Acoustic guitar pickup woes and advice ...

Lewy · June 2016

Oh and no I never tried the anthem because frankly I'd rather have a UTI than a UST

4114Effects · June 2016

Lewy said:

Oh and no I never tried the anthem because frankly I'd rather have a UTI than a UST

The anthem only uses the UST for the bass frequencies - everything under 250hz I think ... sure you can blend it to full piezo, but I have no idea who in their right mind would want to do that. It's the only system I've used to date that sounds like my guitar but louder. Nothing else I've tried comes close, and I've tried a fair few!

BigMonka · June 2016

I've got the B-band system and really love the output of both the piezo and soundboard transducer. The issue I have is that the model I've got doesn't have a blend control, it just uses a stereo jack (or mono for just the piezo) and I don't have an external way of blending the two signals as using two DIs and 2 mixer channels isn't practical

thomasross20 · June 2016

4114Effects said:

Lewy said:

Oh and no I never tried the anthem because frankly I'd rather have a UTI than a UST

The anthem only uses the UST for the bass frequencies - everything under 250hz I think ... sure you can blend it to full piezo, but I have no idea who in their right mind would want to do that. It's the only system I've used to date that sounds like my guitar but louder. Nothing else I've tried comes close, and I've tried a fair few!

Have you tried the K&K?

You can use the full piezo for loud gigs with serious feedback issues. Great solution IMO but a bit more involved and involves electrics in the guitar, and costs £320 (not a major issue for me but K&K if ok will be £90 or so).

thomasross20 · June 2016

UTI? Damn, I'm forgetting these TLAs.... (three letter acronyms )

4114Effects · June 2016

thomasross20 said:

UTI? Damn, I'm forgetting these TLAs.... (three letter acronyms )

Urinary Tract Infection ... it was a joke to express how much he disliked USTs ...

4114Effects · June 2016

I should try the K&K at some point, but they are very rarely fitted to guitars from the factory, so I can't just go to a music shop to try one out.

Lewy · June 2016

My main objections to USTs are:

- They just sound bad for flatpicking: Even with an Aura, they don't work for that style. Yes, the Anthem only uses the UST for bass frequencies but strong rest-stoke bass notes are a big part of that style and USTs just sound brittle and nasty when responding to those.

- Structurally and compromise to the acoustic sound - tone-wise I like bone or fossilised ivory for saddle material. I don't like Tusq. USTs work best with Tusq and can have issues with the other materials. That's game over for me right there, because my acoustics are acoustic-first-and-foremost with plugging in as an occasional necessary evil. I know that a lot of people use them differently - to the point where they even plug in when playing at home, and so this point may be moot for them.

crunchman · June 2016

For those talking about the plugging in of the K&K Pure Mini I have it in one of my guitars. I've gone direct to the PA with just an Orchid DI Box and it works fine. Soundwise it's a lot better than the Fishman "Sonitone" undersaddle in a budget Martin I've got, and it's not as good as the Fishman Ellipse Blend in my good Martin. It's a lot cheaper than the blender and it doesn't have all the hassle with batteries.

I've had a couple of Fishman Rare Earths in the past and I really didn't like them. I did like a Rare Earth Blend that I tried briefly - that may be the best sounding acoustic pickup I've played. The mic adds the top end detail that the magnetic misses, and you don't have the Piezo quack.

For me, a blender of some kind is the best sound, but they cost a lot, add a lot of weight, and you have all the hassle of batteries. For 90% of the performance with zero hassle the K&K is the best I've found.

thomasross20 · June 2016

That's it. I'm ordering the k&k .
Not sure about super glueing it in myself lol..
Great thread this!

I'm going to leave off getting a strap pin fitted.

However I think I'll need to get the end hole enlarged for the jack...

Somebody may already have mentioned but it looks like the Larrivee end pin is the same size as the jack for the K&K (1/2") so no drilling required!

http://www.larrivee.com/shop/strap-and-end-pin-set-chrome-set

ICBM · June 2016

Give me a shout if you need professional help. I've done a couple of K&K installations before, and literally hundreds of other pickups, almost all with endpin jacks. Fitting acoustics with a simple UST or contact pickup (sometimes with an endpin-mounted preamp and a battery holder on the neck block) was a bread-and-butter job all through the 90s before Taylor took over the market, and companies like Martin started playing catch-up. Before that the best acoustics you could get with really decent electrics were Takamines.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Will do

I'm waiting to see if I can get one cheap on eBay first lol.
Larrivee themselves have suggested a Baggs icut-no mix...

thomasross20 · June 2016

I'm still confused as to what my signal chain should look like... here's what I think it should be:

Guitar -> Pre-amp -> pedals -> PA

OR....

Guitar -> DI -> PA

I need some sort of buffer between the high o/p impedance of the pickup and the lower input impedance of the pedals... so I can either go straight to DI and PA, doing all EQ etc on the PA....

Or... I can have some sort of pre-amp / buffer which I can do some EQ on, then go into pedals (tuner etc) and then the PA?

I guess the question is.... DI or pre-amp?

ICBM · June 2016

Ideally you need a DI even if you use a preamp - you want to send the PA a balanced (XLR/mic lead type) signal, to get the best sound and lowest noise. You *can* use a 1/4" connection if it's an old-fashioned mixer amp or a mixing desk on stage with 1/4" inputs, but its not ideal.

That means even that if you use a preamp with a DI output, and you want to use pedals as well, then ideally you still need a separate DI after the pedals - unless the preamp has an FX loop, which the Baggs Para DI and the Fishman Aura (full model) both do, for example.

thomasross20 · June 2016

So a DI is going to be a necessity... I can simply get that £25 Orchid Electronics job:

http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/micro.htm

Hoping that any PA I use will be able to supply "phantom" power to it.

I can always tune with a headstock tuner.. and assuming any PA can give me a touch of reverb in addition to the usual EQ, I'm thinking I can get away with just this K&K pickup and that £25 DI box.. Thanks for your wisdom, as ever!

crunchman · June 2016

thomasross20 said:

So a DI is going to be a necessity... I can simply get that £25 Orchid Electronics job:
http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/micro.htm

Hoping that any PA I use will be able to supply "phantom" power to it.

I can always tune with a headstock tuner.. and assuming any PA can give me a touch of reverb in addition to the usual EQ, I'm thinking I can get away with just this K&K pickup and that £25 DI box.. Thanks for your wisdom, as ever!

If you want to play it safe on whether a PA has phantom power get the Orchid Classic DI. I think it's around a tenner more but you can run it off a battery if you want.

Having said that most PAs will have phantom power.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Good shout 8)

thomasross20 · June 2016

This looks interesting, also:

http://www.fishman.com/products/series/platinum/platinumstage.php

thomasross20 · June 2016

I note the full-blown Fishman has a compressor which must be very handy to even out the volume between fingerpicking & strumming. Costly, though. Sounds great in demos.

Will probably go for an inexpensive Orchid Electronics box though....

More affordable version of the Aura:

http://www.fishman.com/products/series/aura/aurasixteen.php

--> Just bought the Orchid Micro DI for £25.

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/orchid-electronics-di-boxes

thomasross20 · June 2016

I've been reading that guitars with X-bracing, like my Larrivee, can potentially have lower output at the high-E side when using K&K pickups, the solution being to place the transducer closer to the treble side as opposed to between the E & B strings.

I assume nobody has really come across this...

Lewy · June 2016

thomasross20 said:

I've been reading that guitars with X-bracing, like my Larrivee, can potentially have lower output at the high-E side when using K&K pickups, the solution being to place the transducer closer to the treble side as opposed to between the E & B strings.

I assume nobody has really come across this...

Nope. I imagine the vast majority of installations are in X-braced guitars.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Yeah... it'll probably be all ok.

Tempted to move the treble one slightly toward the high E... and the bass one slightly away from the low E (as I've heard it can be a bit bassy)...

Did you fit your own, @Lewy? Mine got delivered yesterday.

Lewy · June 2016

thomasross20 said:

Yeah... it'll probably be all ok.
Tempted to move the treble one slightly toward the high E... and the bass one slightly away from the low E (as I've heard it can be a bit bassy)...
Did you fit your own, @Lewy? Mine got delivered yesterday.

I did fit my own yeah. Recalling now, I think the jig that is supplied with the pickup makes you put the bug under the high E as opposed to between B & E anyway....so that's what I would have done because I followed the instructions closely, and they work fine.

Will put one in my recently acquired Collings OM2H too as soon as I can get round to getting a pro to drill the endpin.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Balls of steel.

I'll have a few practice attempts myself..

ICBM · June 2016

If you're doing it yourself and fitting the endpin jack, a couple of bits of advice…

*Don't* fit the cover on the inside. It's for shielding, but it makes no difference I can tell, and they have a habit of working loose and rattling. Also don't fit the smooth washer on the inside - just the nut and the serrated washer. That will grip the wood better and stop the nut turning.

It can be a bit of a faff to set the inside nut just right so the outside one tightens fully just as it reaches the end of the thread, but it's worth getting right.

Also, connect the unused ring terminal (or both, depending on the jack - some have a second ring contact) to ground, as well - that doubles up the ground connection and makes certain it's reliable. There's nothing you can do about the tip, that's just one contact, but at least doubling up the ground roughly halves the chance of failure. The tip connection should be the shortest pin.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Hey! Sorry I'm only replying now, was at band practice.

Hmm... I'll take that advice thanks, and also read the instructions that came with it... if I think it's not something I'll do, I'll get in touch!

thomasross20 · July 2016

Jesus, I'm just waiting 10 mins for the glue to set in on the first one (installing the K&K Pure Mini). I placed it under the high E string as recommended in the latest instructions. Tell you, I had about 3 practice runs.... but nothing prepares you for the moment that glue goes on and starts running everywhere, hoping to high heavens you've put it in the correct spot....

Thumbs up to Larrivee for having a 1/2" end pin socket... no drilling required. However just my luck, I didn't have the correct Allen Key to loosen it up. Quick message to @ICBM and I got it loose with pliers and a cloth.

Just hope I put "enough" glue on the pickup as they suggest. Two to go.... then the end pin... going to be a long night lol...

thomasross20 · July 2016

Sh!t I think I should have angled it.

See p13 here...

http://kksound.com/pdf/puremini.pdf

I never angled it, so it's more likely to hit the X-bracing. Sheeee-ite!! I'll see what it's like when done, might be ok...

EDIT - second one in now... (haha, live action feed!!) - fingers covered in superglue. For a second, thought I'd superglued my hand inside the guitar

Lewy · July 2016

thomasross20;1135370" said:
Sh!t I think I should have angled it. See p13 here... http://kksound.com/pdf/puremini.pdf

I never angled it, so it's more likely to hit the X-bracing. Sheeee-ite!! I'll see what it's like when done, might be ok...

EDIT - second one in now... (haha, live action feed!!) - fingers covered in superglue. For a second, thought I'd superglued my hand inside the guitar

Don't worry about angling it, I'm sure it will be fine. The lead is going to be getting pulled down and back away from the brace.

thomasross20 · July 2016

All done now apart from the jack.

TOP TIP: Use the two-sided tape to hold the jig to the sensor, not the putty. I can't get all the putty off. I'm sure it's not a big deal (it's probably inhibiting vibrations a very little amount).

I'll post a pic soon..

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Acoustic guitar pickup woes and advice ...

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