Will “big amps” come back into fashion?

fretmeister · October 2023

Article from 2 days ago about Metallica swapping.
Consistency of sound being an important factor.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/metallica_tech_explains_why_band_swapped_amps_for_modellers_its_cheaper_more_reliable_and_all_the_rigs_now_sound_exactly_the_same.html?fbclid=IwAR1dbUdG2htbmr9KECk1cmgT1qomdYPG7mmOG25fnCVL6rMG2kk7hVC6SsY_aem_AaVJA42K785oAcNC1jQM9MmfyFbDUW6dGbr9KMhKH4ob0IGPp_dNe8zabrHQdYJqNZs

menamestom · October 2023

p90fool said:

Hush said:

In answer to the question, it's down to the individual player, personally my opinion is you don't need a big amp on stage, particarly at smaller venues, and at bigger venues as well, you would use a sound engineer, who would mic up your amp and throw it back to you through the monitors.

So instead of using an adequately powered amp you bring an underpowered amp then bring a mic + stand, a 150w powered monitor and an extra person to operate it all?

Yes I am being a little facetious obviously, but my amp needs to have enough power to be able to put the guitar at the correct mix level onstage in relation to the drums, otherwise you're all playing by numbers and not interacting dynamically like, y'know, musicians.

I've seen quite a few pub bands lately who use 15-20w combos without a good PA and you want to grab them by the scruff and play them a good commercial mix, instead of the current pub standard of crashing drums and cymbals plus railway announcer vocals and almost nothing else.

I agree with this but 20 watts can be plenty, depending on the drummer. A deluxe reverb with an efficient speaker can be pretty loud and the most watts some people need.

That said I’m not into the trend of picking amps that are low wattage so they are ’in the zone’. That just means not enough headroom. But if you have a lower wattage amp it’s definitely worth picking the correct speaker because it can make a massive difference.

ICBM · October 2023

menamestom said:

I agree with this but 20 watts can be plenty, depending on the drummer. A deluxe reverb with an efficient speaker can be pretty loud and the most watts some people need.

I’ve never found the Deluxe Reverb quite loud enough - or rather, it can be loud enough, but not clean and with the bass response I like. You can have two of the three but not all three at the same time. That’s with a good efficient speaker too.

It can just about get there with a solid-state rectifier and 6L6s, but I still find it easier with a Vibrolux or a Pro Reverb.

bbill335 · October 2023

ICBM said:

menamestom said:

I agree with this but 20 watts can be plenty, depending on the drummer. A deluxe reverb with an efficient speaker can be pretty loud and the most watts some people need.

I’ve never found the Deluxe Reverb quite loud enough - or rather, it can be loud enough, but not clean and with the bass response I like. You can have two of the three but not all three at the same time. That’s with a good efficient speaker too.

It can just about get there with a solid-state rectifier and 6L6s, but I still find it easier with a Vibrolux or a Pro Reverb.

even my vibrolux fumbles the low end once the volume gets a bit antisocial. not a problem for me, but were i on bigger stages or playing heavier music then it wouldn't cut it.

menamestom · October 2023

Heavier music always makes me think closed back cabs. I guess the Deluxe Reverb is always going to be fairly soft in the bass, with a 1x12 and fairly small OT.

The bigger 2x10's often have fairly low sensitivity speakers which are probably the weakest link in the chain. Would be reasonable with something like Ragin Cajuns, I would imagine?

Reverend · October 2023

pretty much most of the bands I see are using 4x12s and heads. maybe 99% are using them. even those using modelling gear are playing through full cabs. I've probably only seen 40-50 gigs this year but its still pretty much essential at a smaller scale to have amps capable of filling a room

Gassage · October 2023

I really struggle with lower powered smaller amps. I find they lose size of sound.

I adore the Lazy J20 but the J40 (ridiculously undermeasured 40w as it's super powerful) has so much chime and girth by comparison yet retains the tweed sweetness.

And, a Hiwatt DR103/504 is so easy to use at lower vols although Marshalls less so, other than the JVMs

rsvmark · October 2023

Smaller does not equal quieter. There is a volume knob on most amps. I discovered this at a recent gig when I tried out my new (to me) matchless. It’s 15w so I switched on and stuck everything to 12 noon as a starter for 10. Nearly took my head off!

menamestom · October 2023

ICBM said:

menamestom said:

I agree with this but 20 watts can be plenty, depending on the drummer. A deluxe reverb with an efficient speaker can be pretty loud and the most watts some people need.

I’ve never found the Deluxe Reverb quite loud enough - or rather, it can be loud enough, but not clean and with the bass response I like. You can have two of the three but not all three at the same time. That’s with a good efficient speaker too.

It can just about get there with a solid-state rectifier and 6L6s, but I still find it easier with a Vibrolux or a Pro Reverb.

I'm thinking of ordering a Deluxe Reverb type amp (Emprize Harrier), but wondering if it's worth asking about a 6L6 power section. I guess that would actually be closer to a Vibrolux with Reverb, or Vibroverb with a 12" speaker, if it could be done?

I would imagine the OT is a limiting factor with putting 6L6's in a Deluxe Reverb, whereas if you spec the 6L6 power section this would be addressed.

There's also preamp voltage, which is increased quite a bit in the bigger amps, which drives the 6L6's more.

ICBM · October 2023

menamestom said:

I would imagine the OT is a limiting factor with putting 6L6's in a Deluxe Reverb, whereas if you spec the 6L6 power section this would be addressed.

No - the odd thing is that the Deluxe Reverb has an incorrect spec OT, as originally designed. The turns ratio is wrong for 6V6s into an 8-ohm load - it's a low mismatch, which in fact is mostly responsible for their typical 'flubby' overdriven sound, rather than it being a characteristic of 6V6s as usually assumed.

I once calculated the correct load for one and from memory it's about 14 ohms - which makes a 16-ohm speaker a much better match. But it also means that 6L6s are *also* a better match into an 8-ohm speaker. Thus fitting 6L6s does actually increase the power and headroom, which it (somewhat counterintuitively) usually doesn't with most other amps despite the 6L6s having more power capability.

My guess is that the reason for this is probably that the DR was originally designed for a different valve type, most likely the 7591A which was popular as a small, high-performance valve in the early 1960s... but then someone at Fender realised they could get very nearly the same power with the much cheaper 6V6, and Leo was always a cheapskate so they swapped - but didn't bother changing the OT.

rockmonster · October 2023

I think it’s really interesting to read all these responses. It seems to me there are mainly two camps. One who disagree with being too loud and too lairy and the other camp who use what they like regardless. I’ve dabbled with digital and had numerous kempers, I’ve DI ‘d into the PA using all kinds of weird and technologically poptastic gizmos and yes they are easy to set up and yes you can go to a gig not be too loud and yes the punters rarely notice the difference (pub gigs I’m talking) BUT, it doesn’t work for me. It’s not about middle aged old die hard brain dead’s who have loads of money and need to shock people with their Marshall stacks (it still surprises me how many people don’t actually know that one 4x12 and a head is a half stack) Most big valve heads and a 4x12 are easily set up sound glorious and have really good master volumes which can cope with anything that a venue throws at it! It’s not about the volume for me it’s about the depth and coverage of the sound. Digital just doesn’t do it for me. People seem to think big amps are not PC and don’t seem to understand that they don’t need to be played flat out.A big amp to me played at the same volume as a 30 watt 1x12 combo (for example) doesn’t sound as big. And that’s it for me. Big valve heads are cool, I’ve always had them, they will keep making them, selling anything at the moment is difficult but big valve heads will never die. Buy them all up now while people can’t give them away- make a killing! you know it makes sense Rodney! Lol!

menamestom · October 2023

rockmonster said:

A big amp to me played at the same volume as a 30 watt 1x12 combo (for example) doesn’t sound as big.

True but depends on the type of music and type of cab. I find closed back cabs, even 4x12 big in frequency, but not very big in spread, compared to open back cabinets. Open back cabs fill the room better. A 30 watt 1x12 won't really compete with big amps and 4 x12 but I think a 30w 2x12 certainly can. An AC30, for example. It won't have the low end chunk for rock, but it would fill any room.

chrisv · October 2023

Such a range of opinions on here, which I guess is down to different playing environments, how clean people like their core amp tone to be, how loud their drummer is, and numerous other factors.

For me, 12-15 watts is almost too much. In my Americana band I'm forever being told to turn down the volume on my Lazy J J10LC, even at outdoor festivals or in large tents, and the onboard attenuator often saves the day. I never use a crystal clean amp sound for my core tone (preferring to get cleaner textures by using a softer right-hand attack or the guitar's controls) and a bigger, more powerful amp would be mildly farcical, not to mention far less convenient.

Luckily I only play venues and events with an in-house PA and engineer, so my load-in can be done in one journey from the car or van (one guitar, one amp, small pedalboard in gigbag pocket). I suspect my requirements would be very different if I was playing with a brass section, or playing super-clean, percussive guitar in a ska or funk band.

ICBM · October 2023

In my experience a 100W 2x12” open-back combo just fills a room effortlessly and actually at a slightly *lower* volume than a smaller amp, which tend to be more directional. I don’t currently own one because they just got too heavy for me, but if I was gigging with a guitar again I’d probably be looking at a Tonemaster Twin or something very similar.

JamesSGBrown · October 2023

Not all bands are created equal.

I see a lot of djent/tech metal bands using modellers because of the consistency. That works for them- especially in genres where they noise-gate the fuck out of everything
Whereas a band like mine- I use a lot of feedback and built my tone around a Twin Reverb. Even though a clean modeller should work in theory, it just doesn't.

And the band I play bass in plays in a genre where big, heavy and loud amps are VERY much still thriving (doom/stoner). Never seen anyone use anything smaller than a 2x12 in a year of touring.

As someone who has 2 weeks of carrying 4x12s, 4x10s and 1x15s around Europe ahead of me... I can't say I love that part of the job. but if it's the only way to get our sound then so be it. However, if modelling worked for us then I wouldn't hasten to go down that route!

EDIT: To add- people seem to think bigger must mean it needs to be louder. But there's a certain bass response to larger cabs that isn't all about volume. The fact of the matter is, a 4x12 on the floor is going to give you a low-end that you just can't as easily replicate with a smaller amp, and sometimes (in our case, a power-trio) that is crucial to the live sound and ultimately the experience of the audience. But it's venue-dependent also, of course.

Danny1969 · October 2023

I think another thing that hasn't been mentioned is money. I love gig'ing but I like to make a profit out of it. I'm not going to use a £1200 modeller and a £300 active speaker do a gig I could have done with a £300 amp and a hundred quids worth of pedals.

Another thing that comes to mind is to some people, the guitar and amp is one instrument. You get to know your amp and how it responds to feedback and how to use it creatively.

The only time modelling has made sense to me is when I was doing the tribute gigs in theatres .. because we had no amps or wedges onstage and all the gear and 5 people had to travel in a small splitter van. The little Pod Go was ok for that, not great but passable and for £350 a bit of a bargain.

What I would love to see is a unit with various analog drives, no digital modelling bollocks just the actual circuits and some basic digital delays and verbs ... all recallable in terms of drive tone and mix ...

GavRichList · October 2023

Danny1969 said:

What I would love to see is a unit with various analog drives, no digital modelling bollocks just the actual circuits and some basic digital delays and verbs ... all recallable in terms of drive tone and mix ...

feels like something Chase Bliss could make, and charge 4 figures for

rockmonster · October 2023

fretmeister said:

Article from 2 days ago about Metallica swapping.
Consistency of sound being an important factor

Interesting, but if you have a gazzillion watt PA even a smokey amp will be plenty loud! Lol!
Its all down to cost though innit!

jeztone2 · October 2023

GavRichList said:

Danny1969 said:

What I would love to see is a unit with various analog drives, no digital modelling bollocks just the actual circuits and some basic digital delays and verbs ... all recallable in terms of drive tone and mix ...

feels like something Chase Bliss could make, and charge 4 figures for

That’s the TC Nova System. If you used the parametric EQ with the drive it was an amazing unit. But cheaply and nastily put together sadly.

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Will “big amps” come back into fashion?

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