, diesels included. There are various scrapping schemes to offer financial assistance if you do need to buy a new car, but I don't know about the level of help.

I don't have a car, and my GF who drives every day flogged her old non-compliant polo for one that was. From what a recall the cost after trade-in was about a grand. I think something like 90% of vehicles registered in London are already compliant.

Axe_meister · September 2023

Winny_Pooh said:

I have a ulez compliant car. Even so this seems really fast and a big jump. As some have commented the French would be burning shite at this rate. Then again, it's now also "illegal" to protest in this cowardly little baby fascist state so ppl will grumble but do f-all.

Jokes aside, they really should have put in an extended phase in, especially for businesses and tradesmen who don't have a public transport alternative.

And yeah it's a cash grab. Same as when they extended the congestion charging zone (longer hours & weekends) after lockdowns which had nothing to do with congestion.

Re London being too big, yes. I reckon that parliament and the Civil service could/should move to Manchester and change the national power dynamic. But this country is trapped in traditional thinking and I don’t see an end to it soon.

If you want less people in cars then having government mandates on non-essential office work being remote 80% of the time will also affect drivers and commuting. I see trends slowly sliding back to 3 days a week in the office in alot of places of work. You can't decentralise if people can't work remotely.

No don't send parliament to a big city. Build a purpose built campus in the middle of nowhere. Make sure no bars/strip clubs get approval and just have a massive Premier Inn for MPs to stay.
Also make them clock in and have to do X number of hours a month to keep their pay.
Food will be provided by compass group at their lowest tier of quality and local off license will only have the cheapest of the cheap booze on offer.

HerbieTheRadDorklift · September 2023

mo6020 said:

HerbieTheRadDorklift said:

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

Pretty much any car newer than 10 years old is compliant, diesels included. There are various scrapping schemes to offer financial assistance if you do need to buy a new car, but I don't know about the level of help.

I don't have a car, and my GF who drives every day flogged her old non-compliant polo for one that was. From what a recall the cost after trade-in was about a grand. I think something like 90% of vehicles registered in London are already compliant.

Ah, that's not as bad as I thought then. I got the impression you had to buy a brand spanking electric or pay the tax.

axisus · September 2023

HerbieTheRadDorklift said:

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

Yes, that's basically it. Get a new (or secondhand newer car) if your car isn't compliant or hand over cash every day.

To my mind, ULEZ in the centre of London made sense, but 'outer' London is areas just like any town. Houses with cars on the drive, people dropping their kids to school, going shopping, visiting elderly relatives etc. It's a completely different ball game to have ULEZ there.

Axe_meister · September 2023

I can see the evolution of ULEZ especially in the centre of London becoming EV only

scrumhalf · September 2023

As I have read, there are so many exceptions to the scrappage scheme that only a fraction of applicants are successful. But you don't hear about that from the mayor's office.

Spin over substance.

euan · September 2023

axisus said:

HerbieTheRadDorklift said:

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

Yes, that's basically it. Get a new (or secondhand newer car) if your car isn't compliant or hand over cash every day.

To my mind, ULEZ in the centre of London made sense, but 'outer' London is areas just like any town. Houses with cars on the drive, people dropping their kids to school, going shopping, visiting elderly relatives etc. It's a completely different ball game to have ULEZ there.

It’s not a daily charge if you stay within the zone. It’s only when you enter it.

Tiff Needell made a fool of himself a couple of weeks ago arguing how it was going to cost him hundreds of pounds extra for his car to be parked at Heathrow in the zone while he goes on holiday. He’d been told on good authority this was the case.

A lot of people replied with the ULEZ page that disproved it quite easily.

Clecko · September 2023

HerbieTheRadDorklift said:

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

We live in SE London and have a 2006, 1.4-litre petrol Citroen, which is ULEZ compliant. It's worth less than a grand. I just don't see this as a problem for most families, even for most families who have one of the 15% or so of non-compliant vehicles - and especially not given the extension of the scrappage grant.

It's tougher on tradespeople with vans etc, I think - there's an argument for better protection/management there.

On the whole though, I'd be happy with a move to removing cars from London entirely/with sensible exceptions. That's the direction the French are going in for Paris and I think it will make for better cities overall. The change in the air quality where we live when the lockdowns came was a real eye opener.

crunchman · September 2023

HerbieTheRadDorklift said:

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

Any petrol car less than 18 years or so old will be compliant. It's not hard to find a cheap runabout that is compliant.

The VW diesel scandal blew up 6 years ago. I bet that 90% of the diesel cars with whinging owners have been bought by their current owners within the last 6 years. If you are the kind of selfish git who deliberately buys a stinking diesel to drive into London on a regular basis, I'm afraid I don't have a lot of sympathy.

Having said that, the ULEZ isn't solving the fundamental problem, as discussed above.

mo6020 · September 2023

Clecko said:

HerbieTheRadDorklift said:

Sorry if this has been said but how are normal people supposed to either buy a new car or pay £12.50 a day? I honestly can't see how it works. Do these normal people in London not drive? Honest question, I live oop North.

On the whole though, I'd be happy with a move to removing cars from London entirely/with sensible exceptions. That's the direction the French are going in for Paris and I think it will make for better cities overall. The change in the air quality where we live when the lockdowns came was a real eye opener.

Same. Imagine how nice it'd be if they banned cars from zone 1?

axisus · September 2023

euan said:

It’s not a daily charge if you stay within the zone. It’s only when you enter it.

That's not right! Charging runs from midnight to midnight every day of the year including Xmas.

axisus · September 2023

crunchman said:

If you are the kind of selfish git who deliberately buys a stinking diesel to drive into London on a regular basis, I'm afraid I don't have a lot of sympathy.

In all fairness the govt were telling people to buy diesel cars not that long ago! My old Mazda 2 was only £30 tax for the year!

crosstownvamp · September 2023

Re. France I just read that last year they banned a lot of domestic flights:

"any journeys that are possible in less than two-and-a-half hours by train cannot be taken as a flight"

I've not read of any gilets jaune protests over that, I expect we'd get gilets barbour protests here. Then again their trains do work better.

Clecko · September 2023

I didn't know that about flights. We're going to Amsterdam next month. I wanted to get the Eurostar, which I really like and is as easy for us to get to and from as Gatwick. Flights for both of us = £180. Train tickets for both of us = £410. Annoying.

crunchman · September 2023

axisus said:

crunchman said:

If you are the kind of selfish git who deliberately buys a stinking diesel to drive into London on a regular basis, I'm afraid I don't have a lot of sympathy.

In all fairness the govt were telling people to buy diesel cars not that long ago! My old Mazda 2 was only £30 tax for the year!

The changes in the tax on diesel cars that did away with that were announced in 2017. Very few of the people who are now moaning about paying the charge on a diesel will have bought it before 2017.

darius · September 2023

axisus said:

euan said:

It’s not a daily charge if you stay within the zone. It’s only when you enter it.

That's not right! Charging runs from midnight to midnight every day of the year including Xmas.

Exactly - here’s the text from the TFL site:
’ If your vehicle doesn't meet the ULEZ emissions standards and isn't exempt, you need to pay a £12.50 daily charge to drive within the zone.’
Looks like a daily charge to be in it to me.

My lad has a non ULEZ van (for bikes and camping - it’s cheap and brilliant) but doesn’t live in London. He can’t visit his Grandma in London without incurring the daily charge and he’s broke. He’s not going to change vehicles just because of this. The result will be less visits, and only visits when we’re all going in our ULEZ car. So yes less hard pollution, more emotional soft damage. Is it worth it?

Dominic · September 2023

crosstownvamp said:

Dominic said:

He has a 700k mortgage which has got a lot more expensive lately ........I didn't say he was especially cheap

So he's a terrible example - any small trader who can take out a £700k mortgage, and then find he's short of money, is to put it bluntly a fool. But his charge out rates will have gone up, so really he's just crying wolf.

No,his mortgage payment has doubled in the last 18 months and despite putting up charge rates his customers are also having a tough time so he doesn't get as much well paid work . They're not that small ......I think he has about 15 employees

Johnnyseven · September 2023

axisus said:

euan said:

scrumhalf said:

You could reduce pollution by reducing the number of people in London.

There's barely a scrap of land that hasn't got a block of flats being built on it. More flats means more people which means more journeys which means more pollution. It's not rocket science.

However, local authorities see the coins dropping into their laps, the s106's that they can extort from developers and puffed-up self-important "cabinet members" sitting in town halls think they are doing a good job.

Take the cars off the road? How will people get to work? Public transport is uncomfortably packed in the rush hours. That little nugget of information seems not to have penetrated the thick skulls of those in the mayor's office . Pavements are littered with discarded bikes dumped there by thoughtless morons.

The air in tube stations which are not on the surface is far worse than the air in the street, but you can make money from ULEZ and fixing the problem of tube pollutiob will cost money.

Khan is only the mayor for good things. Anything else is someone else's fault. And after his term as mayor ends, may it be soon, he's got his eye on succeeding Starmer as Labour leader. Because he's made London such a nice place to live.

The far majority of journeys are done on public transport in London. Whereas much of the pollution is caused by single occupancy vehicles.

What is the acceptable threshold of kids dying a year due to the air quality?

Being devil's advocate rather than opinionated here, but ...

1 so it's OK to seriously f*ck over thousands of families economically to achieve this?

2 If your kid is badly asthmatic maybe do everything within your power to live in a clean air area rather than live in London and expect the world to revolve around you. (I accept that it's not possible for everyone)

3 This:

If it's really about clean air, why allow any polluting cars in??

I think that this is just another tax on London's poorest people.

Khan doesn't have the power to ban cars entering the zone.

Brio · September 2023

No,his mortgage payment has doubled in the last 18 months and despite putting up charge rates his customers are also having a tough time so he doesn't get as much well paid work . They're not that small ......I think he has about 15 employees

He still only has to add a charge to each day his vans drive into the zone.

Compared to the rate hike since Covid made finding a tradesman harder and the fact those nice Eastern Europeans have gone home post Brexit I find it hard to have any sympathy for him/

I don't know many tradesfolk in the Surrey area who aren't busy.

Is he simply shit at getting new work in?

ICBM · September 2023

Everyone wants to save the world until it turns out they can’t drive their car where they want.

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