Acoustic guitar pickup woes and advice ...

4114Effects · May 2016

My lovely new guitar comes with the LR Baggs Anthem pickup system, which I've been struggling to get to grips with. The guitar itself is lovely, very full and resonant, with a decent amount of bass thanks to the Cedar Top. Strummed acoustically it's just lovely, really punchy and alive.

I use the guitar mainly in a Church setting - we're a relatively small band - keys, drums, acoustic guitar, bass and a couple of backing singers, so when I'm playing I'm usually driving the songs along with some pretty heavy strumming.

The guitar came fitted with the Anthem system, which is supposed to be one of the best that Baggs make. However ... I'm struggling to make this work live. For starters I have to employ a huge amount of low cut on my Fishman Platinum Pro preamp. If I DI direct to the PA with the on-board dial set to "mic" the amount of low end is stupid and it just sounds wooly and terrible. If I turn the mix all the way back to undersaddle it has that harsh piezo sound which sometimes works well, but if I strum too hard it distorts badly! Once I've done some drastic EQ adjustments on my preamp pedal I can get some nice acoustic tones, but it takes a lot of work.

I've realised that a "nice" sounding acoustic guitar isn't necessarily what works well in a full band setting - maybe I've got used to the sound and feel of the piezo systems on my other acoustics, which seemed to cut through and work better in a band context. The subtlety of the mic system soon gets lost and falls to pieces a bit when I start strumming a bit harder.

So a couple of questions -
1. Given that this is an expensive flagship pickup system, is it possible it's been fitted wrongly to my guitar? I'm half thinking of taking the guitar back for them to have a look at. I was expecting to just be able to plug in and get a nice acoustic tone without all this work. None of my other piezo equipped guitars distort when I strum them.

2. If it is working correctly, do you reckon it's just not the pickup system for me? Maybe the anthem is more suited to laid back intimate James Taylor sort of fngerstyle stuff, not aggressive strumming in a full band?

3. Think I might be better with something like the M1a active soundhole? I know it won't sound like a pure acoustic but it might work better for the things I'm doing.

4. Anyone else have an anthem that has had similar issues?

Any advice greatly appreciated as I'm getting frustrated here. I was getting a better live sound with my £400 piezo equipped guitar than with my lovely new £1600 hand made instrument and it's driving me crazy.

ICBM · May 2016

I'm not actually familiar with either the Anthem in detail (I've heard one in a guitar, but never worked on one) or the Fishman Platinium Pro, but I would start by saying that all electro-acoustics are the work of Satan there may be some sort of mismatch between them.

I generally find systems like this work best when kept to a single manufacturer - that way there is a much better chance that they've been tested together and there are no unexpected problems with levels or frequency balance. Going direct to the PA without a preamp doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a representative sound either.

I also find onboard mics more of a curse than a blessing to he honest - they almost always cause more problems with feedback and low-end boominess than they fix by sounding more 'natural'.

It is also possible that the system has been fitted wrongly, or that it's faulty - unfortunately this isn't too uncommon, and generally fixing them is a major problem unless you can simply substitute another onboard preamp, they are not usually easy to work on and many use multi-layer construction and surface-mount parts.

I have to say that electro-acoustics are one of the major banes of my life as a repairer and that is one of the main reasons I use a passive undersaddle transducer and an outboard Fishman Aura preamp on my acoustic...

4114Effects · May 2016

Thanks @ICBM

I actually bought the platinum pro outboard preamp to try and combat the issues I was having with the pickup, which it has to a certain extent. I'm just not sure I want to go through that amount of fiddling at every different venue.

Any experience with the LR Baggs M1a? I'm considering returning the Platinum which I only bought last week and getting one of those instead. I'm not massively fussed about how natural or lifelike the acoustic sounds, as long as it sounds good on stage and as part of the band. I'll be adding a little reverb and compression / delay anyway as I like to use a few effects for my live acoustic sound.

ICBM · May 2016

4114Effects said:
Any experience with the LR Baggs M1a? I'm considering returning the Platinum which I only bought last week and getting one of those instead. I'm not massively fussed about how natural or lifelike the acoustic sounds, as long as it sounds good on stage and as part of the band. I'll be adding a little reverb and compression / delay anyway as I like to use a few effects for my live acoustic sound.

Yes, it's very good. To me it sounds a bit grittier and more characterful than the Fishman Rare Earth, and possibly a little more natural but is more prone to feedback, because it has a body movement sensor. The Fishman is very hi-fi and can sound a bit sterile.

Both of them work better in a band mix than the 'nicer' systems with a mic that are trying to sound like a natural acoustic guitar.

Wolfetone · May 2016

I have a B-Band on my Tanglewood and it never really sounded a good representation of the guitar itself until I removed the undersaddle and fitted a B-Band body transducer;

This transformed the sound completely. I also play in a very echoey church with no feedback issues whatsoever. All's good!

In your case, it looks as if you can't get a better preamp if the blurb is to be believed. Could there be a problem with the venue itself? Have you tried it anywhere else?

crunchman · May 2016

I have a blend pickup on a Martin I use in church. It's Fishman rather than Baggs but it's the best sounding pickup I have used. The K&K Pure Mini is the next best. I had a Fishman Rare Earth in couple of guitars in days gone by and I didn't like it - the blender and the K&K, and even a plain piezo undersaddle sounded better to my ears. Maybe the Baggs magnetic is better than the Fishman one.

With blenders you do need the mix to be about 75% piezo and only 25% mic. The guts of the sound still comes from the piezo, and you add a little bit of mic to make it sound a bit more real and tame the piezo quack. If you add more mic than that it will sound woofy and will be very feedback prone as well.

mgaw · May 2016

K&K works for many with a decent outboard pre amp...headway edb1/2 can be had cheapish and are excellent...i also thought the Anthem was meant to be excellent too....i would get it checked out as i know the placement of it is pretty important.

TBH if you are strumming away in a band i wouldnt have thought the finer points of your acoustics tone is really going to matter..soundhole pickup would be a simple solution though a compromise....

4114Effects · May 2016

Yeah I'm beginning to think the anthem has been installed wrong.

From reading various forums it's intended to sound best dialled 75% mic 25% pickup or even 100% mic. The system has a built in crossover - the under saddle pickup is only supposed to handle everything below 250hz and the mic everything above.

When I dial it towards mic it's got so much bass it's unusable without severe EQ. Which doesn't make any sense.

If I dial it towards pickup it sounds like the familiar piezo I'm used to, but it has a horrible bzzzzt distortion if I strum it too hard.

Bah.

mgaw · May 2016

sounds like its either been badly fitted or has a problem...seems strange that both elements have an isuue..

Lewy · May 2016

Post about it on the LR Baggs forum too. Their support guy (Caleb) is very responsive on there and will help you troubleshoot whether it is an installation issue or not.

maltingsaudio · May 2016

CHANGE THE BATTERY

4114Effects · May 2016

maltingsaudio said:

CHANGE THE BATTERY

THE BATTERY IS FINE.

maltingsaudio · May 2016

4114Effects said:

maltingsaudio said:

CHANGE THE BATTERY

THE BATTERY IS FINE. :

Are yu sure? As its new the same battery has been in it since it was made worth replacing it and seeing if it makes a difference

4114Effects · May 2016

maltingsaudio said:

4114Effects said:

maltingsaudio said:

CHANGE THE BATTERY

THE BATTERY IS FINE. :

Are yu sure? As its new the same battery has been in it since it was made worth replacing it and seeing if it makes a difference

It's got a battery level indicator on it. Shows full 5 green lights.

maltingsaudio · May 2016

Still wouldn't trust it, but hey your call

alcxam · May 2016

I've never used an internal mic on an acoustic that was worth the effort... who ever thought that micing the *inside* of a resonant box was going to sound natural or good??? As noted previously, just a litle of it mixed into the piezo signal will slightly lessen the 'quack', but it's not a replacement for an external mic by any means.
The position of the internal mic will have a massive bearing on the sounds it will produce - most I've seen are on a flexible neck so you can play with the positioning to get the 'best' sound.

thomasross20 · May 2016

I'll read this thread later as I was strongly considering a Baggs system for my Larrivee.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Baggs lyric is the best sounding but mic not meant to be great for feedback.

Tried an element. Was good though not as good as the m1 which is feedback resistant. Neither as good as the lyric, sound-wise.

It's been about a year and I STILL debate whether or not to get something fitted... or get another pre-fitted acoustic.... or just mic up if I EVER use acoustic live (never have done to date)

thomasross20 · June 2016

Think if I went for something it'd be an m1/m80 as more feedback resistant. Even then, wouldn't be sure where to get holes drilled to widen the jack hole and to add a strap button..

thomasross20 · June 2016

The m80 is active AND passive (option) and I think I'd prefer active straight into PA. No need for pre-amp... keep it simple

thomasross20 · June 2016

Anybody tried m80 vs m1a? M80 meant to be less feedback resistant yet more acoustic-like (seems to be the general trend)

ICBM · June 2016

Just buy the PRS Hollowbody with piezo and be done with it

.

It's still there, and still the same price...

thomasross20 · June 2016

thomasross20 · June 2016

Eh, my post never "posted"?

Summary: I'm trying to minimise gear and maximise play time (my suhr is back in the ads).

How are you? The band?
Should meet up some point (Edinburgh meet, folks?). Great weather right now

4114Effects · June 2016

@thomasross20 just an update ... I emailed the very helpful guys at LR Baggs who were quick to reply and talked me through fault finding the pickup install. Turns out the installer had forgotten to add one clip - which anchors the element UST next to the bridge entry hole.

They sent some clips over, took me 10 mins to clilp the cable down and now it sounds lovely. Most natural acoustic amplified sound I've ever had.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Wow, so such a small thing made a huge difference!!

I'm still undecided as to what system to go for. What others did you try?

Do you still have feedback problems?

thomasross20 · June 2016

The more I look into this, it boils down to these:

1) M1 or M80.

I'd only use a passive soundhole pup as I think they sound better. Plus no battery worries.

--> Some sort of DI box is a must.

--> Not sure if the DI / EQ control should be integrated onto the guitar (under the sound hole?) or as a separate box... and if it shuold be XLR or just regular cable...

2) Baggs Anthem

This is meant to sound great, better than the Lyric. Still... it's a mic. And I've heard it can fall off if not attached properly.

3) K&K Pure Mini.

Passive and non-invasive (invisible unlike sound hole pup). Though you do have to SUPERGLUE the contacts in !!

Supposed to be a bit bassy so you need to EQ it. Apparently it's more feedback prone in loud settings than a sound-hole pup.

Tempted to get 1 & 3 and do a blend!

As for DI... I'd probably go for K&K if I got the Pure Mini... or Para DI or Red Eye if I got a Baggs system.

ICBM · June 2016

thomasross20 said:
Tempted to get 1 & 3 and do a blend!

A blend will only work with a stereo cable and an outboard mixer, if you don't want to put the whole system in the guitar - you can't combine a magnetic and a piezo otherwise, their impedances are too different.

It does sound really good though - for a while I had a Taylor with a Fishman piezo system (pre-Expression) that I added a Rare Earth pickup to, mainly for using effects including distortion, but the plain clean mixed sound was much better than either pickup alone too.

thomasross20 · June 2016

No sound clips I'm assuming.. ?

Totting up the cost of all this... it's like £250-500. I need to be sure I'm going to play this thing live first.

ICBM · June 2016

In that case by far the best idea is just getting a second hand soundhole pickup. Much cheaper, and doesn't need to be fitted permanently if you don't want to.

I think I have a recording of the Taylor somewhere, I'll have a look.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Thanks!
Maybe a Seymour Duncan Woody or similar to start off with..

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Acoustic guitar pickup woes and advice ...

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