Will “big amps” come back into fashion?

joeW · October 2023

There clearly isn’t so much demand for 100w stacks atm. This will probably lead to a large drop in production over the coming years. Then everyone how sold an awesome amp for less than the latest ‘must have’ digital pedal will be kicking themselves. If you can stand going against the grain, it’s a great time to buy imho. Too many iconic tones were made with big amps.

distressed · October 2023

They never went out of "fashion", as far as I am concerned. There are still loads of indie/punk/whatever bands touring Europe in vans packed with halfstacks, or at least something like twins or JC120's.

roberty · October 2023

Moe_Zambeek said:

roberty said:

A friend just soild his Orange OR100 for around £800. It took around 18 months for him to shift it. The OR30 is in the shops now for double that

I don’t know why, but the OR100 seems never to have been loved in the orange world, and unloved Orange heads are hard to shift, I think 800 was pretty good. However, worth noting the Dual Dark was never that popular until after it was discontinued, and now they seem to go for quite a bit more. I hope the OR 100 doesn’t go the same way, for your friend’s sake

Meanwhile original ORs and GROs are sky rocketing, in asking price anyway, when I always felt they were worth about £300…

That's interesting. I don't really know much about Orange amps but I tried it and didn't like it. I have an AD30 that I enjoy

danban · October 2023

I’m pretty happy with my rocker 30 head, however I’ve yet to find or been able to play through a 2x12 I’ve liked yet albeit most were fitted with v30s which I really don’t like.

ICBM · October 2023

danban said:

I’m pretty happy with my rocker 30 head, however I’ve yet to find or been able to play through a 2x12 I’ve liked yet albeit most were fitted with v30s which I really don’t like.

The Rocker 30 is the best-sounding modern Orange in my opinion - and it sounds best with a pair of G12H-30s, preferably the Heritage version. The guitarist in my band went through a long speaker and cabinet quest with his, and ended up there...

... and then ended up selling it after he got a Laney LA30BL.

Onpar · October 2023

I'm loving going to a 'big amp' rig. Currently using a 50 watt JVM head (okay so it's not 100 Watts) and 2x12 1936 cab (okay so it's not a 4x12).

Firstly, it looks as cool as fuck to have an (almost) full sized Marshall behind you.

Secondly, it sounds big. You feel good playing it.

Thirdly, the cab is almost easier to carry than a HRD due to the two handles, and I am planning on installing some caisters.

For many years I gigged combos with pedal boards and I'm loving just plugging straight into the big boy Marshall. I'll probably go back to combos one day but for now I'm loving this setup.

We play with IEMs and I either mic the cab or from from the XLR out. Last gig I only had 1 IEM in to appreciate the awesomness of the band sound but still hear the other instruments and vocals clearly.

Ps. The JVM was modded by Dan Gower so it absolutely growls!!!!!

fretmeister · October 2023

ICBM said:

fretmeister said:

Nile Rodgers has never ever been a serious player as he goes straight into the desk with a bit of compression and a good EQ.

Not on stage he doesn't - he uses two Fender Devilles. (I think the 4x10" version.)

So he's serious on stage but not in the studio.

CaseOfAce · October 2023

Interestingly bass players seem to be able to get away with bigger rigs than guitarists these days.

Watching Texas playing Radio 2 in the Park on iPlayer last night- the bass player had a monster Ampeg SVT rig behind the lead singer - quite how he's convinced his road manager the cartage is worth paying for would be interesting!

The guitarists? Brace yourselves...

Sharleen playing at times a gorgeous green Gretsch straight in(?) into a Mark III Fender Hot Rod Deluxe - you can tell cos it's got the cheap plastic handle on the top.
The guitarist played a Gibson into what looked like a 30 or so watt Blackstar (with a small pedalboard - though I only really heard 2 sounds during the set - clean and dirt).

(as always with bands I see on TV these days - I spent most of the time wondering what is "live"and what was track... but ...if they were using tracks it was done very very subtley).

Audience size? 35,000.

There's a sizeable chasm between the real world and what gets discussed on guitar forums.

p90fool · October 2023

Audiences of 35,000 might be your real world but they're not mine.

More important than audience size, they will also have their own sound engineer, making amp power way less critical.

impmann · October 2023

CaseOfAce said:

The guitarist played a Gibson into what looked like a 30 or so watt Blackstar (with a small pedalboard - though I only really heard 2 sounds during the set - clean and dirt).

Yup... it was an Artisan 30, in custom black leather. I helped build it.

To be fair though... they move a *serious* amount of air. Mental loud.

Yorkie · October 2023

impmann said:

To be fair though... they move a *serious* amount of air. Mental loud.

Yeah, but can it kill fleas. You see, there’s this other thread…

fretmeister · October 2023

CaseOfAce said:

Interestingly bass players seem to be able to get away with bigger rigs than guitarists these days.

Watching Texas playing Radio 2 in the Park on iPlayer last night- the bass player had a monster Ampeg SVT rig behind the lead singer - quite how he's convinced his road manager the cartage is worth paying for would be interesting!

The guitarists? Brace yourselves...

Sharleen playing at times a gorgeous green Gretsch straight in(?) into a Mark III Fender Hot Rod Deluxe - you can tell cos it's got the cheap plastic handle on the top.
The guitarist played a Gibson into what looked like a 30 or so watt Blackstar (with a small pedalboard - though I only really heard 2 sounds during the set - clean and dirt).

(as always with bands I see on TV these days - I spent most of the time wondering what is "live"and what was track... but ...if they were using tracks it was done very very subtley).

Audience size? 35,000.

There's a sizeable chasm between the real world and what gets discussed on guitar forums.

Bass players have always used whatever was available from the local hire company.

For years that was Ampeg SVT and 810 cabs. There’s thousands of them all over the world, and now there’s loads of Ashdown’s too because about 15 years ago Ampeg quality dropped like a stone for several years.

Many amp hire companies don’t have anything else.

Have a closer look next time though, I bet it’s not mic’d up. It will be a di from the back of the amp or a separate di box. The FOH signal might even come straight from a pedalboard with the amp adding nothing to the FOH sound.

The 810 will basically be a crap monitor that the bassist can’t hear when he goes off axis, and deafens him when he’s in front of it.

ScreamingDave · October 2023

I've just sold a big Marshall 2x12 for about half what I would have wanted and saw other sellers asking for them. I feel violated!

fretmeister · October 2023

Danny1969 said:

fretmeister said:

ICBM said:

What’s the most common bass amp on proper professional-level stages where someone else is being paid to move the gear so size and weight doesn’t matter?

Ampeg SVT and 8x10” cab - even though there are dozens of lighter and more powerful (though not necessarily louder or more authoritative sounding) modern amps.

So I can see 50W and 100W guitar amps being used for some time longer too.

At smaller gigs with amateur/semi-pro owners who have to carry their own gear, not so much...

I see more Ashdowns than Ampegs now.

Well that's generally because you need more Ashdowns ... they tend to break a lot

I think that used to be true - particularly when they first started making them abroad, but I'm not convinced now.

And their customer service is legendary.

ICBM · October 2023

fretmeister said:

I think that used to be true - particularly when they first started making them abroad, but I'm not convinced now.

And their customer service is legendary.

Actually the original UK-made Evos weren't very good either. It was always very noticeable that whenever you saw an Ashdown in use, there was always a spare - powered off but ready to go - sitting on top of it. Customer service only goes so far, if your amp dies at a gig you need an instant replacement.

The more recent ones have certainly improved a lot - when I was still doing repairs I noticed a sudden drop-off in the numbers of dead Ashdowns maybe around ten years ago.

I don't mind the 'fridge' - I don't find them that directional, but maybe I'm not pushing them very hard. I'm always happy to play through any amp I don't have to carry to the gig though - within reason, the only time I've drawn the line was at a Carlsbro 60W 1x12" combo... not snobbery, I just expected it would die mid-gig if I tried to get a usable volume out of it. (Especially with fuzz.)

fretmeister · October 2023

My first Ashdown was a UK built MAG400H head - the cheaper line. I gigged that for years and it was completely reliable.

I've now got a RM800Evo2 (Snappy name!) and it's been similarly good, that gets a thrashing every week. I bought it used about 18 months ago. I had no plans to buy it but I wanted something with onboard drive and a compressor so I could leave my pedals at home as often as possible, and that came up.

The drive is just right for adding a little grit - very subtle. The compressor is a pile of shit, but other than the Bergantino Forte HP I have never known a good on board bass amp compressor.

Roland · October 2023

I grew up with Marshall 50w and 100w amps. I remember the first time I saw Edgar Broughton play a 100w stack. I remember having a Marshall 100w and 4x12 myself and getting complaints, not from the immediate neighbours, but from people further down the street. Nowadays I use a modeller. My 50w 2x12 stays under the table.

Nerine said:

.... I think better PAs and where modellers are nowadays have pretty much killed them off in the smaller venues ...

As @Danny1969 says, there are places where high powered amps are useful. I don't play any of those venues, and my ears wouldn't handle the volume anyway.

Nerine said: Has the stack/half stack reached the end of its road? Will they regain popularity?

There will always be people who are interested in large valve amps, just as there are people interested in antique cars and aeroplanes. However sales demand will dwindle. Smaller amps and combos in the 30w area are a different question.

MtB · October 2023

This makes good reading - there's hope yet for a revival for my Sound City 50 Plus head. It was used for jam sessions every couple of weeks over a period of 6 years - from 2015 to 2021, and was totally reliable (unlike a few of the band members).

Hush · October 2023

In answer to the question, it's down to the individual player, personally my opinion is you don't need a big amp on stage, particarly at smaller venues, and at bigger venues as well, you would use a sound engineer, who would mic up your amp and throw it back to you through the monitors. So I don't buy into the big amp theory unless you are looking for head room for a clean sound. As regards amp modeling all is ok as long as you get it back through the monitors or IEM's, personally with IEM's I'm struggling to hear everything I need to, but no need for a big amp for me. Maybe I'm already half deaf!

ICBM · October 2023

Hush said:

So I don't buy into the big amp theory unless you are looking for head room for a clean sound.

It’s not just that - the tone from a big amp is quite different from a small one, even at the same volume.

p90fool · October 2023

Hush said:

In answer to the question, it's down to the individual player, personally my opinion is you don't need a big amp on stage, particarly at smaller venues, and at bigger venues as well, you would use a sound engineer, who would mic up your amp and throw it back to you through the monitors.

So instead of using an adequately powered amp you bring an underpowered amp then bring a mic + stand, a 150w powered monitor and an extra person to operate it all?

Yes I am being a little facetious obviously, but my amp needs to have enough power to be able to put the guitar at the correct mix level onstage in relation to the drums, otherwise you're all playing by numbers and not interacting dynamically like, y'know, musicians.

I've seen quite a few pub bands lately who use 15-20w combos without a good PA and you want to grab them by the scruff and play them a good commercial mix, instead of the current pub standard of crashing drums and cymbals plus railway announcer vocals and almost nothing else.

NickB · October 2023

When playing live in a pub I always mic up. Even with a 50 watt combo. The reason being that the 1st 2 rows absorb the sound. Today I am playing the Swanage Blues Festival with my Cornell Romany 12 but will be using it in conjunction with my Fryette Powerstation to give it some heft.

Norlin4life · October 2023

danishbacon said:

For what it's worth, here's what October Drift (indie) were using at their kick off gig recently.

I don't know exactly what the gear is, but at least the guitars, 1 marshall head and 1 fender combo.

It sounded massive and the crowd was mesmerised.

The bass player seems to have put his head on backwards!

Danny1969 · October 2023

ICBM said:

Hush said:

So I don't buy into the big amp theory unless you are looking for head room for a clean sound.

It’s not just that - the tone from a big amp is quite different from a small one, even at the same volume.

I think the same, which is why I don't like any of the little practice amps for playing indoors. I would rather use my Hot Rod or BC30 .... won't be any louder but will sound bigger and more satisfying.

My main rig for the last 15 years has been a rack system with a 200 Watt Marshall into a stereo 4 x 12". This is a real beast and capable of insane levels of volume but still sounds great at low pub volume.
I'm always mic'ed up anyway because I use iEM's.

One thing to be careful of is too low amp volume onstage. You might think this could never be a problem if it's miced up but if the amp volume is too low it creates 2 problems.

The people right at the front in the middle won't really hear the guitar well because they are out of the PA speakers coverage.

Turning up the guitar will only result in turning up the drums as well. Because a typical guitar mic like a 57 can't pick up the guitar and ignore everything else. It simply picks up everything. If the guitar amp is too quiet then there will be as much drums in that mic as there there is guitar and turning up the guitar on the desk for a solo will just turn up the drums as well.
I've seen many a rookie engineer think the more quiet the backline is the better and then run into this issue. It was also the bane of my life when mixing live recordings of bands.

Vocals aside the band should sound roughly balanced with the PA off. Then go from there.

ICBM · October 2023

Danny1969 said:

One thing to be careful of is too low amp volume onstage. You might think this could never be a problem if it's miced up but if the amp volume is too low it creates 2 problems.

The people right at the front in the middle won't really hear the guitar well because they are out of the PA speakers coverage.

Turning up the guitar will only result in turning up the drums as well. Because a typical guitar mic like a 57 can't pick up the guitar and ignore everything else. It simply picks up everything. If the guitar amp is too quiet then there will be as much drums in that mic as there there is guitar and turning up the guitar on the desk for a solo will just turn up the drums as well.
I've seen many a rookie engineer think the more quiet the backline is the better and then run into this issue. It was also the bane of my life when mixing live recordings of bands.

Vocals aside the band should sound roughly balanced with the PA off. Then go from there.

This. There’s no point, and as you say it’s actually counterproductive, to have the stage levels too low relative to the drums.

You don’t necessarily need to have the amps as part of the out-front mix though, they can be pointing inwards and/or upwards on the stage so the band can hear each other but they’re off-axis out front, which can help stop ‘beam of death’ problems in the audience too.

Nerine · October 2023

p90fool said:

Hush said:

In answer to the question, it's down to the individual player, personally my opinion is you don't need a big amp on stage, particarly at smaller venues, and at bigger venues as well, you would use a sound engineer, who would mic up your amp and throw it back to you through the monitors.

So instead of using an adequately powered amp you bring an underpowered amp then bring a mic + stand, a 150w powered monitor and an extra person to operate it all?

Yes I am being a little facetious obviously, but my amp needs to have enough power to be able to put the guitar at the correct mix level onstage in relation to the drums, otherwise you're all playing by numbers and not interacting dynamically like, y'know, musicians.

I've seen quite a few pub bands lately who use 15-20w combos without a good PA and you want to grab them by the scruff and play them a good commercial mix, instead of the current pub standard of crashing drums and cymbals plus railway announcer vocals and almost nothing else.

100% this.

Wazmeister · October 2023

fretmeister said:

Jetfire said:

@sweepy what's a serious player?

Obviously not:

Metallica / Dream Theatre / Winery Dogs / Mastodon / Theatre pit musicians / Josh after he admitted he was using a Kemper for all the pedal demos / Keith Urban / Dave Murray / Def Leppard / Devin Townsend / Paul Gilbert / Alex Skolnick / Andy Sneap / Bumblefoot / Black Stone Cherry / Garbage / Billy Sheehan / Phil Bynoe / and endless full time professional session musicians.

Satriani was a serious player, then he did an album with only plugins and then became a non serious player instantly. John Meyer was serious until he toured with a Kemper, but then became serious again when he got an amp out.

Nile Rodgers has never ever been a serious player as he goes straight into the desk with a bit of compression and a good EQ.

None of them are serious players.

The simple fact is, the kids are growing up with modelling and plugins and then when they get their first valve amp that doesn't sound anything like their modeller they often go back to what they know. And the 9 million sounds they can have instead of just variations on a single theme. They don't care about obsolesce as they are already programmed to need a new smart phone every 3 years.

100W raging stacks are now a stage prop. They are too loud in a pub, and unnecessary in a stadium.

Don't get me wrong - I love a good valve amp. The JCM800 is probably my favourite amp of all time, but it needs cranking to sound full and there's no pub with sound meters that will tolerate that, so it needs attenuating or run clean with pedals (what's the point of an 800?) so a 20W is a much better choice. There are others with a better control system to allow a great tone at much lower volume but it's all weight and extra pedals, cables, and mic-ing up etc etc that just isn't needed much anymore. XLR from a modeller into the PA - boom. Job done.

It's not the next gen buying £3000+ super amps from Friedman / Mesa etc. It's the middle aged with a bit of cash to spare. The next gen are buying modellers they can use for live and recording and not bothering with valve amps or learning how to mic up cabs and so on.

I often think about buying a good valve amp again just to have one for when they do stop making them, but then I question if I would actually use it enough. I certainly couldn't be arsed to take it out for a gig anymore. And then I'd have to go down the pedal rabbit hole again, probably costing more than the amp & cab did.

Whichever way it goes though, 'serious player' snobbery is nonsense.

Brilliant post.

This man knows…

Wazmeister · October 2023

Big Amps for me personally usually mean 2 things;

1. A physically large amp, more than a 1x12 - maybe head and 2x12/4x12

2. A loud wattage amp

The former are declining for us mere mortal guitarists; edging or at middle age, with no roadies.
In terms of volume, most venues are much quieter now - a 1x12 will easily suffice.

No need or purpose for 100w, as beautiful as they are !

Mind you, some 15-40w can be really loud. My own experiences such as Matchless Nighthawk, Two Rock SS, etc etc.

Ive played a few too, Mesa Kingsnake and Jim Kelly that would blow the lintels out of your house…

Bolters · October 2023

In my experience big amps have a sound that is hard to get live out of a smaller wattage unit. You can get great tones at all levels of power, but it’s subjective. I’ve never have the same inspiring, visceral experience with small amps or modelers as I have with a Marshall 1959 or 2203.

I built a JTM100 with a few mods running 6550s and I’ve been hard pressed to find anything that sounds even close.

The audience may not know or care what I’m playing, but I do.

You do see a fair few big Two Rocks being used on stages still.

Bolters · October 2023

Wazmeister said:

Big Amps for me personally usually mean 2 things;

1. A physically large amp, more than a 1x12 - maybe head and 2x12/4x12

2. A loud wattage amp

The former are declining for us mere mortal guitarists; edging or at middle age, with no roadies.
In terms of volume, most venues are much quieter now - a 1x12 will easily suffice.

No need or purpose for 100w, as beautiful as they are !

Mind you, some 15-40w can be really loud. My own experiences such as Matchless Nighthawk, Two Rock SS, etc etc.

Ive played a few too, Mesa Kingsnake and Jim Kelly that would blow the lintels out of your house…

The King Snake is one of my ‘keepers’. I traded it a with a guy few years ago and always regretted it. Ended up buying it back off of him, stuck in a bias pot, and play it daily.

It is extremely loud, but the master is very good and I’ll often run an attenuator at -3db, even in the 10Watt mode.

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Will “big amps” come back into fashion?

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