India Moon Landing...

RandallFlagg · August 2023

My original post was meant to be funny based on the clearly ridiculous premise that the animation of the moon lander in the video was some how part of a deliberate moon landing faking and a conspiracy by dint of my ironic assumption that the animated video was being passed off as a video of a real landing.

It's a nod to the many US moon landing conspiracies from the past where is was even suggested that they were filmed in Hollywood.

It has nothing to do with what nation conducted the landing, if it had been the English, Welsh, Australians, Americans or even people from Norfolk, then the funny side I see remains the same.

Some of the puns that followed played on food name puns for space/moon landings, intended in a light hearted playful manner and were in no way intended to cause offence, and again, I would look for puns whatever nation landed on the moon. Perhaps some people would be offended by food puns based on their national dishes, perhaps some wouldn't. I'm not sure I would be offended by a Yorkshire Pudding or Melton Mowbray Pork Pie moon landing based joke.

Bering labelled with stereotypes for British people doesn't offend me in any way and can also be very funny. I look to laugh in this life as often as I can as it is good for your health.

If anyone finds the original post racist then please feel free to ask the mods to delete it and ban me from the forum forever.

Sporky · August 2023

I thought the original post was quite funny.

Chalky · August 2023

You did a good job @RandallFlagg but any topic these days, especially when mentioned with any humour, is immediately ripe for comment by the politically obsessed.

darthed1981 · August 2023

The OP isn't racist.

Debating whether India should have a space program with its poverty problem isn't racist.

Making jokes about curry and corner shops and call centres is racist, no matter how well intended or humorous.

Not sure why that's unclear. It's also got fuck all to do with politics.

Offset · August 2023

Sporky said:

Offset said:

Why don't you address the massive disparity between rich and poor in India in the context of their moon landing

For exactly the same reason you won't address the racism question.

Because you don't feel you need to? OK, fair enough.

Sporky · August 2023

Offset said:

Sporky said:

Offset said:

Why don't you address the massive disparity between rich and poor in India in the context of their moon landing

For exactly the same reason you won't address the racism question.

Because you don't feel you need to? OK, fair enough.

Argh - sorry, I meant to put a smiley on that one.

I was genuinely interested, and as usual on the Internet that turned into getting stuck in a rabbit hole. Sorry.

Can we skip ahead to "let's never fight again"?

Offset · August 2023

Sporky said:

Offset said:

Sporky said:

Offset said:

Why don't you address the massive disparity between rich and poor in India in the context of their moon landing

For exactly the same reason you won't address the racism question.

Because you don't feel you need to? OK, fair enough.

Argh - sorry, I meant to put a smiley on that one.

I was genuinely interested, and as usual on the Internet that turned into getting stuck in a rabbit hole. Sorry.

Can we skip ahead to "let's never fight again"?

More than happy to do so @Sporky :-)

No apology necessary.

BillDL · August 2023

Good. Glad that's all sorted out. Can I now post a link to a video clip of Spike Milligan's Pakistani Daleks?

Dominic · August 2023

darthed1981 said:

Kilgore said:

darthed1981 said:

Might we maybe be a bit offended? Despite the fact that globally, a lot of people see the British as fat, drunken vulgar or violent slobs obsessed with a dumb sport and historically mostly murderers, thieves and pirates?

Argh!

Popular literature, TV and film, children's books and toys, etc, etc. We shouldn't feel ashamed about bringing 'pirates' to a global audience.

I know you are joking, but just in case anyone is ignorant of it...

British wealth, particularly in the Tudor period, grew massively due to piracy, state-sponsored so officially "privateering" - mostly of Spanish ships around the Caribbean and returning from South America. Sir Francis Drake, while yes he was a notable sailor, gained his fame, wealth and rank from piracy.

The Spanish Armada was launched, largely, as a last gasp "please knock off all the piracy" gesture from the Spanish, who were losing noticeable wealth from their (unpleasant, murderous, genocidal) rule of their South American colonies. Elizabeth I paid off all the national debt run up by her idiot father quite quickly, due to piracy.

Even in the height of the British Empire in the 19th century, the Royal Navy had a generous and complex prize system to encourage ships to be taken, not sunk, to transfer that wealth to Britain. Taking a treasure ship, rare as it was, would make the Captain a very rich man, and even the lowliest seaman could expect a massive payday.

So yes, the British... conquerors, murderers, pillagers, pirates... occasional guardians of democracy and fair play, historically speaking.

Probably worth commenting as well, that in the 18th-19th century, to not be conquering was to be conquered, and Britain was noticeably more decent and humane an occupier, by and large, than many other imperial powers.

However, I suspect the memory of Britain in India is not a fond one. We may have built universities and railways, but we also were partly responsible for the unspeakable bloodshed of partition, not to mention the many, many atrocities committed over a century of direct rule.

Piracy was not a British invention although we were very good at it ......it reached it's Zenith in the same way that drug dealers work today with what they call Taxman operations ....this is where powerful operators raid smaller dealers and forcibly steal their stash and their money earnt from dealing . The British preyed upon Spanish and Portugese Conquistadors and traders to plunder their ill-gotten gains on ships laden with Central and South American Gold etc on their way back home .
People associate Piracy with ships and the Sea but Land Piracy/raiding has existed throughout time .
Of course there were Barbary Pirates since the 5th Century and middle ages but also highly organised Pirate Operations on Land from China across to Venice on the Silk Road .....this was how Tamerlane funded his original forces.
There are a lot of good points in the Darthed commentary especially " ....not to be conquering was to be conquered " So true.
Here's an irony ........the memory of Britain in India ....of course the General Gordons , Bengal Famine ,Amritsar Massacre etc were all British atrocities .....I don't think Britain can be blamed for Partition as this was really the only option for a huge nation on the brink of a full-on religious civil war stoked by the Pandits of the time .
.........and yet , as somebody who has lived briefly in India ,has Indian family ,ex-spouse,and many Indian friends I have never encountered such an Anglophile mentality amongst a subjugated nation .Despite the history and the cultural difference there seems to still be a very deep and genuine affinity......I also think the English class and Indian caste system have an historic and deep parallel similarity that is only just starting to fade.

Chalky · August 2023

It seems to be the fashion to blame Britain for Partition these days, completely ignoring the 50+ years preceding it where Muslims built up their desire for it. Homes of Pakistani immigrants here used to always have a picture of Ali Jinnah on the wall, venerating him as the founder of Pakistan. He campaigned for Partition, including organising support for Britain in WW2 when Gandhi organised against support, because Ali Jinnah knew it would aid his argument for the British to help create Pakistan.

If Britain had come up with a different solution, modern critics would have made accusations of "white saviour"....

guitartango · August 2023

Jfingers said:

I think I may have started this long standing argument by doing name calling.

I didn't mean to cause a rift.

My Indian friends have been slightly offended by things said in this thread, they understand however that casual racism was the norm in the old days and so just laugh at it and the perpetrators.

I am sorry that your friends have been offended by this thread, my joke about opening up a new call centre was just a joke and not a stereotype of Indian people.

Not sure its casual racism

"Casual racism is one form of racism. It refers to conduct involving negative stereotypes or prejudices about people on the basis of race, colour or ethnicity.

Examples include jokes, off-handed comments, and exclusion of people from social situations on the basis of race."

Am i being Negative ?

littlegreenman · August 2023

guitartango said:

Jfingers said:

I think I may have started this long standing argument by doing name calling.

I didn't mean to cause a rift.

My Indian friends have been slightly offended by things said in this thread, they understand however that casual racism was the norm in the old days and so just laugh at it and the perpetrators.

I am sorry that your friends have been offended by this thread, my joke about opening up a new call centre was just a joke and not a stereotype of Indian people.

Not sure its casual racism
"Casual racism is one form of racism. It refers to conduct involving negative stereotypes or prejudices about people on the basis of race, colour or ethnicity.
Examples include jokes, off-handed comments, and exclusion of people from social situations on the basis of race."
Am i being Negative ?

Do you see how this works yet? Not having a go at you personally and I don't doubt you held no malice when you posted, but I see this all the time, where "just joking" is the cover for more sinister intent. Again, not saying that was your intent. But it was a bit lame.

guitartango · August 2023

littlegreenman said:

guitartango said:

Jfingers said:

I think I may have started this long standing argument by doing name calling.

I didn't mean to cause a rift.

My Indian friends have been slightly offended by things said in this thread, they understand however that casual racism was the norm in the old days and so just laugh at it and the perpetrators.

I am sorry that your friends have been offended by this thread, my joke about opening up a new call centre was just a joke and not a stereotype of Indian people.

Not sure its casual racism
"Casual racism is one form of racism. It refers to conduct involving negative stereotypes or prejudices about people on the basis of race, colour or ethnicity.
Examples include jokes, off-handed comments, and exclusion of people from social situations on the basis of race."
Am i being Negative ?

Do you see how this works yet? Not having a go at you personally and I don't doubt you held no malice when you posted, but I see this all the time, where "just joking" is the cover for more sinister intent. Again, not saying that was your intent. But it was a bit lame.

Oh I see how this works , no sinister intent on my behalf. It also depends how you define my joke as well ??. No Mention of Race , Colour etc.

littlegreenman · August 2023

guitartango said:

littlegreenman said:

guitartango said:

Jfingers said:

I think I may have started this long standing argument by doing name calling.

I didn't mean to cause a rift.

My Indian friends have been slightly offended by things said in this thread, they understand however that casual racism was the norm in the old days and so just laugh at it and the perpetrators.

I am sorry that your friends have been offended by this thread, my joke about opening up a new call centre was just a joke and not a stereotype of Indian people.

Not sure its casual racism
"Casual racism is one form of racism. It refers to conduct involving negative stereotypes or prejudices about people on the basis of race, colour or ethnicity.
Examples include jokes, off-handed comments, and exclusion of people from social situations on the basis of race."
Am i being Negative ?

Do you see how this works yet? Not having a go at you personally and I don't doubt you held no malice when you posted, but I see this all the time, where "just joking" is the cover for more sinister intent. Again, not saying that was your intent. But it was a bit lame.

Oh I see how this works , no sinister intent on my behalf. It also depends how you define my joke as well ??. No Mention of Race , Colour etc.

guitartango said:

Is it for a new Scammers Call Centre.... Good morning this is Microshaft calling from the Moon, your computer is infected with a virus, press 1 to speak to Captain Kork , Press 2 for Accounts

True, no mention of race or colour. But surely you can see the tone? The inference? Like I said, I have no doubt you meant no offence with your joke, but regardless, it was, at best, a little lame.

Tannin · August 2023

Something that competent economists and historians know perfectly well but most people don't is that the wealth of Britain is a result of the rape of India.

The Industrial Revolution needed two things before it could happen. Eny skoolbo kno that one of them was new technology, which is wrong. Technology (for example the spinning jenny, and engines to power it) was a consequence of the Industrial Revolution, not a root cause.

The first thing that had to happen was a change in social organisation such that people's labour could be regulated and organised. The whole notion of forcing workers to come to a large, central location at a particular time every day was new. The idea of forcing people to (e.g.) weave cloth in set ways at set times was new. Traditionally, workers operated at home, in their own time and at their own pace, and sold the finished product. Organisation into "factories" was new. It was done to increase productivity and decrease the amount paid to workers for each item and it happened well before the invention and introduction of machinery.

The second thing that had to happen was both social and economic. People had to stop thinking of wealth as something to have (piling up stacks of gold plates and piles of diamonds in the basement) and start thinking of it as something to use (building a factory, expanding a business), and there had to be enough spare wealth to make the enormous investments the Industrial Revolution was based on.

This is where India comes in. The massive infusion of wealth which enabled the Industrial Revolution came from India directly (by military conquest), and indirectly from South and Central America (largely via piracy - the Spanish and Portuguese stole it from the America at gunpoint; and the British stole a lot of it at sea and by raids - again at gunpoint).

Now all of this is an over-simplification (as any post of reasonable length on this topic must be). Nevertheless, the take-home message is that India's poverty and dysfunction today is directly and powerfully related to the UK's wealth and power today.

swiller · August 2023

Chalky · August 2023

"Something that competent economists and historians know perfectly well..."

Is their level of competency in your eyes related to how much they agree with you?

Tannin · August 2023

Chalky said:

"Something that competent economists and historians know perfectly well..."

Is their level of competency in your eyes related to how much they agree with you?

No. These are matters of readily verifiable historical fact, not just someone's opinion. Do some reading.

It is true provided that they are aware of the history of the Industrial Revolution at a level beyond what primary school children are taught.

All competent economists know this stuff - it is fundamental to any understanding of how economies develop. (This is not to say that "all economists know this stuff" - economics isn't known as "the dismal science" for nothing.)

As for historians, I should have said "all competent historians familiar with the period know perfectly well" as we shouldn't expect an expert on, say, the history of ancient Egypt to be familiar with European history through the 17th and 19th centuries. But any historian with any familiarity with the period knows this stuff, yes of course. It's pretty basic.

Chalky · August 2023

Your statement "India's poverty and dysfunction today is directly and powerfully related to the UK's wealth and power today." looks like a non-sequitur to me. Why is India's social dysfunction today caused by Britain today?

Creed_Clicks · August 2023

Cols said:

Well, there’s plenty of bitterness and xenophobia with a sprinkling of religious bigotry in this thread. Nice one chaps, keep it up.

Well done to the Indian Space Research Organisation. It’s an absolutely stupendous achievement.

To borrow someone's comment from the Rubiales thread:

"I wish I could say that is surprises me that, on a forum with an average age of "Oooooh, me back's gone," there are men arguing in favour of forgiving casual sexual assault of a female employee by a male senior manager, but it really doesn't."

Does seem to be a general theme on a lof of off topic threads. Auld lads trying to be funny, but it all comes across as a bit Jim Davidson / Roy Chubby Brown like.

Offset · September 2023

Blimey. Now they're off to the sun.

PolarityMan · September 2023

Just read that they are now launching a rocket towards the sun.

So I'm wondering....did anyone tell them it's made of fire or maybe they have something that needs destroyed?

Nitefly · September 2023

Anyone remember Ray Bradbury's short SF story, "The Golden Apples Of The Sun"? (Title pinched from W B Yeats). I remember reading it when I was a teen, but can't remember much about it.

*edit* blimey - just discovered it was published in 1953! Proper old-skool!

Jono111 · September 2023

PolarityMan said:

Just read that they are now launching a rocket towards the sun.

So I'm wondering....did anyone tell them it's made of fire or maybe they have something that needs destroyed?

It's going to take 4 months to get there so it will be mid winter and much cooler, Should be ok I reckon

boogieman · September 2023

Offset said:

Blimey. Now they're off to the sun.

And if you believe the BBC news, they’ve managed the whole mission for £36 mill. Whaaaat? That’s insane if it’s true…. I mean that’s probably the cost of keeping Charlie and Camilla in caviar and champagne for a year. Whatever, hats off to the Indian space agency, what a couple of superb achievements.

ICBM · September 2023

Despite the BBC headline, they're not actually going to the Sun - in fact, only about 1% of the way there. (I know more distance doesn't actually cost anything once the spacecraft is on an orbital trajectory!) They're going to the L1 Lagrange point, which is the null point between the Sun's and the Earth's gravitational fields, so the spacecraft will remain there with both an uninterrupted view of the Sun and a short communication path to the Earth.

springhead · September 2023

ICBM said:

Despite the BBC headline, they're not actually going to the Sun - in fact, only about 1% of the way there. (I know more distance doesn't actually cost anything once the spacecraft is on an orbital trajectory!) They're going to the L1 Lagrange point, which is the null point between the Sun's and the Earth's gravitational fields, so the spacecraft will remain there with both an uninterrupted view of the Sun and a short communication path to the Earth.

Billy Gibbons knows all about that place. Apparently they've got a lot of nice girls there....

SpoonMan · September 2023

boogieman said:

Offset said:

Blimey. Now they're off to the sun.

And if you believe the BBC news, they’ve managed the whole mission for £36 mill. Whaaaat? That’s insane if it’s true…. I mean that’s probably the cost of keeping Charlie and Camilla in caviar and champagne for a year. Whatever, hats off to the Indian space agency, what a couple of superb achievements.

That is pretty amazing.

Hopefully, if nothing else, they are proving that space exploration can be done much cheaper..ly.

Not sure why exactly, but I've always had a soft spot for India. It's one of the few places I'd really like to visit. Seems really quite different to anywhere else.
They have their problems, sure, but who doesn't?

boogieman · September 2023

SpoonMan said:

boogieman said:

Offset said:

Blimey. Now they're off to the sun.

And if you believe the BBC news, they’ve managed the whole mission for £36 mill. Whaaaat? That’s insane if it’s true…. I mean that’s probably the cost of keeping Charlie and Camilla in caviar and champagne for a year. Whatever, hats off to the Indian space agency, what a couple of superb achievements.

That is pretty amazing.

Hopefully, if nothing else, they are proving that space exploration can be done much cheaper..ly.

Not sure why exactly, but I've always had a soft spot for India. It's one of the few places I'd really like to visit. Seems really quite different to anywhere else.
They have their problems, sure, but who doesn't?

It’s a fascinating place, as long as you keep an open mind. A country that’s full of extremes…the poor literally live, eat and shit in the streets, while there is also conspicuous wealth and consumption going on. There’s some beautiful sights, but you’ll see horrifying things as well. The food can be incredible but you’re almost guaranteed to get the raging shits too. The caste system is still alive and kicking, which means the poorest rarely get a chance to better themselves, just by an accident of birth. There’s tiny kids sent out by parents and/or gang masters to beg and in fact you’ll get constantly badgered by beggars everywhere

I think the biggest contrast we saw was going to the Taj Mahal… it’s a stunning sight and the whole site is kept immaculately clean. When you come to leave it’s via a potholed, stinking road with raw sewage running in open gullies down the sides.

I’ve visited once and I’m glad I did, but I’d never want to go again.

Offset · September 2023

springhead said:

ICBM said:

Despite the BBC headline, they're not actually going to the Sun - in fact, only about 1% of the way there. (I know more distance doesn't actually cost anything once the spacecraft is on an orbital trajectory!) They're going to the L1 Lagrange point, which is the null point between the Sun's and the Earth's gravitational fields, so the spacecraft will remain there with both an uninterrupted view of the Sun and a short communication path to the Earth.

Billy Gibbons knows all about that place. Apparently they've got a lot of nice girls there....

Ah-hurgh hurgh hurgh hurgh.

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India Moon Landing...

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