Will “big amps” come back into fashion?

Nerine · October 2023

Inspired by another thread.

Are they less desirable now?

Have we seen the beginning of the end of the 100w stack?

Will they become more desirable again given everything is usually pretty cyclical?

I’m not sure. I think we’re seeing the twilight of the “big amp” era. Less and less huge stages have stacks of cabinets and 100w heads nowadays, too.

I think better PAs and where modellers are nowadays have pretty much killed them off in the smaller venues and pubs/clubs etc. I absolutely love gigging with my Fractal for example, whereas I used to haul Dual Rectifiers, Ecstasys, JCM 800s etc and a 4x12 or two. Can’t remember the last time I did that.

I don’t ever see this being reversed.

Especially since listening habits change, volume levels decrease, venues get smaller etc. Perhaps I don’t go to enough gigs or whatever, but I’ve seen a trend amongst my fellow working musicians towards smaller and smaller amps or just going fully digital. I don’t think any of my muso friends take a head and 4x12 out with them anymore.

I’m sure people still do, of course, but I’d imagine it’s quickly becoming the exception rather than the rule?

Has the stack/half stack reached the end of its road? Will they regain popularity?

sweepy · October 2023

100w and 50w valve amps still have that classic sound and feel, they never really went out of fashion with the serious player i think,

jellybelly · October 2023

sweepy said:

100w and 50w valve amps still have that classic sound and feel, they never really went out of fashion with the serious player i think,

But I will reserve the right to look at anyone who brings one to a local pub gig with disbelief as I cart my ToneMaster Deluxe in...

Having gigged a 100w Marshall half stack (2203 reissue) about 20 years ago now, I can promise you I never needed that power and my hearing has probably suffered due to owning it. Sounded great though but the reality is you'd struggle to get many 20w amps cooking at most gigs nowadays.

They'd make great pedal platforms though as they're big and thick no matter how they're set

Danny1969 · October 2023

jellybelly said:

sweepy said:

100w and 50w valve amps still have that classic sound and feel, they never really went out of fashion with the serious player i think,

But I will reserve the right to look at anyone who brings one to a local pub gig with disbelief as I cart my ToneMaster Deluxe in...

Having gigged a 100w Marshall half stack (2203 reissue) about 20 years ago now, I can promise you I never needed that power and my hearing has probably suffered due to owning it. Sounded great though but the reality is you'd struggle to get many 20w amps cooking at most gigs nowadays.

They'd make great pedal platforms though as they're big and thick no matter how they're set

Would you really be surprised if someone brought in a amp that's probably been going for hundreds of gigs, from small pubs to large outdoor festivals ... you can turn big amps down but you can't turn small amps up. A 30 watt amp that seems more than enough at pub volume can suddenly seem very underpowered on a big stage. Better and cheaper to own something that's able to cover all bases of volume and weather situations.
From an electronics point of view the last amp I would trust for this is a Tonemaster but I'm happy to be proved wrong about this and hope I am.

In theory a smallish amp is mic'ed up and sent back through the wedge but on a busy large festival you are lucky to get a 30 second line check between acts let alone a monitor check. Once you have been in this situation a few times you learn just to crank the backline and move around the stage to get your mix. I'm normally on IEM's but you can't be a diva at a festival situation you just have to get on with it.

So I think loud amps will be around for quite a while yet.

ICBM · October 2023

What’s the most common bass amp on proper professional-level stages where someone else is being paid to move the gear so size and weight doesn’t matter?

Ampeg SVT and 8x10” cab - even though there are dozens of lighter and more powerful (though not necessarily louder or more authoritative sounding) modern amps.

So I can see 50W and 100W guitar amps being used for some time longer too.

At smaller gigs with amateur/semi-pro owners who have to carry their own gear, not so much...

GavRichList · October 2023

if we're on the death-rattle, then it's certainly reflected in the secondhand value being on it's collective arse. Objectively, my 100w Twin amp sounds absolutely glorious... but the market just wouldn't be there were I to try and sell it. I'd be staring down the barrel of somewhere between £400-600 I reckon, yet to get anything that sounded even close to as good would cost a small fortune new. Whenever I have to pick it up, I long for something smaller...but plugging in makes you quickly forget.

Middle ground for me is a head and cab. I think the small amp market is reflective of the increase in hobbyists / bedroom players etc. Im not seeing boutique 10w flavour of the months on stages personally.

chrisj1602 · October 2023

I’ve got a 50w Blackstar St. James, which I’m not sure is classed as a big amp being a 1x12…. it can be very loud, but also very manageable with the 2w setting and a master volume. It also has headphone, USB and line outs so is very versatile. I guess we will see more of this.

Reverend · October 2023

I clearly play in a very different world to most of you.

Danny1969 · October 2023

The most common amps I see onstage at proper venues

Main stream music - Hot Rods / Blues Deluxe ... sometimes a Princeton

Indie - Vox AC30, Orange Rocker

Classic Rock - Marshall & Blackstar

Heavy stuff like Death and Doom - 5150 variants ... normally 100 watters

Portsmouth's largest rehearsal rooms are all Hot Rods, Blackstar, Orange and Marshall Valve amps ... Orange Rocker being the smallest.

octatonic · October 2023

Depends on the genre.
For pop and country a combo is fine but you can't use that in a stoner/doom band.

Imagine Sunn O))) using Helix's straight to the PA.
It just wouldn't and couldn't work.

I use an FM9 into stage monitoring/FOH/in ears for the wedding/functions band stuff.
It is fine- the point is an easy load in, quick set up time etc.

For everything else I want wattage.

Jetfire · October 2023

@sweepy what's a serious player?

MikeP · October 2023

I'd say they're dead, people expect the gig should sound like the album did when they played it through their phone..

fretmeister · October 2023

ICBM said:

What’s the most common bass amp on proper professional-level stages where someone else is being paid to move the gear so size and weight doesn’t matter?

Ampeg SVT and 8x10” cab - even though there are dozens of lighter and more powerful (though not necessarily louder or more authoritative sounding) modern amps.

So I can see 50W and 100W guitar amps being used for some time longer too.

At smaller gigs with amateur/semi-pro owners who have to carry their own gear, not so much...

I see more Ashdowns than Ampegs now.

Danny1969 · October 2023

fretmeister said:

ICBM said:

What’s the most common bass amp on proper professional-level stages where someone else is being paid to move the gear so size and weight doesn’t matter?

Ampeg SVT and 8x10” cab - even though there are dozens of lighter and more powerful (though not necessarily louder or more authoritative sounding) modern amps.

So I can see 50W and 100W guitar amps being used for some time longer too.

At smaller gigs with amateur/semi-pro owners who have to carry their own gear, not so much...

I see more Ashdowns than Ampegs now.

Well that's generally because you need more Ashdowns ... they tend to break a lot

p90fool · October 2023

With our own PA and monitor setup I'm happy with a single 1x12 combo, but for any other situation, especially outdoors, I'll take my Marshall half stack.

It's an unnecessary precaution roughly half the time, but for the other half I would've been screwed.

fretmeister · October 2023

Jetfire said:

@sweepy what's a serious player?

Obviously not:

Metallica / Dream Theatre / Winery Dogs / Mastodon / Theatre pit musicians / Josh after he admitted he was using a Kemper for all the pedal demos / Keith Urban / Dave Murray / Def Leppard / Devin Townsend / Paul Gilbert / Alex Skolnick / Andy Sneap / Bumblefoot / Black Stone Cherry / Garbage / Billy Sheehan / Phil Bynoe / and endless full time professional session musicians.

Satriani was a serious player, then he did an album with only plugins and then became a non serious player instantly. John Meyer was serious until he toured with a Kemper, but then became serious again when he got an amp out.

Nile Rodgers has never ever been a serious player as he goes straight into the desk with a bit of compression and a good EQ.

None of them are serious players.

The simple fact is, the kids are growing up with modelling and plugins and then when they get their first valve amp that doesn't sound anything like their modeller they often go back to what they know. And the 9 million sounds they can have instead of just variations on a single theme. They don't care about obsolesce as they are already programmed to need a new smart phone every 3 years.

100W raging stacks are now a stage prop. They are too loud in a pub, and unnecessary in a stadium.

Don't get me wrong - I love a good valve amp. The JCM800 is probably my favourite amp of all time, but it needs cranking to sound full and there's no pub with sound meters that will tolerate that, so it needs attenuating or run clean with pedals (what's the point of an 800?) so a 20W is a much better choice. There are others with a better control system to allow a great tone at much lower volume but it's all weight and extra pedals, cables, and mic-ing up etc etc that just isn't needed much anymore. XLR from a modeller into the PA - boom. Job done.

It's not the next gen buying £3000+ super amps from Friedman / Mesa etc. It's the middle aged with a bit of cash to spare. The next gen are buying modellers they can use for live and recording and not bothering with valve amps or learning how to mic up cabs and so on.

I often think about buying a good valve amp again just to have one for when they do stop making them, but then I question if I would actually use it enough. I certainly couldn't be arsed to take it out for a gig anymore. And then I'd have to go down the pedal rabbit hole again, probably costing more than the amp & cab did.

Whichever way it goes though, 'serious player' snobbery is nonsense.

impmann · October 2023

They aren't as necessary for the average semi-pro player any more. Therefore the volume sales are low and will probably remain so.
Yes "nothing quite sounds/feels like" a flat out non-master volume high power valve amp - but the opportunities to use one like that for the vast majority of players are limited - and there are a lot of options available that get you a great tone, without the need for them. Therefore, I'm not sure the situation will change dramatically.
There will always be *a market* for them, but that market is not on the increase.

CaseOfAce · October 2023

impmann said:

They aren't as necessary for the average semi-pro player any more. Therefore the volume sales are low and will probably remain so.
Yes "nothing quite sounds/feels like" a flat out non-master volume high power valve amp - but the opportunities to use one like that for the vast majority of players are limited - and there are a lot of options available that get you a great tone, without the need for them. Therefore, I'm not sure the situation will change dramatically.
There will always be *a market* for them, but that market is not on the increase.

What's an average semi pro player?
Are we talking weekend warrior types? (i..e me!) - i.e. 2 to 3 times a month?
I use a Hot Rod Deluxe. I see no reason to change.

And there's about 3 or 4 different questions being asked in the OP's post.

Are big amps any less desirable? Nope - same as always - most of us on here would love to have them and use them.
Are 100 watt amps obsolete - depends who's using them where.
Are 4 x 12 cabs redundant - nope - they sound different to a 1 x 12 speaker or 2 x12 cabs.
Are we still seeing big iron on concert stages - yes - sometimes.
At pubs and clubs - nope - generally - apart from the diehards.

danishbacon · October 2023

For what it's worth, here's what October Drift (indie) were using at their kick off gig recently.

I don't know exactly what the gear is, but at least the guitars, 1 marshall head and 1 fender combo.

It sounded massive and the crowd was mesmerised.

Image: https://i.postimg.cc/3rXftdtX/IMG-3956.jpg

TheBigDipper · October 2023

I wouldn't say big amps have ever been "in fashion", TBH. It's just they were once the only tool that did the job so that's what everyone used (or they didn't get heard). Yes, they were often too big for the venue, and not everyone turned them down to an appropriate level, but it was all people could get. Yes, they are heavy and bulky.

But they do sound good and can be dialled in in 30 seconds.

The most convenient (for gear) gig I've done this year was on May 6th, with a GT-1000 into the PA. But I couldn't get an edge-of-breakup sound I liked EVER - and it took 2-3 hours to get to something I could use (but I didn't really like it). Great for cleans, great for heavy distortion at manageable levels, but not e-o-b. Not when I'm dialling it in, anyway.

Which is why I'll continue to schlep my Rivera to gigs where we don't have to go direct. Or if I'm told I have to use a borrowed amp, hope it's an HRD or similar.

I'm jealous of those people who can dial in a sound on a modeller that they're happy with. I'd love to be able to take less stuff to a gig and still enjoy it as much as a loud-ish amp. But I can't, so I'm stuck with it. Lucky it sounds so good, eh?

Stuckfast · October 2023

If anything I'd say the trend for people to ditch big valve amps in favour of modellers and/or small low-wattage recording amps has maybe bottomed out. Everyone now realises that digital is more convenient, but quite a few people just don't care and want the thing they want.

Good, highly regarded big valve amps will hold their value -- Marshall Super Leads, older Fender Bassmans, ’60s AC30s etc. Mediocre ones won't.

OilCityPickups · October 2023

Interestingly after a 30+ year gap I've just bought a 100w Marshall again. I have my smaller workshop amps ... but I wanted to move some air and finish the job of totally f**king up my back. :-)

flying_pie · October 2023

Big amps have often been a prop. I'm minded of the video of Randy Rhoads playing Mr Crowley live in1981 with two Marshall full stacks which aren't even switched on and his guitar lead heads off stage... no doubt to a tiny combo miced up.

But it's all down to what works and everyone will have different preferences. I expect gear fashion will continue go through phases depending on what the influencial guitar players are using but big amps, pedals, multi FX and modellers will be ever present

Alterlifeson · October 2023

One that really surprised me to find out the on stage amps weren't doing much was Scott Holiday from Rival Sons. He was always a huge Orange fans/endorsee and regularly used them loud on stage. His latest rig rundown was surprising.

ScreamingDave · October 2023

fretmeister said:

Jetfire said:

@sweepy what's a serious player?

Nile Rodgers has never ever been a serious player as he goes straight into the desk with a bit of compression and a good EQ.

Not sure this is the case. When I saw him a couple of months back he had a couple of Fender Hot Rod Devilles or something back there

Lestratcaster · October 2023

I've been a Kemper user for about 3 years but I don't really play live much anymore, so its great for home use cos I can't really turn up a 100 watt amp through a 4x12.

However the last band I played with that broke up just before covid are reuniting to play a one off show next month and I'm still going to use my 6505+ head. 120 watts into a 4x12 cranked. Oh yes. I could, use my Kemper but I always miss that tube sound and moving air. Also I'm not confident of setting up the Kemper live, though it can't be too hard if there's cabs there and I now know how to do monitor output to that and then send the main output to the desk.

HAL9000 · October 2023

Jetfire said:

what's a serious player?

A player who isn’t too flippant?

ICBM · October 2023

fretmeister said:

Nile Rodgers has never ever been a serious player as he goes straight into the desk with a bit of compression and a good EQ.

Not on stage he doesn't - he uses two Fender Devilles. (I think the 4x10" version.)

roberty · October 2023

A friend just soild his Orange OR100 for around £800. It took around 18 months for him to shift it. The OR30 is in the shops now for double that

Blueingreen · October 2023

It depends what you mean by "in fashion". I can see them going through spells of being in vogue, in the way that retro tech that's no longer the most practical option but has some cool points for its historical associations tends to, whether it's vintage cars or vinyl albums or what have you. But the attraction will be to the sort of folk for whom being vogeuish is unusually important. I don't think they'll ever make a comeback as the default option for most players and I think their use will diminish as the generation who grew up with them and (like every generation) is sometimes resistant to change gets older.

Moe_Zambeek · October 2023

roberty said:

A friend just soild his Orange OR100 for around £800. It took around 18 months for him to shift it. The OR30 is in the shops now for double that

I don’t know why, but the OR100 seems never to have been loved in the orange world, and unloved Orange heads are hard to shift, I think 800 was pretty good. However, worth noting the Dual Dark was never that popular until after it was discontinued, and now they seem to go for quite a bit more. I hope the OR 100 doesn’t go the same way, for your friend’s sake

Meanwhile original ORs and GROs are sky rocketing, in asking price anyway, when I always felt they were worth about £300…

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Will “big amps” come back into fashion?

Comments