New expanded London ULEZ zone

crunchman · February 2023

Dominic said:

none of the deliveries we get are electric vans except Ocado

Amazon, DPD, UPS, whatever Hermes are called this week, and all the other major companies doing deliveries, will be using vans that are less than 7 years old, so will be compliant.

Tradesmen are the people who are likely to get hit, but if you are spending £300 per day on a tradesman, then you can probably swallow an extra £12.50.

crunchman · February 2023

idiotwindow said:

crunchman said:

It's all very well seeing the guy who has come to fit the wood floor in the lounge arrive in a £74,000 van but don't be surprised when he says he charges £600 per day because he needs to pay finance on the van that replaced £10k of Ford Transit ......
If he can get the Finance .
Ultimately all costs wash up on the shore of the end user .......not ideal when people can't pay the GAS bill .
Legitimate Trade vehicles should be exempt for lack of viable alternative.

Why is he going to charge £600 per day when the ULEZ charge is £12.50 per day?

The same point can be made about those thinking of selling non-ULEZ cars that currently work fine and buying something newer and more expensive – it's probably more cost-effective to suck up the daily cost (or pass it on in the case of tradespeople). However, the direction of travel (excuse the pun) is clear and the ULEZ expansion is another example of policy implemented largely by (mostly unelected) middle class people in white collar jobs (probably still working at home on their laptops) that disproportionately affects those on lower income. People who are working and doing stuff that actually keeps society ticking along and who are often struggling to make ends meet as it is. The people making the policy (including the likes of Khan) simply have no idea (or care about) how people lower down the income scale live. Telling people to get on their bikes is just a left of centre ("progressive") version of the old right wing Norman Tebbit trope.

Air pollution disproportionately effects those on lower incomes.

Edit: the muggers from the White City estate who come to Chiswick and use bikes to make their escape aren't particularly white collar or middle class.

Dominic · February 2023

crunchman said:

idiotwindow said:

crunchman said:

It's all very well seeing the guy who has come to fit the wood floor in the lounge arrive in a £74,000 van but don't be surprised when he says he charges £600 per day because he needs to pay finance on the van that replaced £10k of Ford Transit ......
If he can get the Finance .
Ultimately all costs wash up on the shore of the end user .......not ideal when people can't pay the GAS bill .
Legitimate Trade vehicles should be exempt for lack of viable alternative.

Why is he going to charge £600 per day when the ULEZ charge is £12.50 per day?

The same point can be made about those thinking of selling non-ULEZ cars that currently work fine and buying something newer and more expensive – it's probably more cost-effective to suck up the daily cost (or pass it on in the case of tradespeople). However, the direction of travel (excuse the pun) is clear and the ULEZ expansion is another example of policy implemented largely by (mostly unelected) middle class people in white collar jobs (probably still working at home on their laptops) that disproportionately affects those on lower income. People who are working and doing stuff that actually keeps society ticking along and who are often struggling to make ends meet as it is. The people making the policy (including the likes of Khan) simply have no idea (or care about) how people lower down the income scale live. Telling people to get on their bikes is just a left of centre ("progressive") version of the old right wing Norman Tebbit trope.

Makes me think of the parody meme at the start of the Pandemic where a guy in Hi Vis and hard-hat is sat in his kitchen with a load of heavy duty tools on the table , a cement-mixer and theodolite next to the table .He has a mug of Tea in hand and a caption .....'busy working from home '

chillidoggy · February 2023

The thing I’m getting from all this is that if Greater London air quality mist improve, it needs to be paid for, whichever way that happens.

CavemanGrogg · February 2023

crunchman said:

The big problem is the complete lack of action from central government. They refuse to do something coherent and organised so it's left up to local authorities.

The government needs to do something centrally with road tax and fuel duty.

The big thing they need to do is tax cars by weight. Tyre and brake wear is a much bigger source of particulate emissions than exhausts. Cars (if you can call a lot of them cars anymore) are getting bigger and bigger. Chelsea tractors weighing 2.5 tonnes are not uncommon around here.

Ultimately though, we have to reduce the number of journeys made by car. Something like 70% of car journeys are under 5 miles. A very large proportion of those should be walked or cycled.

That will be next, once a big enough % of the population who live within the ULEZ all own EVs. They have to make up the revenue lost to both fuel duty and ULEZ passes, they're already talking about a charge per mile when it comes to charging EVs to make up for lost taxes, something they - as in everybody pro EV and pushing for them, said would never happen, same with other forms of taxes and charges ICE vehicle owners currently pay, and EV vehicle owners either don't pay, or pay at heavily discounted amounts.

scrumhalf · February 2023

On the one hand Khan will rake in money ad a result of the ULEZ expansion and on the other hand he'll be getting more from his ever-increasing cut of council tax from the growing number of residents now living in greater London thanks to his plan to cover any available space with blocks of flats. And let's not forget the s106 impositions which will feature the Mayor's name more prominently than the developer's.

More flats means more people on an already uncomfortably overcrowded public transport system. Naturally he will continue to be driven around in his bulletproof limo.

There are too many people in London. Large swathes now resemble East Berlin with crazily dense developments.

Cut emissions? Have fewer people to make them.

ICBM · February 2023

Dominic said:

There is no viable alternative ......there are no commercially available Vans of Transit size

Not true - there are at least half a dozen electric vans in the industrial estate I work on, Transit or Renault Master size - I think they’re mostly Nissans. Pretty sure I saw a Ford one the other day too.

It’s certainly true that they’re currently expensive and a cost most traders don’t need, unless they need a new van anyway, but if anything an electric is most suitable for this sort of work as the travel distance is usually fairly short and they can be left on charge overnight as they’re only used in the day.

We have to move forward - business as usual isn’t an option now. The problem is that those who can least afford a new vehicle will be the most affected by it.

VimFuego · February 2023

Yup the smaller WAV ambulances we have are all now hybrids.

Johnnyseven · February 2023

scrumhalf said:

More flats means more people on an already uncomfortably overcrowded public transport system.

Ridership is still down 20 or so % on pre-pandemic levels, so there's capacity, plus TfL could do with the extra cash to free them from the reins of the govt.

Dominic · February 2023

ICBM said:

Dominic said:

There is no viable alternative ......there are no commercially available Vans of Transit size

Not true - there are at least half a dozen electric vans in the industrial estate I work on, Transit or Renault Master size - I think they’re mostly Nissans. Pretty sure I saw a Ford one the other day too.

It’s certainly true that they’re currently expensive and a cost most traders don’t need, unless they need a new van anyway, but if anything an electric is most suitable for this sort of work as the travel distance is usually fairly short and they can be left on charge overnight as they’re only used in the day.

We have to move forward - business as usual isn’t an option now. The problem is that those who can least afford a new vehicle will be the most affected by it.

No they are substantially smaller ( maybe same as short wheel base transit ) but tiny compared to the larger wheel base transits and full length Sprinters.SWB are useless to serious contractors.

boogieman · February 2023

CavemanGrogg said:

crunchman said:

The big problem is the complete lack of action from central government. They refuse to do something coherent and organised so it's left up to local authorities.

The government needs to do something centrally with road tax and fuel duty.

The big thing they need to do is tax cars by weight. Tyre and brake wear is a much bigger source of particulate emissions than exhausts. Cars (if you can call a lot of them cars anymore) are getting bigger and bigger. Chelsea tractors weighing 2.5 tonnes are not uncommon around here.

Ultimately though, we have to reduce the number of journeys made by car. Something like 70% of car journeys are under 5 miles. A very large proportion of those should be walked or cycled.

That will be next, once a big enough % of the population who live within the ULEZ all own EVs. They have to make up the revenue lost to both fuel duty and ULEZ passes, they're already talking about a charge per mile when it comes to charging EVs to make up for lost taxes, something they - as in everybody pro EV and pushing for them, said would never happen, same with other forms of taxes and charges ICE vehicle owners currently pay, and EV vehicle owners either don't pay, or pay at heavily discounted amounts.

I’m not sure about charging EVs per mile but the govt has already decided to charge them VED from 2025. It was inevitable of course, once the tax take from petrol and diesels starts to disappear.

No doubt Khan and his successors will also dream up some other way to rake in money once the ULEZ incomes start dropping.

Dominic · February 2023

of course ,
Wearing a pair of Jeans £5 per day
Wearing a loud shirt in a built up area £25
Carrying a rucksack in a SW postcode £40
etc etc

Kittyfrisk · February 2023

Dominic said:

of course ,
Wearing a pair of Jeans £5 per day
Wearing a loud shirt in a built up area £25
Carrying a rucksack in a SW postcode £40
etc etc

Could be worse, in 2005 you got shot dead for carrying a rucksack while wearing jeans & looking a bit foreign.

Sporky · February 2023

Dominic said:

SWB are useless to serious contractors.

Are they any good for true Scotsmen?

Dominic · February 2023

Kittyfrisk said:

Dominic said:

of course ,
Wearing a pair of Jeans £5 per day
Wearing a loud shirt in a built up area £25
Carrying a rucksack in a SW postcode £40
etc etc

Could be worse, in 2005 you got shot dead for carrying a rucksack while wearing jeans & looking a bit foreign.

only if you were Brazilian ........that was a terrible incident

hywelg · February 2023

Dominic said:

ICBM said:

Dominic said:

There is no viable alternative ......there are no commercially available Vans of Transit size

Not true - there are at least half a dozen electric vans in the industrial estate I work on, Transit or Renault Master size - I think they’re mostly Nissans. Pretty sure I saw a Ford one the other day too.

It’s certainly true that they’re currently expensive and a cost most traders don’t need, unless they need a new van anyway, but if anything an electric is most suitable for this sort of work as the travel distance is usually fairly short and they can be left on charge overnight as they’re only used in the day.

We have to move forward - business as usual isn’t an option now. The problem is that those who can least afford a new vehicle will be the most affected by it.

No they are substantially smaller ( maybe same as short wheel base transit ) but tiny compared to the larger wheel base transits and full length Sprinters.SWB are useless to serious contractors.

Amazon have been using MB EV Sprinters around here for a long while. Definitely over a year. Lots to choose from in the SWB Transit size. This was in 2020.

https://electrek.co/2020/08/28/amazon-orders-electric-vans-from-mercedes-benz/

crunchman · February 2023

hywelg said:

Amazon have been using MB EV Sprinters around here for a long while. Definitely over a year. Lots to choose from in the SWB Transit size. This was in 2020.

https://electrek.co/2020/08/28/amazon-orders-electric-vans-from-mercedes-benz/

It makes sense for Amazon.

The depot nearest us is Neasden, which is probably about 6 miles away around the North Circular. Traffic on the North Circular road is normally bad, so it will be stop start. Then lots of drop offs with a minute or two between each. The vans aren't likely to make any long journeys. It's hard to think of a better way to kill the DPF on a diesel.

The savings on not having to replace clogged up DPFs will be significant. Charging the vans will also be a lot cheaper than putting diesel in at current prices.

Tone71 · February 2023

I guess like most things ultimately it comes down to whether or not it affects YOU.

We all want better, cleaner air, my asthmatic lungs are crying out for it. I'd love to see more dedicated and segregated cycle lanes to encourage all to cycle and leave the cars at home but yet all we have mostly is half hearted lines painted on the carriageway with nothing stopping motorists from crossing into them.

How many people have cycled in central London? It's terrifying.

The issue most greater London borough residents have is the fact that no matter how it is wrapped up it is a cynical cash grab at a time when finances are squeezed enough, the amount of people I know having to sell their cars is ridiculous, there will be a glut of decent but non ULEZ compliant cars coming on the market soon, if I lived elsewhere with no need to visit a London borough I'd be snapping one up.

That and the fact that the London mayor appears to dislike Londoners, isn't a very likeable character but one who constantly moans and blames central government whilst shirking any blame for TFL's shortcoming and failures makes it a tough pill to swallow.

FWIW I cycle have 2 ULEZ compliant cars and work in central London so am generally not affected...but...It's still a cynical cash grab from an incompetent mayor.

And electric vehicles are great......if you can find somewhere to charge them.

idiotwindow · February 2023

Tone71 said:

How many people have cycled in central London? It's terrifying.

It really isn’t. In fact the more central you cycle, the easier (or potentially less hairy) it gets.

crunchman · February 2023

idiotwindow said:

Tone71 said:

How many people have cycled in central London? It's terrifying.

It really isn’t. In fact the more central you cycle, the easier (or potentially less hairy) it gets.

Wis'd

The cars do not move fast in central London, and there are lots of bikes these days, which has changed the culture. Cars drivers get in the habit of looking out for bikes far more than in other places.

Apart from the air quality (and pedestrians stepping out in front of you), I feel safer cycling there than on open roads in the country. As far as I can remember, the stats bear that out as well. You are less likely to be killed per km travelled in London than anywhere else.

Johnnyseven · February 2023

idiotwindow said:

Tone71 said:

How many people have cycled in central London? It's terrifying.

It really isn’t. In fact the more central you cycle, the easier (or potentially less hairy) it gets.

I cycle in central London and agree it's not terrifying, it's much worse on my way into central London.

Johnnyseven · February 2023

Tone71 said:

That and the fact that the London mayor appears to dislike Londoners, isn't a very likeable character but one who constantly moans and blames central government whilst shirking any blame for TFL's shortcoming and failures makes it a tough pill to swallow.

Can you please elaborate on these shortcomings and failures?

axisus · September 2023

So ..... Ulez came in last week. I am now driving to somewhere outside London, getting a bike out of the boot and cycling 12km to work. OK in this weather, but won't be much fun at other times of year. I also have to carry a 9kg rucksack so that's real fun, plus I am now getting up at 5.30am every day. I didn't expect to be doing this at 60 years old!

I've been following an anti-ULEZ group on facebook all year. Goodness me, there are so many morons out there! I'm constantly wondering whether to just leave but there is interesting or useful stuff occasionally. There's this big group of vandals now going around damaging cameras, they call themselves the 'blade-runners' and they think they are bloody Robin Hood! They have lots of support from the low IQ end of the spectrum, which seems to be about 70% of the membership! It must be costing tax payers a heck of a lot of money all the constant repair work. I would love to see the whole thing collapse, but I can't endorse wanton vandalism. I wonder how long this stuff it will last before people have to accept it. I'm hoping to win enough on the premium bonds to get a compliant car, but I'm not holding my breath on that ...

I feel I'd quite like to take a day off, pay my £12.50 and park up outside Sadiq Khan's house with the engine running all day.

BluesLover · September 2023

If reducing air pollution is so important, why aren't they taxing woodburners?

Dominic · September 2023

axisus said:

So ..... Ulez came in last week. I am now driving to somewhere outside London, getting a bike out of the boot and cycling 12km to work. OK in this weather, but won't be much fun at other times of year. I also have to carry a 9kg rucksack so that's real fun, plus I am now getting up at 5.30am every day. I didn't expect to be doing this at 60 years old!

I've been following an anti-ULEZ group on facebook all year. Goodness me, there are so many morons out there! I'm constantly wondering whether to just leave but there is interesting or useful stuff occasionally. There's this big group of vandals now going around damaging cameras, they call themselves the 'blade-runners' and they think they are bloody Robin Hood! They have lots of support from the low IQ end of the spectrum, which seems to be about 70% of the membership! It must be costing tax payers a heck of a lot of money all the constant repair work. I would love to see the whole thing collapse, but I can't endorse wanton vandalism. I wonder how long this stuff it will last before people have to accept it. I'm hoping to win enough on the premium bonds to get a compliant car, but I'm not holding my breath on that ...

I feel I'd quite like to take a day off, pay my £12.50 and park up outside Sadiq Khan's house with the engine running all day.

I think the Blade Runners are doing a great job and I have a very high iQ .
In France everybody would be a Blade Runner ;at last some people here have the guts and gumption to show people power.
It has zero to do with pollution , is proven that at best the effect is negligible ......it's a disgusting and dishonest cash grab as the dying last gasp of a man who has mismanaged a badly run company called TFL ......I don't care about the money /ULEZ if they made a clean honest statement and said we have fucked up and need money but I don't like being lied to and then the perpetual radio,tv,social media ,hoardings etc etc that constitute human brainwashing..........
To the Mayor of London and TFL every journey matters ........Fuck off with your brainwashing

BenSirAmos · September 2023

I was under the impression that central government told the Mayor to implement ULEZ as a condition of post-covid funding. So why the hate for the Mayor?

The improvement in my lungs since ULEZ came in is proof to me that the effect is significant - it's only negligible if one is selective about which evidence is taken into account.

elstoof · September 2023

BluesLover said:

If reducing air pollution is so important, why aren't they taxing woodburners?

Because they’re already banned in London

BluesLover · September 2023

Didn't know that, thank you.

ewal · September 2023

scrumhalf said:

On the one hand Khan will rake in money ad a result of the ULEZ expansion and on the other hand he'll be getting more from his ever-increasing cut of council tax from the growing number of residents now living in greater London thanks to his plan to cover any available space with blocks of flats. And let's not forget the s106 impositions which will feature the Mayor's name more prominently than the developer's.

More flats means more people on an already uncomfortably overcrowded public transport system. Naturally he will continue to be driven around in his bulletproof limo.

There are too many people in London. Large swathes now resemble East Berlin with crazily dense developments.

Cut emissions? Have fewer people to make them.

Yep, there's lots of people in London because that's where the work and money is. Successive governments for decades have paid nothing more than lip service to decentralisation and do very little to incentivise business to locate elsewhere.

There are huge regional imbalances in the UK economy and no-one appears to be interested in doing anything about it.

Johnnyseven · September 2023

BenSirAmos said:

I was under the impression that central government told the Mayor to implement ULEZ as a condition of post-covid funding. So why the hate for the mayor?

The government also wanted the mayor to extend the congestion charge zone to the north and south circular.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

New expanded London ULEZ zone

Comments