The cricket thread

Heartfeltdawn · August 2018

And things like be even more nutzoid next year with the World Cup acting as the warm-up to the Ashes.

Stuckfast · August 2018

Really pleased to see Moeen get his five-for today, he should have been in the team all along. Nice to see Broad bowl quite well for a change too.

If we can actually get some runs in our second innings then two spinners could be a handy pick by day four.

Gassage · September 2018

By the way, for those that remember the sound the fighting machine 'heat ray' made in War of the Worlds musical. every time the Indian seamer Jasprit B runs in Alistair and I shout "BOOOOMRAH" to the tune of World of the Worlds heat ray bit.

I just had to share it with someone musical....so you guys are it! Apologies for my immaturity.

(7.43 on here)

Gassage · September 2018

Oh and, really worth revisting that album for Chris Spedding's brilliant playing on it!

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

Gassage said:

By the way, for those that remember the sound the fighting machine 'heat ray' made in War of the Worlds musical. every time the Indian seamer Jasprit B runs in Alistair and I shout "BOOOOMRAH" to the tune of World of the Worlds heat ray bit.

It makes me think of Nigel Planer saying Boomshanka.

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

As bad as the Jennings dismissal in the first innings was, Bairstow's in the second innings isn't much better.

scrumhalf · September 2018

Heartfeltdawn said:

As bad as the Jennings dismissal in the first innings was, Bairstow's in the second innings isn't much better.

That was a shocker.

sixstringsupplies · September 2018

think England will win from here - can see India crumbling over the pressure of a run chase to stay in the series. 250 to be safe...

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

The Yorkshire boys get the boot into a fellow flatcapper...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/45385758

So YJB first. If he really is sulking about not having the gloves, then it makes Joe Root's comments before the Test about England not having a first choice keeper all the more interesting as it could be construed as a public admonishment in a rather passive-aggressive manner.

Sir Geoffrey's assertion that he's a number 7 at Test level: not exactly born out by stats. Batting at 7 he averages 41 against a career average of 37. This average at 7 is helped by not not scores (in 100 innings overall he has 6 red inkers: in 36 innings at 7, he has four).

The thing to look for is his batting under Cook compared to Root: an average of 46 over 15 Tests compared to 34 over 9 when batting at 7. You then compare this to his performance when batting between 1 and 6. Under Cook he averages just under 40 over 22 Tests whereas in 12 Tests under Root he averages 30. Those figures suggest that he can bat top 6 effectively and did so for the previous captain. It is interesting to look at JYB's first match under Cook when batting in the top six. Of that side from 2012, only Cook and Bairstow remain from that top six. It'll be six years since that game, Cook and Compton opening, and we're still looking for a consistent opening pair.

So I think JYB can play in the top six. It feels dreadfully conservative by the Yorkshire lot to say he can't. If he can handle a white ball in 50 over cricket, then he should be able to handle a red one that's a few overs older.

The next topic of fun comes the consistent excellent Andrew Fidel Fernando, hands down the best cricket journo this year not called Gassage (his piece on Lasith Malinga earlier this year for WCM is superb and you should all read it). Fernando writes on the 1998 one-off England-Sri Lanka Test where Murali turned it square. One passage shows the difference between then and now:

http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/1156553/-the-next-time-we-visited-england--they-were-giving-us-three-test-series

"Clearly eager to prove themselves in England, and in the longest format, Sri Lanka had undertaken a long build-up to the Test, playing no fewer than five multi-day matches against counties. By the time the Test rolled around, they had big wins under their belt and had substantial confidence in their game.

Mahela Jayawardene, Sri Lanka batsman: There was basically a county tour for us. That was part of our preparation those days - playing as many four-day games as possible. Some of the county teams were very strong teams. But when we got to the Test, it was in the latter part of the summer, and that probably helped us because the wickets were flat. The England camp wasn't very happy."

By contrast, India this summer had three T20 games, three 50 over ODI games, and a three-day practice match.

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

And now this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/45359234

"Clarke's second year in first-class cricket, 2016, was stellar containing six centuries. Since then, his average has regressed to around 40 - a mark which England coach Trevor Bayliss says does not suggest success at Test level."

On what basis? I know Marcus Trescothick was averaging well under 40 when he made his Test bow and I have a suspicion Vaughan was as well. It seems almost perverse that a guy averaging 41 as CLarke is now over several seasons is considered to be a likely Test failure yet a guy in his first proper season in the form of Ollie Pope gets the fast track treatment.

The more of these small comments come out, the more Bayliss looks like a man shouting "Twist" despite going bust ages ago.

scrumhalf · September 2018

It's possible that being good at county cricket indicates nothing more than being good at county cricket.

Now that the County Championship is at best an afterthought on the cricket calendar the intestinal fortitude required for test matches has to be ascertained in part by a guess.

The cynic in me thinks that Bayliss is softening us up before next year's Ashes.

Legionreturns · September 2018

Well that was unexpected! Yes, the batting performances are worrying...but the bowling unit continues to win matches for us!

Lest we forget this is the number 1 ranked test side we've just beaten.

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

scrumhalf said:

It's possible that being good at county cricket indicates nothing more than being good at county cricket.

Now that the County Championship is at best an afterthought on the cricket calendar the intestinal fortitude required for test matches has to be ascertained in part by a guess.

The cynic in me thinks that Bayliss is softening us up before next year's Ashes.

Quite possibly. It just seems peculiar that Clarke can be disregarded for consistent scoring as a young man yet Pope can be elevated. We also have Keaton Jennings given a second chance with a first class average of 34...

Legionreturns said:

Lest we forget this is the number 1 ranked test side we've just beaten.

Yep. A side ranked number one that has made 350 once and four Test matches have lasted less than 14 days in total. An exciting but low quality series.

The overall series bowling strike rates are mental, even more so when you consider how many catches have been grassed.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=12033;type=series

Legionreturns · September 2018

6 bowlers in the series have got five fer! That's fairly indicative

sixstringsupplies · September 2018

I always enjoy the post match analysis. On Sky they are talking about who takes the gloves next match? who bats at 3? Does Woakes play if he is fit? Possibly drop Rashid and just play Moeen Ali as the spinner?

It has been an enjoyable series. But it does highlight the dearth of test match batting. Makes you worry about the test game and where it will be in the next 5 years.

Teetonetal · September 2018

I think the bowling from both sides has been pretty good, the batsman haven't found consistent answers on either side, so close but low scoring.

Stuckfast · September 2018

Surely these conditions should have been tailor made for Rashid -- last innings on a very worn pitch, lots of right-handers to bowl at -- and yet he was comprehensively outbowled by Moeen. If Rashid isn't going to take wickets on a day like today, why is he playing?

Gassage · September 2018

Stuckfast said:

Surely these conditions should have been tailor made for Rashid -- last innings on a very worn pitch, lots of right-handers to bowl at -- and yet he was comprehensively outbowled by Moeen. If Rashid isn't going to take wickets on a day like today, why is he playing?

The wear on the pitch wasn't going to help a leggie like it would an offspinner.

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

Legionreturns said:

6 bowlers in the series have got five fer! That's fairly indicative

Yep, Shite batting. It's when you compare the series strike rates to the Test bowlers with the best strike rates in history.

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

Stuckfast said:

Surely these conditions should have been tailor made for Rashid -- last innings on a very worn pitch, lots of right-handers to bowl at -- and yet he was comprehensively outbowled by Moeen. If Rashid isn't going to take wickets on a day like today, why is he playing?

Nah. Rashid's quite a floaty leg spinner. A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been a challenge as they were leggies who bowled into the wicket more. It's the same with offies. Moeen is a bowl into the wicket kind of offie as was Swann. That works fine on a wicket like Southampton but doesn't work anywhere near as well in Australia. Offies like Ashwin and Lyon bowl more over the top when the deliver the ball and thus get the bounce on Aussie wickets that Moeen didn't show last winter.

A spinning wicket won't necessarily help all spinners. Just ask Tony Lock...

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17417/scorecard/62814/england-vs-australia-4th-test-australia-tour-of-england-1956

iseverynamegone · September 2018

Should we try Stokes at 3? He has proven in quite a few knocks that he can adapt this game when needed and leave good balls and dig in and he can certainly attack should we ever get an opening partnership to see off the new ball. I know he normally bats lower but tbh the way things have gone he is often in when the ball is fairly new.

That said I’d be happy to see them give Moeen a run there.

Beyond Vince is there anywhere else to turn?

scrumhalf · September 2018

When Woakes was getting his ton there was a lot of comment about how conventionally he played, and that he could fill in as an emergency opener with that sort of technique. Maybe put him at 3? Or he is too valuiable coming in at 8 and propping up the failures of others?

I've read a lot about Joe Denly being eyed up as a surprise pick for Sri Lanka -his batting has been okay and his bowling has proved surprisingly valuable. He could fill in at 3. He's not in the first flush of youth, but then neither is Ian Bell. I'd be happy to see Bell picked, he might be able to exert some calm influence on the younger players.

Simon Hughes mentioned something interesting about opening the batting these days. Bowlers can now warm up to their hearts' content on a strip not too far from the one being used. In days gone by they didn't have that luxury afforded to them, which meant that they were warming up as bowlers in the first few overs of their opening spells, giving the opening batsmen time to get their eye in. Now they're on it from the first ball.

On to the final test. Do we pick some fringe/untried players or go for the throat? I'd be tempted to rest Jimmy, Cook might be absent due to imminent sprog arrival and Bairstow might be sent to bed early with no dinner. I think they'd be nuts not to try Rory Burns.

Teetonetal · September 2018

sixstringsupplies said:

I always enjoy the post match analysis. On Sky they are talking about who takes the gloves next match? who bats at 3? Does Woakes play if he is fit? Possibly drop Rashid and just play Moeen Ali as the spinner?

It has been an enjoyable series. But it does highlight the dearth of test match batting. Makes you worry about the test game and where it will be in the next 5 years.

I would drop Rashid. I think if Mooen is on form with the ball, then he is a better bet, Root seems to trust him a lot more.

Mid to Lower order could easily be:

Stokes 5, Bairstow or Butler 6, Ali 7, Woakes 8, Curran 9, Broad 10, Anderson 11

You could potential leave out Curran or Woakes for Bairstow / Buttler, but I like the left arm option of Curran, if he bowls tidily it offers the batsman something else to think about, with unusual angles of delivery etc)

But what to do with Positions 1-4? Root ought to be 4, not 3 . Worth England brining in 3 new batsman for the dead rubber?

Stuckfast · September 2018

Heartfeltdawn said:
Nah. Rashid's quite a floaty leg spinner. A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been a challenge as they were leggies who bowled into the wicket more. It's the same with offies. Moeen is a bowl into the wicket kind of offie as was Swann. That works fine on a wicket like Southampton but doesn't work anywhere near as well in Australia. Offies like Ashwin and Lyon bowl more over the top when the deliver the ball and thus get the bounce on Aussie wickets that Moeen didn't show last winter.

A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been more of a challenge because they were better bowlers! Swann did well on his first tour of Australia and Moeen would've done well too if he'd been in form and not carrying a hand injury. Rashid is a short guy who has a low action, I don't recall seeing him get much bounce on any wicket -- his main weapon is a well disguised googly, but Kohli & co don't seem to be having any trouble picking it and he's not landing the leggie well enough to make it a big threat. Mo was getting plenty of balls to bounce today.

sixstringsupplies · September 2018

Teetonetal said:

I would drop Rashid. I think if Mooen is on form with the ball, then he is a better bet, Root seems to trust him a lot more.

Mid to Lower order could easily be:

Stokes 5, Bairstow or Butler 6, Ali 7, Woakes 8, Curran 9, Broad 10, Anderson 11

You could potential leave out Curran or Woakes for Bairstow / Buttler, but I like the left arm option of Curran, if he bowls tidily it offers the batsman something else to think about, with unusual angles of delivery etc)

But what to do with Positions 1-4? Root ought to be 4, not 3 . Worth England brining in 3 new batsman for the dead rubber?

Yes its amazing how much Joe Root looked like the Joe Root we know when he came in at 4 and not 3.
Same for Moeen - when he is selected as the "second spinner" he seems to thrive off it. Can't handle the pressure of being the number one spinner.

Apparently here is a "major" announcement from the ECB at midday. Potentially Ali Cook's retirement announcement. I hope not...

Anyway, standard English Test summer - paper over the tracks ready for a whipping in Sri Lanka this winter.

Gassage · September 2018

Ali Cook retires.

sad day. Top bloke

Teetonetal · September 2018

Sad, India and aus away wins will be career highlights I'm sure.

Now drop him for the final test and get 2 new openers in!

Gassage · September 2018

Stuckfast said:

Heartfeltdawn said:
Nah. Rashid's quite a floaty leg spinner. A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been a challenge as they were leggies who bowled into the wicket more. It's the same with offies. Moeen is a bowl into the wicket kind of offie as was Swann. That works fine on a wicket like Southampton but doesn't work anywhere near as well in Australia. Offies like Ashwin and Lyon bowl more over the top when the deliver the ball and thus get the bounce on Aussie wickets that Moeen didn't show last winter.

A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been more of a challenge because they were better bowlers! Swann did well on his first tour of Australia and Moeen would've done well too if he'd been in form and not carrying a hand injury. Rashid is a short guy who has a low action, I don't recall seeing him get much bounce on any wicket -- his main weapon is a well disguised googly, but Kohli & co don't seem to be having any trouble picking it and he's not landing the leggie well enough to make it a big threat. Mo was getting plenty of balls to bounce today.

Afridi a better bowler? On which planet?

sixstringsupplies · September 2018

Teetonetal said:

Sad, India and aus away wins will be career highlights I'm sure.

Now drop him for the final test and get 2 new openers in!

yeah India away was special but the Ashes 10/11 tops it for me.

He most definitely deserves a farewell test. No pressure to perform, probably get a double ton!

Heartfeltdawn · September 2018

Stuckfast said:
A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been more of a challenge because they were better bowlers! Swann did well on his first tour of Australia and Moeen would've done well too if he'd been in form and not carrying a hand injury. Rashid is a short guy who has a low action, I don't recall seeing him get much bounce on any wicket -- his main weapon is a well disguised googly, but Kohli & co don't seem to be having any trouble picking it and he's not landing the leggie well enough to make it a big threat. Mo was getting plenty of balls to bounce today.

It isn't just height per se that gives bounce to a leg break or an off break. Anil Kumble is 1.85m tall, Shahid Afridi 1.82m, and Stuart Macgill 1.83m. The first two were predominately overspin leg break bowlers. MacGill got way more turn than both of the first two because he bowled with a lot more sidespin. The rough rule of thumb.

Overspin = more bounce, less turn.
Sidespin = more turn, less bounce

Simon Hughes did a good piece on side spin versus overspin in the 2005 Ashes with Warne getting Trescothick caught behind. You can clearly see the variation in terms of seam position when released: more subtle and not covered by Hughes is the arm position relative to the perpendicular when released. The delivery Warne bowls with more sidespin has a slightly lower arm than the overspun delivery.

So at the Ageas Bowl you had a wicket close to perfect for an spinner who bowls overspun deliveries. Once the ball grips in the wicket, then you get the natural variations on a worn wicket: odd bounce high and low, massive turn as we saw with some of those LBW shouts against Kohli. As we saw with Rashid, the lower arm and the sidespun deliveries didn't have very much effect. You then look at Ashwin. He's flightier than Moeen and some of the analysis showed that he was having trouble finding the right pace to bowl on the wicket. He's not so much about the overspin at Moeen.

Swann was OK on his first Australia tour but still averaged 40 against a less than stellar Aussie side as part of a bowling unit that had them for toast. Compare that against the career records of some spin bowlers who played in Australia (photo supplied by one SK Warne):

https://imgur.com/hihh8F7

The lowest average on there is Mushtaq Ahmed. He bowled with a high action and overspin. Consequently this meant he had a ripper googly and a leg break that didn't turn much. Saqlain used overspin. Kumble overspin versus sidespin.

Richie Benaud bowled with a lot of overspin. So he adapted.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/richie-benaud-a-custodian-of-the-art-of-leg-spin-he-put-cricket-in-a-debt-to-him-which-it-will-never-10167478.html

I can also speak from personal experience as someone who was very much an overspinning leg break bowler when he started county youth cricket and managed to flip it around by the time he was 19 to be able to change it depending on the type of wicket.

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