The cricket thread

Gassage · March 2021

crunchman said:

Gassage said:

crunchman said:

They need more restrictions on the bats. You still see mishits going for 6. That's wrong.

40mm at the edges is still too deep. The bats we had when I was young were nowhere near that deep. I just measured my old bat, and it's only around 20mm.

I've seen suggestions of a minimum press on bats, but that would be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce.

The great players will still hit sixes with old style bats, but it will require skill and timing. That makes for a much better game than seeing top edges fly for six.

The volume of the bat makes no difference.

Force= mass x acceleration.

Bats are lighter these days than 25 yrs ago

It's not as simple as that. If a bat is thicker it will be stiffer.

They are more lightly pressed now, so you get less mass but greater stiffness because of the greater thickness.

Incorrect.

Bats, especially Indian bats, are far thinner around the shoulder area than in previous times, which is where the bat will flex most. Also, many players are using long handles and short blades- the longer the handle, the less stiff the bat.

I do agree in principle that having a stiffer handle and shoulder area will assist performance- that's why I have my bats made with super stiff thick handles and big shoulders.

Pressing- again, totally wrong- good pressing is optimised to the cleft in question - pressing a bat lightly will have a negative effect- in simple terms, if the bat is pressed lightly,, the surface will fail plastically. If there's dents from ball impact, then that means energy is being absorbed into the face of the bat. You want to to fail elastically, via case hardening, which means pressing well. If you overpress you'll delaminate the bat face from the bat structure in time.

The reason you can get bigger light bats is the drying process, not the pressing.

The real differences are:

1. Willow is far more regular in growth time and grain structure now and there's a greater supply of good willow as there's more produced.
2. Controlled moisture content via dehumidified kiln drying- people have learned that handles and blades need different moisture content and that 10 per cent in a pro bat or 12 percent in a shop bat is the optimum, with handles at 8%
3. Better knowledge of shapes- as a simple example, you'll rarely see a top class pro using a bat with a low middle. The key part of the shape of the bat is getting the middle as high and deep as possible under the centre of gravity of the bat.
4. Players train to hit the ball - range hitting
5. Players are a lot stronger than they were even 20 yrs ago.
6. Balls are harder, esp in whiteball when there's 2 balls.
7. Faces are pressed MUCH flatter which also aids the optical illusion of greater volume (and gives a thicker edge, admittedly)- it also means players hit straighter generally when playing straight bat shots.

Whichever way you cut it, if swung at the same velocity and assuming similar handle and willow characteristics, a bat of 3lbs from 1985 will hit the ball further than a bat of 2.10 in the modern era- that is simple, basic physics.

crunchman · March 2021

The pressing is important. Modern bats are not pressed as much as bats from years ago. In times past, they were definitely pressed more to give more durability. I've read that several places. Now they are pressed to give optimum power at the expense of durability.

I think I remember reading that Denis Compton used the same bat for the whole season in 1947, when he set the record for the number of runs in a year. Modern bats just do not last that long. Google tells me that David Warner went through 47 bats in a season.

This picture shows how ridiculous things got:

Image: https://p.imgci.com/db/PICTURES/CMS/227800/227831.jpg

That's Barry Richards with the bat he used to scored 325 in a day, compared with one of David Warner's bats. That particular bat of Warner's wouldn't be allowed now, but the bats that are allowed now are still far too big.

Doing some searching, I've discovered that the edges of the average professional's bat in 1980 were 18mm. They are still allowing 40mm now. That's twice as much. The obvious thing to do is to restrict that further - along with some kind of restriction on the maximum depth. Those old bats were nothing like 67mm deep.

The balance at the moment is still wrong. You still see top edges and mishits going for six on a regular basis, which just isn't right. Regulating a minimum press would be impossible, so all you can do is restrict the size.

Stuckfast · March 2021

I'd have thought the main reason mishits go for six is that big grounds usually bring the boundaries in for T20 matches.

Top edges going for six is nothing new.

Heartfeltdawn · March 2021

Modern bats are way more forgiving. It's like comparing persimmon drivers to modern graphite huge sweet spot drivers. No comparison at all.

And yes it's easier to hit sixes. Better technique, stronger players, shorter boundaries, and equipment that makes it easier to hit sixes. And that's the bottom line, equipment that makes it easier to do things.

So let's just enjoy Imran smoking Greg Thomas instead. A proper six

yes it's in the right spot when you press play. Just give it a minute.

guitars4you · March 2021

Just an additional story on the big bats - Recall Graham Gooch getting 333 + against India - He said later that he should have changed to a lighter bat, towards the end of the day/innings as he knew he was getting tired

So a question for any of you - Do the likes of Kohli, Kane Williamson + others who play 20/20 ODI and Test Match at a high level, do they use a different size/weight/depth bat for test cricket, with a view to 'stroking' the ball thru' the covers as against needing the power for 20/20 and ODI - Maybe the likes of Pant don't as they have that constant 'attack' mode regardless

Gassage · March 2021

guitars4you said:

Just an additional story on the big bats - Recall Graham Gooch getting 333 + against India - He said later that he should have changed to a lighter bat, towards the end of the day/innings as he knew he was getting tired

So a question for any of you - Do the likes of Kohli, Kane Williamson + others who play 20/20 ODI and Test Match at a high level, do they use a different size/weight/depth bat for test cricket, with a view to 'stroking' the ball thru' the covers as against needing the power for 20/20 and ODI - Maybe the likes of Pant don't as they have that constant 'attack' mode regardless

Some do, some don't.

Kohli is 2.10, Kane is 2.8- Kane likes precisely 10% moisture, 12 grains. Kane uses the same....

More often they'll go from light to heavy though.

Gassage · March 2021

crunchman said:

The pressing is important. Modern bats are not pressed as much as bats from years ago. In times past, they were definitely pressed more to give more durability. I've read that several places. Now they are pressed to give optimum power at the expense of durability.

I think I remember reading that Denis Compton used the same bat for the whole season in 1947, when he set the record for the number of runs in a year. Modern bats just do not last that long. Google tells me that David Warner went through 47 bats in a season.

Warner demands 20 pairs of gloves per test and new boots for each one. He is, apparently, a complete a-hole to the bat companies and most of those bats will be down to him going through them until he scores runs with one and suddenly decides he likes it. Also, he's using Spartan at the moment, who don't make bats and use a load of subbies and it's pretty much pot luck.

crunchman said:

That's Barry Richards with the bat he used to scored 325 in a day, compared with one of David Warner's bats. That particular bat of Warner's wouldn't be allowed now, but the bats that are allowed now are still far too big.

Again, volume makes little difference. Weight does.

Doing some searching, I've discovered that the edges of the average professional's bat in 1980 were 18mm. They are still allowing 40mm now. That's twice as much. The obvious thing to do is to restrict that further - along with some kind of restriction on the maximum depth. Those old bats were nothing like 67mm deep.

The biggest reason for that is the face pressing. If you press the face convex, as in days of old versus pressing flat, as now, the edge of the bat is no longer rolled, so whilst the edge appears thicker, the depth of the bat isn't as significantly bigger.

The balance at the moment is still wrong. You still see top edges and mishits going for six on a regular basis, which just isn't right. Regulating a minimum press would be impossible, so all you can do is restrict the size.

That has far more to do with the power, intent and speed of swing that the actual bat.

In a simple observation, if, as you are convinced, the bat is pressed softer, what will happen when the ball hits the edge (which is an angle)? In basic terms the edge will deform and dent. That means it's absorbed, not transferred energy.

Bats are not pressed very differently at all (as an e.g. Grays and GM still use 70 yr old manual presses- all that's changed is the press roller which shapes the face flatter) but what has changed is that the willow is grown better with more consistent grain structure and growing times without false growth years.

What has changed is that good bats are easier for the public to get hold of due to the improved growing and drying processes.

A super big bat like Warner's is a myth in terms of how it improves your performance. Firstly, it's harder to swing fast due to air resistance and also there is less accuracy.

Lastly, the big bat/soft press thing- Imagine a grade 50c tool steel hammer head weighing 2lbs, and a pillow with an aluminium case also weighing 2lbs?

Which will hit a nail harder? Which could you swing more accurately? Which could you swing faster? The answers to those questions are obvious.

Heartfeltdawn · March 2021

be interesting to model the air resistance Dom Sibley faces with his all over the place pickup compared to us normal humans.

Heartfeltdawn · March 2021

"Why can't our spinners bowl more maidens?"

Rashid Khan is currently the top T20 bowler in the world and his career bowling stats across all three formats are ridiculous.

https://i.imgur.com/XwoG0n6.png

Afghanistan are battering Zimbabwe right now. After 545-5 declared, they bowled Zimbabwe out for 287. Rashid took 4 for 138 from 36.3 overs. 3 maidens in total out of all of that. When a dude with stats like him ain't bowling maiden after maiden despite bowling on a turning track at home against Zimbabwe, then it does point to batsmen being more able to rotate strike (well, non-English batsmen anyhow) and thus stopping the maiden over from happening.

rocktron · March 2021

To the fine gentlemen who responded to the subject of Monster Bats:

I enjoyed reading your posts very much.

I have an old, unused Duncan Fearnley Size H bat (I use a Size SH bat, but I got this one cheaply), which is very light and beautifully balanced. Its pick-up is as light as a feather - great for playing air cover drives in my living room. LOL

I found two Monster Bats available from www.cjicricket.com:-

1. CJI Fatso F500 Limited Edition
2. CJI Sumo Trojan Limited Edition

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LATEST-CJI-FATSO-F500-LIMITED-EDITION-RED-Full-Size-weight-3lb-12ozs-Extras/173762550584?hash=item28750e1b38:g:0bwAAOSwWrNcTGKW

There is/was even one weighing in at 4lbs. These are clearly intended for training purposes only, or for attacking burglars.

I am tempted to get a lighter, but maximum thickness one, before they disappear forever. Future generations would be amazed at their size!!!

PS: That picture of Barry Richards holding a Gray-Nicolls "Kaboom" bat is just awesome.

Heartfeltdawn · March 2021

Y'know... I'm debating something radical for next year. Leave London, back to the sticks, focus on something totally different after the last few years of madarse work and pandemics.

Village cricket would be something to do. And a tailender like me would look fucking ridiculous with a bat like that. Hmmmm.

Stuckfast · March 2021

I used to play in a pub side where about half of us were decent cricketers and the other half were pissheads. The unusual thing was that the pissheads came from various Asian backgrounds, and every time we came up against a really strong team they were able to put in a few phone calls and get us some ringers who didn't usually play locally.

One time we came up against the best club in the region in a cup final. Their best batsman came out to bat. The Pakistani spinner we'd mysteriously recruited said don't worry, I'll get him out second ball. And he did.

Heartfeltdawn · March 2021

The days before some leagues changed their rules were great. I remember a 2nd XI game at home where the 1st XI arrived back rather rapidly. One of my mates was making his way in 1st XI cricket, just a couple of games in the top order. They'd been rather blown away by a ringer who was playing because he'd not long been back in the country, his county stint hadn't started yet, and a mate asked him if he fancied a few overs. Quite a useful chap too, went by the name of Walsh...

sixstringsupplies · March 2021

Is anyone watching the pyjama cricket?
Dawid Malan has been frustrating to watch in this series but he has enough credit in the bank to carry. But personally I’d much rather see Root at 3 in the Twenty20 World Cup later this year. Root ahead of Hales.

Actually watching Dawid Malan bat for his whole international Twenty20 career has been frustrating, though more often than not, he pulls it off and accelerates through the gears.

Bet Malan gets 90 not out today now I’ve said that!

crunchman · March 2021

sixstringsupplies said:

Is anyone watching the pyjama cricket?

No

Heartfeltdawn · March 2021

Yay to some livestreams and yay to it looking far warmer than it did for the Somerset-Worcestershire warm-up last week.

rocktron · March 2021

Forget about trade and vaccine supply deals with India. We need to send in Bojo to bat for England!!!

https://i.imgur.com/sTff3DO.jpg

camf · March 2021

Heartfeltdawn said:

Yay to some livestreams and yay to it looking far warmer than it did for the Somerset-Worcestershire warm-up last week.

Excellent. Watched the first 15 overs. Proper cricket... bog-all happened. Twenty four runs for none down. Summer is here!

Heartfeltdawn · March 2021

rocktron said:

Forget about trade and vaccine supply deals with India. We need to send in Bojo to bat for England!!!

https://i.imgur.com/sTff3DO.jpg

Boris as captain: He'd be giving the shit in the warm up, go in at 3, late cut the first ball past leg stump for 4, then nick off to the slips. Tail end bails him out a bit and gives his team 120 runs to play with.

In the field, he's dropping them in the slips, blaming the sun, and eventually moves himself to midwicket after the third catch goes down off the same opening bowler, who by now is chuntering. First changers come on, get some wickets, and then Boris misses a crucial chance to run their number 7 out. Team Boris goes on to lose by 4 wickets. The winning side are amazed that those same hands that couldn't catch even the simplest nick are absolutely rock solid around a pint glass.

rocktron · March 2021

A future England batsman and captain? Michael Atherton's son, Josh de Caires, hits a hundred for his University team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/56586817

The lad seems to be using his mother's surname in his cricketing career, possibly to avoid media scrutiny, and comparison to his father.

His mother is from Guyana where many famous West Indies cricketers came from, among them Rohan Kanhai, Basil Butcher, Joe Solomon, Lance Gibbs, Clive Lloyd, Roy Fredericks, Alvin Kallicharran, Colin Croft, Faoud Bacchus, Shivnarine Chanderpaul, and Ramnaresh Sarwan.

Heartfeltdawn · April 2021

Happy start of the County Championship season day to you all!

https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/2096539/how-to-watch-listen-and-follow-the-2021-lv-insurance-county-championship

Should be interesting to see if this hub works out.

scrumhalf · April 2021

I don't envy anyone having to field in this weather. Did the season ever start this early, even in the days of the B&H cup?

Heartfeltdawn · April 2021

scrumhalf said:

I don't envy anyone having to field in this weather. Did the season ever start this early, even in the days of the B&H cup?

1947 season started 3rd May.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1940S/1947/ENG_LOCAL/

1985 season: earliest round of matches were the pre-season uni games (first class status then, not first class now). 4 days games, started 20th April. County Championship started 27th April.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1980S/1985/ENG_LOCAL/CC/

I've had pre-season games start this early but never full league. I too do not envy them fielding in this weather.

Heartfeltdawn · April 2021

So far at 1147 the biggest stand for the first wicket down is Hampshire with 37. A measure of how hard things are for opening batsmen is to go through every game and to put the score down at the fall of the first wicket

(Edited now Cookie is out for Essex)

30
5
0
8
37
17
3
14
8

So across the 9 games that have lost a wicket, the average first wicket stand was 13.5. Not a single half century stand.

So having the games start this early does fuck all for opening batsmen, it does fuck all for spinners, and it makes it easier for average seamers to take wickets.

Stuckfast · April 2021

It's not ideal, for sure, but given that the English climate only gives you a five-month window to play cricket, some of it has to go at the start. Not sure these conditions would be much fun for T20 or 50 over matches.

Have there been any minefields out there this morning? I've been watching the Northants-Kent game and the pitch has been slow but pretty true. And it's too cold for the ball to swing.

Who do you fancy for the Championship this year? Lancs look very strong to me.

Heartfeltdawn · April 2021

Stuckfast said:

It's not ideal, for sure, but given that the English climate only gives you a five-month window to play cricket, some of it has to go at the start. Not sure these conditions would be much fun for T20 or 50 over matches.

Have there been any minefields out there this morning? I've been watching the Northants-Kent game and the pitch has been slow but pretty true. And it's too cold for the ball to swing.

Who do you fancy for the Championship this year? Lancs look very strong to me.

The lack of temperature is the big thing. No temp = no swing. One of the Somerset pre-season games, Sonny Baker was getting some right hoop going. Definite shades of Simon Jones in the action and pace.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SomersetCCC/status/1376495654822940673

The game against Glamorgan with sod all temperature, it looked horrible.

Some centurions out there, both openers which is good. 48 wickets fallen today at time of writing. Only 1 of them has fallen to a spinner (Leach).

Heartfeltdawn · April 2021

Stuckfast said:

Who do you fancy for the Championship this year? Lancs look very strong to me.

I know who I don't fancy based on their top 6. Sussex and Glamorgan look very weak.

For all round balance, Essex and Somerset are still top. They have the bowlers, they have a good lead spinner, both of them have some real old head experience in Hildreth and Ten Doeschate, Essex ahead on the batting front but not by much. Cook is an onbious standout man but Tom Lammonby looked bloody amazing last season and carried this on in pre-season this year.

Lancashire are a work in progress. The bowling line up is not hugely experienced outside of Tom Bailey but they have got some batting experience. I hope Josh Bohannon will have a good season as I really like the look of him with the bat.

Surrey: man, you look at that side and you wonder why they aren't being tipped to hammer people. You look at the side today and they've got the closest thing to a Test match top six in county cricket with one international bowler, one quite possibly international this winter in Jamie Overton, and one future England spinner in Virdi.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/ECKO49936

And that side today doesn't feature the like of Will Jacks, Ryan Patel, Conor McKerr, Rikki Clarke, Gareth Batty, Dan Moriarty, Kemar Roach coming in soon, Jason Roy, Plunkett, Dernbach... the combination of youth and experience in that squad is just mental.

But ultimately for the title Essex are the clear favourites as they'll only lose Lawrence to England (maybe). Somerset losing Leach over the summer is a blow.

Stuckfast · April 2021

That'll be the Surrey that have just scraped past 200 against a thoroughly pedestrian Gloucestershire attack... underachieving as ever. They must think highly of Gus Atkinson, whoever he is, if they picked him ahead of all those others.

Essex and Somerset will be up there again for sure. That Baker guy does look handy, shame he couldn't get a game today.

Heartfeltdawn · April 2021

Stuckfast said:

That'll be the Surrey that have just scraped past 200 against a thoroughly pedestrian Gloucestershire attack... underachieving as ever. They must think highly of Gus Atkinson, whoever he is, if they picked him ahead of all those others.

Essex and Somerset will be up there again for sure. That Baker guy does look handy, shame he couldn't get a game today.

Exactly, hence my sort of open-ended exclamation which wasn't strong enough. The squad, the venue, the money... and yet it's like this. The Tottenham Hotspur of cricket strikes again.

Interesting seeing how a number of sides today has revived their fortunes with a good bit of tail wagging.

scrumhalf · April 2021

Darren Stevens starts the season with a ton. He'll doubtless skittle a couple of Northants batsmen out as well.

I don't know how he does it, I'm just glad rhat he does.

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