Acoustic guitar pickup woes and advice ...

ICBM · June 2016

thomasross20 said:
Maybe a Seymour Duncan Woody

Don't bother. You're paying for the name and they're really not very good… I've had a couple of them, the plain single coil and the posh humbucking one with adjustable polepieces - both were quite low in output, poor signal-to-noise ratio and not very good string balance. They do look nice though

.

The cheap Artec ones or similar are at least as good and cost less.

4114Effects · June 2016

I'll echo that. Buying a woody would just put you off soundhole pickups full stop.

I was digging around my parts box this weekend and found a Shadow SH141 active soundhole pickup. Pretty decent sounding I seem to remember. Might shove it up for sale as it won't fit my travel guitar.

thomasross20 · June 2016

OK, no woody for me lol..

SRich · June 2016

I've had a Woody for ages...........

........ok ok. I bought one off've the Bay a few years back and couldn't get the thing to work to any discernible output.

ICBM · June 2016

SRich said:

I've had a Woody for ages...........

........ok ok. I bought one off've the Bay a few years back and couldn't get the thing to work to any discernible output.

You do know they don't work on classical guitars, right?

Yes, I really have had two or three customers bring 'faulty' pickups back for that exact problem over the years…

The Woody seems to be very height-sensitive, which doesn't help when it doesn't really have any proper way of adjusting that. It's crap, basically.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Tried a whole bunch of pickup systems today:

Baggs i-beam: didn't like this. Sounded not so good.

Baggs element: better....

Baggs M1: better still....

Baggs Anthem: woah baby, very cool how you can control the blend, so if you're doing a small gig you can select full-on mic else you can choose the other option (pieze? I forget...)

Fishman Matrix was recommended to me at one store.

I checked out that PRS Hollowbody II - very cool!

The best sounding was the ES2 system in a Taylor 814 I played. Seriously good.

However you can't buy those.

Completely put off sound-hole pickups - too big and obtrusive, I don't care how feedback resistant they are.

Looks like the Anthem is top of the pops... it's what Lowden put in their guitars, apparently?

I also tried Lowdens, Bourgeois, Martins, Taylors, a lot of high end guitars but none could beat my Larrivee.

Tried Larrivee parlour guitars which were great but 12-fret acoustics aren't for me.

Much prefer mahogany to rosewood for acoustics, I think.

Still tempted by K&K Pure Mini, and there's the Fishman recommendation (same as ICBM say) to check out. But I like the idea of the Anthem... stay tuned...

Also, I'm not keen on strap buttons. Think I'd play sitting down.

4114Effects · June 2016

Now I have my anthem set up right it's the best system I've ever used. I blend to 90% mic and 10% piezo. Massively better than any piezo or magnetic and no unsightly black plastic box on the side of the guitar.

Just sounds like my guitar but louder. None of that artificial piezo zing and weird mid spikes.

4114Effects · June 2016

Might be worth looking at the Lyric too, which is just the mic element of the anthem without the piezo. Much simpler to install.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Think I'd rather have the Anthem with the blend option.

Still..... how feedback resistant is it?

I'm still tempted by the K&K Pure Mini. So simple, unobtrusive etc... have you tried that?

thomasross20 · June 2016

I just saw the price of the Anthem. Close to £500 for the full-blown thing?

Jesus...!!

Seriously tempted to just go for the K&K Mini (£85) and get a DI ...

Though apparently the Anthem is just as, if not more, feedback resistant than the K&K. I note there are different versions of the Anthem, too.

4114Effects · June 2016

Not had a problem with feedback yet. As it's a mic I'm sure it will feedback at very high volumes, but I've not managed to make it happen.

Haven't tried the mini but all the demos I've watched haven't made me want to. Seems very bassy, and a few forum posts I've read seem to agree. Plus once it's super glued in place you're stuck with it. :-)

4114Effects · June 2016

Anthem and anthem SL are the versions. Anthem SL has a fixed blend between the piezo and mic, full anthem has the blend control.

I'm sure you can get the anthem cheaper than that? Around £380 I think?

K&k might be fine with a little bit of external EQ. Needs a preamp or decent DI though as it's passive.

4114Effects · June 2016

https://www.gak.co.uk/en/l.r-baggs-anthem-acoustic-guitar-mic-pickup/42462?gclid=Cj0KEQjwhZm7BRCUyfS6ho2VjOEBEiQAumpGMk8PMzKEBHvck3MAZtgzvKJA7WyPfGLLDpOk2vizi4kaAgyK8P8HAQ

Anthem £329

Anthem SL is about £100 cheaper.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Guy in the shop thought you'd need a good DI with anything, even the Anthem.

I forget - do you still use a DI?

What version do you have?

Large outlay for something I'll be using sparingly, though want to get the best I can at the same time.

4114Effects · June 2016

I do still use a DI as I'm going direct to desk. I use a Fishman platinum pro EQ, although I have to say it's set pretty flat on the EQ. I only use it as a play a few different venues and don't always trust the sound guys to get it right, so I have the EQ controls at my feet. I daresay I could get away with a standard DI.

Other than than I use a couple of reverbs, delays and a compressor. But that's just because I do a lot of ambient and atmospheric playing to fill out a small band, just a standard DI and reverb would actually be fine in most cases.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Oh... a reverb pedal is a good shout.

I never thought I'd need one as my amp has it on it but... I'd need it for acoustic probably.

Silly question but I assume my normal pedals will work on an acoustic (chorus pedal etc)?

So do you have the SL or the higher-end version? Happy with it now?

ICBM · June 2016

thomasross20 said:
Silly question but I assume my normal pedals will work on an acoustic (chorus pedal etc)?

Yes, but best if the guitar has a preamp or you use an outboard one - the input impedance of typical electric guitar pedals is a little low for an un-preamped acoustic pickup (other than a magnetic).

If you want to check out what the Fishman Aura sounds like, try any Aura-equipped Martin, and set the blend to 100% Aura and try to ignore the guitar

. That will show what the modelled sounds are like without the piezo colouring it too much. Normally for live use you would want a bit of the piezo blended in to add a bit of punch, as you would with a normal mic-blend system. Essentially the Aura models an external mic.

I'm glad you've realised that you won't improve on that Larriveé - or at least not easily - saves a lot of trouble

.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Yeah honestly... this guitar should be with me my whole life...

I'll try that with the Aura... I'm sure they're fitted on some models near to me

So I go into a DI and the output of that goes to the pedals, then to desk..?

Para DI or Red Eye look good and would fit on a Pedaltrain 2 (which is what I'm thinking about getting).

4114Effects · June 2016

Go into the pedals and then from them to the DI, then to the desk. I'll send a pic of my setup when I get chance.

I have the full anthem not the SL.

thomasross20 · June 2016

D'oh, read post wrong - been a long day! Thanks, will be cool to see.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Just checked out the FIshman Aura - looks complicated compared to Red Eye / Para DI?

ICBM · June 2016

Yes, it is - or at least the full model is, as well as being much more flexible - and it has a steep and non-intuitive learning curve. But once you've got the hang of it, it does sound better than anything else I've tried as well as being pretty feedback-resistant. The external one works best from a plain passive undersaddle pickup so is fairly non-invasive in the guitar too.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Sorry for the late reply here!! Listened to more demos - it does sound good....

Here's the thing. If I'm going to have this guitar forever, which I likely will... I'd like the best for it.

At the same time, I'm not going to be doing acoustic gigs all that often (at least in the medium-term).

When I do... it wont be with a loud band as the backdrop... it'll maybe be with one other acoustic and a singer, maybe a cajon.

If then Anthem could cope with all that, then great.... though it's pricey and involves batteries in the guitar etc.

I'm going to check out this under-saddle pickup you've mentioned. Failing that, the K&K sounds a winner to me (though I know you don't trust body transducer pickups) - it's really non-invasive other than having to superglue it in (!) - totally passive.. no batteries to worry about... and it's under £100 !!

And I could get some sort of pre-amp (Fishman, Para DI or K&K) to help with EQ...

I've been mulling over this for over a year now.........!! The time to do something about it is close at hand...

thomasross20 · June 2016

Although not featuring the Anthem, this is a good demo of the Fishman vs K&K vs Lyric:

K&K in an OM-02 (my guitar):

Lewy · June 2016

thomasross20 said:

Failing that, the K&K sounds a winner to me (though I know you don't trust body transducer pickups) - it's really non-invasive other than having to superglue it in (!) - totally passive.. no batteries to worry about... and it's under £100 !!
And I could get some sort of pre-amp (Fishman, Para DI or K&K) to help with EQ...

You'll have impedance mismatch issues with the Para DI and Fishman if using it with a K&K, leading to excess bass frequencies and a muffled sound you may or may not be able to EQ your way out of.

The K&K preamps/DIs will obviously be fine, as will the RedEye and any of the very well priced DIs from Orchid Electronics. Or just use pretty much any Boss pedal as a buffer as that works too.

Personally I'm a convert from the Lyric to the K&K Pure Mini. The K&K may only sound 85% as good as the Lyric, but it's many many times easier to use in the typical plugged in scenario imho. I don't think I ever managed to get the Lyric to sound as good as it CAN sound live because it needs such careful EQing to get rid of this weird low mid hump it's got going on. Which is fine if you've got a) time and b) 2 sweepable mids at your disposal, but if you don't have both those things you can have problems.

Most demos of the Pure Mini that are recorded straight to sound card do indeed sound gash, but that's not how they get used generally - there's moving air, and a room, and ambience etc ... realistically in a live setting I think they sound great.

thomasross20 · June 2016

Interesting - you're a K&K convert!

But did you try the Anthem? Supposedly it is a lot better than the Lyric... the blend control is great so you can dial out the mic and just use the UST if feedback is an issue. Apparently (after a LOT of reading!!) it is much more feedback resistant than the K&K (the mic portion!). My reservations are the price and all the electronics, batteries etc.... K&K is simple and I like that.

Did you fit the K&K yourself and superglue the contacts in?

Assuming the K&K doesn't feed back badly, and it gets 80% toward the tone of the guitar itself... the simplicity surely is a massive win for this...

ALso, @Lewy... what pre-amp do YOU use?

I think a DI is fine.... I'd use PA for EQ. So Red Eye would be enough and supposedly they sound the best.

Though you'd think the K&K stuff would be better..

Will check out Orchid Electronics.

thomasross20 · June 2016

£36!?

http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/classic_DI.htm

This is great... I can kit out my acoustic for ~£136... way cheaper than I thought and likely very passable...!

ICBM · June 2016

Careful... for an *un*-preamped pickup in the guitar, an input impedance of 1Mohm - which that Orchid, most other DI boxes and most standard pedals have - isn't really high enough and can result in a poor sound. You really need 10M or better, which a dedicated acoustic preamp should have.

You *can* do this more cheaply and less intrusively than a full-blown multi-source install into the guitar, but you need to make sure you don't go too far the other way or it will sound naff. I think that's possibly the problem with those K&K demos that make it sound muddy.

thomasross20 · June 2016

I checked and the red eye also has 1M input impedance - and folk rave about those...? I get you, though, the bigger the better.

Given I'll only play plugged in 5% of the time, I think this is a good option - supposedly the sound is much better when a di or pre-amp is used. Have you heard a k&k in the flesh?

Tempted to buy now, though not sure if I should install myself or not

Lewy · June 2016

1Mohm is what K&K's own preamps have, and that's the impedance they work best with. Don't ask me why, but it's K&Ks recommendation and just about everybody's user experience including my own.

I've done two K&K installs myself, and used the superglue rather than double sided tape. It's not hard if you take your time, assuming your endpin is already drilled out. That's something I'd always get a pro to do on a good guitar.

I plug into a Boss GE-7, then into a LR Baggs Session DI.

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Acoustic guitar pickup woes and advice ...

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