The cricket thread

iseverynamegone · July 2015

If you have followed England you have to be optimistic over the years.

We bat deep enough to still avoid follow on. Unlikely but certainly possible. 50 for Stokes and Ali. 100 for Buttler and Cook. Top order been collapsing for last 12 months but we have often recovered ( admittedly against lesser bowling)

crunchman · July 2015

Ballance has a real problem. Carbon copy of the way he got out against Boult. At the very least he needs to drop down from 3 so he can come in against a ball that isn't swinging as much. Long term it might be better to send him back to Yorkshire and let him work on his game, and learn to come forward.

Admittedly not all sides have left armers of the quality of Boult, Starc and Johnson but Starc and Boult are likely to be around for several years to come - and Mohamed Amir might be back soon for Pakistan.

Agree there were some poor shots. Lyth doesn't seem to have the discipline he needs at the moment, but given the lack of other options they might be better sticking with him and hoping he learns from it.

They need to bat time tomorrow and wear down the Mitches. Even if they don't make the follow on figure they need them to have lots of overs in their legs to make the second innings easier.

UnclePsychosis · July 2015

Dunno who it was at the ECB who requested that utterly lifeless pitch but there's some fairly hefty karma coming their way if England lose this test.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

Ballance looks like a walking wicket right now. His feet are moving less than Tresco's did when he was out of nick. In 2009 we had Bopara as the walking wicket for the first four Tests, Trott coming in at the Oval and scoring a memorable century.

One wonders how long they will give Ballance and Bell. We can't have 3 of the top 4 in shitty nick.

scrumhalf · July 2015

Well, apart from Cook and Stokes that wasn't what you'd call stout resistance, was it?

Aussies will bat to get a lead of 400-450, or maybe until the drinks interval tomorrow afternoon? I don't think there's any nasty weather on the horizon to disrupt play, some showers around midday here (I'm a few miles north of Lords) but unless we develop a spine to our batting it'll be 1-1 which, to be fair, I would have taken at the start of the series.

Moe-mentum seems to be with the Aussies.

scrumhalf · July 2015

Oh shit.

Lyth - why did you need to nibble at that one? Not evidence of a test match temperament. Goodbye, I think.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

Our options are limited. People on Cricinfo talk about Hales coming in to open for Lyth. This is the same Hales who got tied down by legside deliveries by the mighty Indian seamers in the past. What makes folk think he'd do any better against the Mitchs and Hazlewood?

Should never have gotten rid of Compton.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

Christ...

scrumhalf · July 2015

What a shower of shit. I knew that the Cardiff test was a flase flag, but I never expected this sort of spineless brainless capitulation at home.

To have failed to get past 50 without losing at least 3 wickets in so many innings this year is shocking.

axisus · July 2015

Just looked at the score - FEKKIN pathetic. The England of old are back. They should hang their heads in shame, bunch of amateurs. I am honestly ashamed and glad I don't know any Aussies right now. Honestly, pack up and go home.

camf · July 2015

Ooops! Scotland could do better than this!

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

Getting hammered usually happens in each series we've won. 1st Test at Lords in 2005, pretty convincingly hammered. 4th Test in 2009, lost by an innings. 3rd Test, 2010-11 at the WACA, we were never in the hunt. In each of those defeats, England were undone on a pitch that did offer a bit to the seamers. This pitch is different. The way we have capitulated is different. A combination of fear and weak mental approach has gotten us here.

A big laugh at Andrew Sutherland for this article from 2012.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

Another Bairstow ton today...

iseverynamegone · July 2015

Awful.

scrumhalf · July 2015

Heartfeltdawn said:

Getting hammered usually happens in each series we've won. 1st Test at Lords in 2005, pretty convincingly hammered. 4th Test in 2009, lost by an innings. 3rd Test, 2010-11 at the WACA, we were never in the hunt. In each of those defeats, England were undone on a pitch that did offer a bit to the seamers. This pitch is different. The way we have capitulated is different. A combination of fear and weak mental approach has gotten us here.

A big laugh at Andrew Sutherland for this article from 2012.

Sadly, we've also got hammered and not won the series on the odd occasion too.

I'd get them all in tomorrow and make them bat for 90 overs in the nets. Just so that they know what's expected of them in the future. Such brain-dead batting deserves naughty-boy nets. So many pointless shots, so many pointless dismissals.

rocktron · July 2015

I did not expect the match to finish today.

The pitch is not to blame. There was no intimidating short-pitched bowling where the ball reared up unexpectedly, but there was a lack of application by the batsmen.

I think chasing an intimidating total was the psychological factor against England.

I've never subscribed to wholesale changes, but England has to make at least one change, or reshuffle the batting order by moving the in-form players up the order. Don't forget that this is the same side which won in four days at Cardiff, so thay haven't suddenly become bad players.

This is a major setback, with the momentum now with the Aussies, but England now has to show the same fighting spirit the Aussies showed, in the next Test.

The groundsmen have to produce a "true pitch", and not one which would help the seamers, because we have been vulnerable to the Aussie quicks.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

scrumhalf said:
Sadly, we've also got hammered and not won the series on the odd occasion too.

I'd get them all in tomorrow and make them bat for 90 overs in the nets. Just so that they know what's expected of them in the future. Such brain-dead batting deserves naughty-boy nets. So many pointless shots, so many pointless dismissals.

Oh, absolutely. It's more the point that even our series victories against Australia have a Test where we fuck up enormously. Naughty boy nets would be completely worthless. They're not going to be in those nets facing 90mph left arm quick bowlers. Sending them in for nets would be a throwback to the bad old days of 1989 (and in 1989 we'd have been overjoyed going into the Third Test at 1-1).

octatonic · July 2015

He. He. He.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

rocktron said:
I've never subscribed to wholesale changes, but England has to make at least one change, or reshuffle the batting order by moving the in-form players up the order. Don't forget that this is the same side which won in four days at Cardiff, so thay haven't suddenly become bad players.

Neither have I but we need to make changes. Shifting the in-form players up in the order doesn't help because we've got a lot of people out of form. Ballance, Bell, and Lyth collectively average 18.41 between them. In 12 innings, those three have contributed 221 runs, only 6 more than Steve Smith scored in the first innings at Lords. The seamers too need to be looked at. Collectively Wood, Anderson, and Stokes average 70.44 (634 runs, 9 wickets. Jimmy@71, Wood@50, Stokes at 171). Back at the start of the West Indies series, people were talking about Stuart Broad being finished: he's bowled very well in these two Tests. Stokes clearly had a bit of a twinge in the first innings batting. It may well be that he may play as a batsman only in the next Test.

Do you eject people now or give them a chance this series and then make changes after it's all over?

axisus · July 2015

You win some you lose some, but the problem is the total collapse. It's like England football team losing 10-0

UnclePsychosis · July 2015

Just as well they hadn't prepared a lifeless pitch that was impossible to take wickets on or else that could have been really embarrassing for England.

For once I actually agree with Boycott---I just do not believe Cook when he says they didn't ask for that pitch. The groundsmen at Lords know what they're doing, they wouldn't have done that by mistake.

Sarge · July 2015

Bell, ballance, lythe, and cook should all hang their heads in shame, can't take away from the Australians, superb all round.
But... Anderson is one of the best bowlers in world cricket, couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo this test!

UnclePsychosis · July 2015

England's problem is that they don't really have any realistic replacements. They need at least two batsmen (including an opener), a spinner, and a new captain. Hard to see where any of those actually come from.

crunchman · July 2015

Agreed they need an opener and a spinner but I'm not sure we have any better options at the moment.

They also need to get Bairstow in. He's averaging over 100 at the moment in county cricket. The problem is that he's another guy who would probably slot in better at 5, and the problems are Lyth, Ballance and Bell at 2, 3, and 4.

There are no openers doing much in county cricket at the moment. Robson wasn't impressive when he was in the side. Carberry and Compton would be a backward step at this point in time. Neither of them is setting county cricket alight at the moment either. They are both averaging around 39. Westley is averaging 57 at Essex but that's in division 2. Lyth is probably the best we have at the moment. He scored a century against NZ so he has potential if he can tighten up his game a bit.

In the short term I think have to leave out Ballance. He just looks like a walking wicket. He might do better if you moved him down to 5, but I think you have to get Bairstow in. You bring Root or Bell up to 3, and slot Bairstow in at 5.

On the spin bowling front I don't know what you do. Panesar is a complete mess. Essex aren't even selecting him for their seconds. Rashid would be better than Moeen in some ways, but he chucks in a good selection of long hops and full tosses. Even in county cricket he often goes at 4 or 5 an over. If you could rely on Root to bowl 4 or 5 reasonably tight overs to give the quicks a rest then Rashid might be better option. There are one or two youngsters around but looking at what happened to Kerrigan I wouldn't be chucking them in the deep end.

To be honest, to be successful we need our fast bowlers to take wickets - and as @Heartfeltdawn pointed out above they aren't. Again, the problem is that I'm not sure there is anyone better in county cricket. Wood doesn't seem to be able to play 2 tests back to back at the moment. They probably would have been better off playing Finn at Lords. Footitt might be worth a look, but I think they are marginal calls. I don't think they will bring a massive improvement.

The big worry for me is the form of Anderson and Broad. Anderson doesn't look penetrating at the moment. I know there were drops off him, but he hasn't looked all that dangerous. He still cranks the odd ball up to 86mph so he still seems to be ok physically, but he didn't seem to be swinging it as much as the Aussies were. I don't know if there is something awry with him.

Broad was our best bowler, but at the start of the Aussie second innings he was around 78mph. I saw one delivery clocked at 76mph. If you had had a tall bowler like Finn getting bounce at 86 to 88 mph would it have made a difference?

You would be very brave to drop either of them at this point, and I don't think we have anyone better to bring in.

For me you bring in Bairstow for Ballance, and rearrange the batting order. Ali/Rashid is a 50/50 call. You may need to make a decision about whether Wood is better suited for Edgbaston or Trent Bridge and just play him in one of the two matches as he doesn't seem to be able to do back to back matches.

scrumhalf · July 2015

I wondered if I was the only one thinking Anderson was off his game a bit. I noticed before one of the early session for the last Test that he was moving very awkwardly as the tean went in to field.

Spinnier - If not Rashid then maybe James Treadwell. He's no spin demon but he can hold up an end for a while.

As for the batsmen, I fear that an exces on one-day cricket has meant that they no judge which ball can be left and which needs to be played. In a situation where occupation of the crease is of paramount importance we had too many batsmen playing at balls that didn't need to be played. If it's going to hit the stumps it's one thing, but if the stumps aren't threatened, let it go. It's nothing to do with a dead pitch or a lively pitch, it's just basic common sense.

And whilst I agree that naughty-boy nets may not be the best thing, I think an arse-kicking needs to be administered and since they should have been capable of batting for the greater part they should have some practice at it. None of this "oh, we're disappointed" nonsense, practice being there for two-hour spells.

crunchman · July 2015

James Taylor currently 225 not out for Notts. Quite good timing. I like him. Probably behind Bairstow in the queue at the moment, but might be an option.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

UnclePsychosis said:

Just as well they hadn't prepared a lifeless pitch that was impossible to take wickets on or else that could have been really embarrassing for England.

For once I actually agree with Boycott---I just do not believe Cook when he says they didn't ask for that pitch. The groundsmen at Lords know what they're doing, they wouldn't have done that by mistake.

Nobody expected Trent Bridge last year. Would England have really asked for that against India?

Heartfeltdawn · July 2015

crunchman said:

Agreed they need an opener and a spinner but I'm not sure we have any better options at the moment.

They also need to get Bairstow in. He's averaging over 100 at the moment in county cricket. The problem is that he's another guy who would probably slot in better at 5, and the problems are Lyth, Ballance and Bell at 2, 3, and 4.

There are no openers doing much in county cricket at the moment. Robson wasn't impressive when he was in the side. Carberry and Compton would be a backward step at this point in time. Neither of them is setting county cricket alight at the moment either. They are both averaging around 39. Westley is averaging 57 at Essex but that's in division 2. Lyth is probably the best we have at the moment. He scored a century against NZ so he has potential if he can tighten up his game a bit.

In the short term I think have to leave out Ballance. He just looks like a walking wicket. He might do better if you moved him down to 5, but I think you have to get Bairstow in. You bring Root or Bell up to 3, and slot Bairstow in at 5.

On the spin bowling front I don't know what you do. Panesar is a complete mess. Essex aren't even selecting him for their seconds. Rashid would be better than Moeen in some ways, but he chucks in a good selection of long hops and full tosses. Even in county cricket he often goes at 4 or 5 an over. If you could rely on Root to bowl 4 or 5 reasonably tight overs to give the quicks a rest then Rashid might be better option. There are one or two youngsters around but looking at what happened to Kerrigan I wouldn't be chucking them in the deep end.

To be honest, to be successful we need our fast bowlers to take wickets - and as @Heartfeltdawn pointed out above they aren't. Again, the problem is that I'm not sure there is anyone better in county cricket. Wood doesn't seem to be able to play 2 tests back to back at the moment. They probably would have been better off playing Finn at Lords. Footitt might be worth a look, but I think they are marginal calls. I don't think they will bring a massive improvement.

The big worry for me is the form of Anderson and Broad. Anderson doesn't look penetrating at the moment. I know there were drops off him, but he hasn't looked all that dangerous. He still cranks the odd ball up to 86mph so he still seems to be ok physically, but he didn't seem to be swinging it as much as the Aussies were. I don't know if there is something awry with him.

Broad was our best bowler, but at the start of the Aussie second innings he was around 78mph. I saw one delivery clocked at 76mph. If you had had a tall bowler like Finn getting bounce at 86 to 88 mph would it have made a difference?

You would be very brave to drop either of them at this point, and I don't think we have anyone better to bring in.

For me you bring in Bairstow for Ballance, and rearrange the batting order. Ali/Rashid is a 50/50 call. You may need to make a decision about whether Wood is better suited for Edgbaston or Trent Bridge and just play him in one of the two matches as he doesn't seem to be able to do back to back matches.

If you look at the CC averages, you've got a lot of openers averaging fairly poor numbers for their ability and a lot of good spinners going for high averages. That shouldn't surprise anyone when you look at how much CC cricket is played in the early part of the season. Why? For this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/english-one-day/fixtures

My county, Somerset, are playing one CC game in August. That is the time when opening batsmen should be learning to bat for long periods of time on good wickets. It's the time when spinners learn to bowl long spells on harder wickets in the first innings and how to use the rough in the second innings. It's also when seamers learn how to bowl on wickets that don't give them much seam movement and when they learn how to utilize reverse swing.

In 2005 in Division 1, Warwickshire played five Championship games in August. The entire fixture list back then looks so much different to now. When it changed in the past, it produced Test cricketers capable of beating a great Aussie side in 2005. The County Championship was a hard aggressive competition. The Kolpak players were of a good quality, we had good overseas players like Hussey playing in the domestic game. The push to bring in younger English-qualified players simply hasn't worked.

County cricket needs to be restructured. From the competition formats to the pitches we play on to the reliance by some counties on private schools to produce their squad members whilst some of those counties sit on their arse regarding a decent scouting system rather than word of mouth/who you know getting you a chance with a 2nd XI).

camf · July 2015

Enjoying some serious, thoughtful and informed cricket reflection on this thread.

Thanks!

crunchman · July 2015

What wazzock set that competition up with only 2 groups?

If they split it into 4 groups they could halve the number of group fixtures. If you went back to the old format for the T20 where it's all in a block in the middle of the season with 10 group matches instead of 14 then you could fit the championship matches in without starting at the beginning of April.

I read a piece that Struass wants to reduce the county championship to 10 games.

The problem is that the counties won't cut the number of one day games.

I think you need a couple of the weaker counties to go bust and reduce it to 16 teams.

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