The F1 thread

Haych · December 2021

OK, to clarify, Armstrong did cheat - I wasn't drawing comparison and suggesting Max was a cheat, maybe it was a bad analogy.

But there was always a question mark over his wins, even on some official lists there was an asterisk against his name which required a footnote.

I think the same will go down in the history books for MV's first title, there will always be that asterisk and the footnote, not that he cheated, but that circumstances surrounding the win were not normal.

S56035 · December 2021

.

brooom · December 2021

stickyfiddle said:

Cols said:

From what I could see, Verstappen went for his usual “Out of the way, Max coming through” overtake, running straight on to the limit of the track and giving the other driver the choice of an accident or getting out of the way. Hamilton - once again - ran off track to avoid getting torpedoed by Max.

This

TimmyO said:

The commentators, in the heat of the moment, were wrong. The corner includes the braking zone - the gap WAS handed back to what it was at the start of the braking zone

And this.

Max was only ahead because he braked so late there was no way of getting around the corner without pushing the other guy off. In other incidents we've often seen drivers in similar positions get penalised for it, never mind penalising the one getting squeezed out. Had Max braked at an appropriate early point to get around the corner while leaving room he wouldn't have been ahead, and at the beginning of this season that was the rule ("All the time you have to leave a space", from Alonso about Rosberg iirc). This year they've let Max not leave a space when fighting Hamilton, until Brazil where they didn't even require him to stay on the track himself.

The FIA has consistently moved the goalposts for Max ahead of everyone because it's exciting to watch, but it's getting really tiring for the rest of us.

You only have to look at Max's move on Sainz after the pitstops to see that Max knows how to do it. Sainz wasn't even trying and he still left him room.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-verstappen-picks-off-sainz-at-turn-6.1718949813873911804.html

A lot of Brundle's commentary this week felt like he was making an effort to be harsher on Lewis having read comments that he's biased towards the Brits, tbh. He was basically the only one in the entire Sky team defending Masi at the end as well.

also isn't the overtaking car supposed to leave a car's width within the track limits. MV literally parked the car in the middle of the corner, zero space left, that's not driving or racing, that's going in a straight line... if he wants to be a world class driver, perhaps drawing some inspiration from how Sergio Perez did the defending is in order.

welshboyo · December 2021

Genuine Question here:

What are Mercedes actually shouting about as they have still won the Constructor Championship though? Which in turn generates a shitload of cash into Mercedes..

The Driver World Championship is Lewis's bag (yes, OK he is in a Merc and I get that) and he has apparently asked MB to stop pushing, I can see MB's driver support and all that but does Lewis vs Max actually winning the Championship actually generate extra income into Merc as a constructor?

What would have happened if another driver had won that race - MB would still have won the Constructors title and MV woudl have been champion on race wins - would they still have moaned.

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Boromedic · December 2021

It's about the fairness of the victory, if the roles were reversed and Lewis was given the green light to win over Max, I'd be equally annoyed even though Max is a cock and I don't like him at all.

The stewards/race director made a call that ensured Max would be champion, that's the part that is bothering the sports fans. We have discussed this above, and thats the general consensus. It's not about Max Vs Lewis it's about the FIA and the race director effectively deciding who wins.

Simonh · December 2021

Boromedic said:

It's about the fairness of the victory, if the roles were reversed and Lewis was given the green light to win over Max, I'd be equally annoyed even though Max is a cock and I don't like him at all.

The stewards/race director made a call that ensured Max would be champion, that's the part that is bothering the sports fans. We have discussed this above, and thats the general consensus. It's not about Max Vs Lewis it's about the FIA and the race director effectively deciding who wins.

Very much this, but in addition to that it is a culmination of a year of very poor decisions made by masi in the name of the "show" and while I do agree the show needs to be improved if F1 is to have a future it is not Masi's job to engineer that show.

gavin_axecaster · December 2021

By only allowing the lapped cars between LH and MV to unlap themselves Masi gave Max 2 advantages - he didn't have to overtake anyone to get to LH and he didn't have to defend his position from behind as he had lapped cars blocking 3rd place Sainz behind him. Even if LH had new tyres, that alone would have been a big advantage.

Masi really cannot defend his action here under his remit as Race Director. He made decisions that had no precedent, directly in opposition to the rules, to "go racing" That's not his job. His job is to ensure the safety of drivers/marshals and see the rules are followed and enforced.

Fretwired · December 2021

welshboyo said:

Genuine Question here:

What are Mercedes actually shouting about ..

The way the rules were bent/interpretted. Mercedes based their decisions on their interpretation of the rules and experience of what has happened in the past. This year there have been some inconsistent decisions in which it could be argued the rules were not followed to the letter to allow racing to continue. F1 is an expensive rules-based sport. If Masi is going to make up or bend the rules on a whim it makes it hard for each team's strategists to plan/anticipate what might happen for any given scenario. It also forces Horner and Wolff to lobby Masi as we have seen all season.

For example, before the race, Masi said there wouldn't be a red flag were a crash to happen on the very corner Latifi crashed on. Why did he do this pre-race? In allowing Max and Lewis the chance to fight he ignored Carlos in P3. He was denied a chance to fight Max for P2.

I doubt the FIA will change the result - Mercedes may win a moral victory and a tightening of the rules for next year to avoid this happening again.

stickyfiddle · December 2021

Yeah absolutely. The general guidance of "don't push anyone off the track" when attacking or defending isn't exactly complicated...

Anyway, I agree that the WDC shouldn't be given to Lewis. It's far too late for that and I don't think he wants this one now.

What is good is the Jean Todt is stepping down so the new guy coming in (identity tbc later this week) has a great opportunity to bring in sensible changes quickly while distancing himself from this shitshow because it wasn't under his leadership and while they technically didn't breach the regs (sort of, maybe...) it was certainly confusing and something they will take steps to avoid happening in future.

If it were me, I'd keep Masi in charge but insist that he gets a team with very clear lines or reporting and responsbility. During a any on-track session he should be leaning on their guidance 99%. I'm not clear on whether he already has a team but either way it's clear the current setup isn't quite fit for purpose.

What is so frustrating is they actually had time during the VSC (at least a minute - not just a few seconds) to make the decision whether to have a full SC or a red flag. Clearly Merc looked at this and decided to plump for track position because under a red flag they'd get new tyres anyway, and under a full SC pitting would cost them track position and be a heavy risk of finishing under the SC. Likewise RB realised they were guaranteed to be right behind Lewis on fresh softs however it played out.

If Masi had been more aware of the timing issue I'm quite sure he'd have thrown a red flag instead - he's probably wishing he'd done exactly that. It would have still been harsh on Lewis but unquestionably also been equitable treatment of the drivers and a hell of a story for the last 5 lap sprint to the finish. The impression is that he just isn't as talented at this stuff as the top guys in the top teams, so he needs help.

Fretwired · December 2021

stickyfiddle said:

If Masi had been more aware of the timing issue I'm quite sure he'd have thrown a red flag instead - he's probably wishing he'd done exactly that.

Apparently, Masi and the stewards agreed before the race even started that there wouldn't be a red flag.

goldtop · December 2021

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

rlw · December 2021

Why F1 cannot have slow zones like Le Mans is beyond me. The incident at the end only required the other drivers to pass at 50kph keeping left through the zone and then race around the rest of the circuit. Bringing out the pace car would then have been unnecessary.

And apropos the comment about Jean Todt's replacements, the favourite at the moment seems to be all in favour of the show and the money it generates so I'm not holding my breath.

VimFuego · December 2021

Haych said:

Whether Mercedes appeal or not, and if they do, whether they win or not, the damage is done.

Mercedes might get some redress, financially or otherwise but the reputation of the sport is now well dodgy, in my humble opinion, more so than it ever has been before - and it's had some pretty dodgy moments.

I think it would be wrong for the WDC to change because of legal action, as far as I care, that ship has sailed, Max is now world champion and that should stand, although it will always do so in the same way Lance Armstrong's seven Tour de France wins always had a question mark over them (until Oprah).

Hopefully F1 will recover from this and hopefully it will be the catalyst for change at the top and in the FIA that's desperately needed, because they are out of touch with the sport and with the fans.

seems to me, looking at it from the outside, is that the race was decided by the "lawyers", that must leave a lingering sense of even the most diehard that it wasn't fully deserved, it was a proxy win really, a hollow victory. If merc appeal and are successful, the yet again the "lawyers" will have decided who won the race, and the other set of diehards will also feel that it's a bit of a hollow victory.
One of the great things about sports are that they are not exact science; it's played (and refereed) by people, and people make mistakes. France V NZ in 07, Wayne Barnes missed an obvious forward pass from France that led to the try that beat N and resulted in their going home early. Scotland V Aus in 2015, the ref ruled an offside against Scot when the ball came of an Aus player, Aus kicked the penalty and went through to the next round.
Obviously the manner in which Hamilton lost leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but the random element is that price we pay for the drama of sport.

melod · December 2021

People blaming Mercedes on wrong strategy need to understand that choices are made based on how rules are applied/understood. You can’t make a strategic choice based on a scenario that has never existed.

The scenarios they had to deal with was

a) All Lapped cars need to unlap
b)Lapped cars won’t unlap

Based on those two, staying out was the right choice because under (a) the race would end and under (b) max doesn’t have enough time.

The scenario that occurred had no real precedent so you can’t really plan for it but even if you did, it’s the only scenario that either options give max the win (stay out on old tyres or lose track position and have one lap to fight a car on similar tyres).

The only mistake Mercedes did was not to cover max on the second tyre change, although I am not that sure that would have worked either when someone behind you has softer and fresh rubber.

stickyfiddle · December 2021

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

If Masi had been more aware of the timing issue I'm quite sure he'd have thrown a red flag instead - he's probably wishing he'd done exactly that.

Apparently, Masi and the stewards agreed before the race even started that there wouldn't be a red flag.

Which is utterly insane if true. If anything they'd have been better to agree anything in the last 10 laps would be a red flag! But I guess this was at least partly a knee-jerk reaction to having so many in KSA

welshboyo · December 2021

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

melod · December 2021

And of course, I wouldn’t like the result to be overturned.

I also would like to see how Max’s approach of “pass or crash” works when he is the one trying to retain the championship.

I am happy for Newey though. He looks like a decent person and looked a bit frail.

stickyfiddle · December 2021

@welshboyo It's money, of course! Mercedes have utterly dominated the hybrid era of F1 - 7 WDCs and 8 WCCs on the bounce since 2014. And their car business (and particularly the sporty AMG stuff) is in a much better place than it was a decade ago. It's not like they're suddenly going to take LH off all their marketing, but it does open the door for people to say "you got beaten by a twat driving a fizzy drinks can", which takes the shine off somewhat!

I can't remember the numbers but a few years back they stated the investment (which has largely paid for itself now via prize money and sponsorship) was worth something equivalent to billions in goodwill and marketing spend elsewhere.

welshboyo · December 2021

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

@goldtop ;Perez, best driver of the lot..

@stickyfiddle I know, its all about the money and the "let them race" bollocks they have rolled out is just pure bullshit, it was the case 20 or 30 years ago but now its all about Social Media and Advertising....

stickyfiddle · December 2021

You seem to have misspelled "George Russell" a bit there!!

goldtop · December 2021

welshboyo said:

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

@goldtop ;Perez, best driver of the lot..

Still don't understand. You said Bottas is more exciting than Hamilton. Please explain how?

And as good as Perez was on Sunday (and he was excellent), he still couldn't hold off the 'unexciting' Hamilton. Even when Perez had nothing to lose and Hamilton had everything to lose.

I suspect that - like quite a few F1 followers - you don't like Hamilton. That's fine, but it'd be more honest to just say that. Because when you say he's not 'exciting' after the F1 racing he's done for 14 years, it looks a bit ... daft.

Hamilton was exciting from the day he turned up. He reminded me of someone else who arrived and made everyone sit up and take notice: Valentino Rossi in the 500cc GPs. Both are cut from the same cloth.

Fretwired · December 2021

welshboyo said:

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

To force the FIA to act so Masi and co are at least consistent next year. I don't think Toto thinks the FIA will change the result. F1 has a new poster boy as a winner which is what it wanted all along and is why IMHO Masi acted the way he did.

gavin_axecaster · December 2021

I don't think the FIA necessarily "wanted" MV to win. They want drama to get bums on seats/PPV.

If LH had somehow been able to hold MV off and had won, the FIA would probably still been happy. They could still market next season off the drama/controversy of this one, regardless of the actual result.

welshboyo · December 2021

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

goldtop said:

welshboyo said:

As an FYI, I'm no Max or Lewis fan - there are other drivers in those teams that excite me more....

Bottas?

(notsureifserious.gif here)

@goldtop ;Perez, best driver of the lot..

Still don't understand. You said Bottas is more exciting than Hamilton. Please explain how?

And as good as Perez was on Sunday (and he was excellent), he still couldn't hold off the 'unexciting' Hamilton. Even when Perez had nothing to lose and Hamilton had everything to lose.

I suspect that - like quite a few F1 followers - you don't like Hamilton. That's fine, but it'd be more honest to just say that. Because when you say he's not 'exciting' after the F1 racing he's done for 14 years, it looks a bit ... daft.

Hamilton was exciting from the day he turned up. He reminded me of someone else who arrived and made everyone sit up and take notice: Valentino Rossi in the 500cc GPs. Both are cut from the same cloth.

Read ALL my responses before digging in - I have already said I am no Max or Lewis fan - in fact you have re-quoted that exact statement back at me..so not sure where you are getting lost there??

I have also NOT said Bottas - ok, I'll admit I said "teams" but at no point did I say Bottas - Perez has been good all season though and stand by my views - his tyre management, his grit, hard work and determination all 1st class stuff IMO - we need more like him

Sorry to say I've never found Hamilton exciting and I just can't take to him, yes, he is a very good driver and at some points he has amazed me at how he claws his way back through from way down the pack, perhaps him being such a good driver and being way out in front for most of the time is the bit that doesn't excite or interest me - does that make me less of a fan of F1? no...so put your claws away....you could say that supporting the (should have been) clear winner is a safe bet too - much like the old Man U joke..

Each to their own, but I find the likes of Perez, Sainz battling mid-field to be better than the usual up-front dirge that we see these days.

welshboyo · December 2021

Fretwired said:

welshboyo said:

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

To force the FIA to act so Masi and co are at least consistent next year. I don't think Toto thinks the FIA will change the result. F1 has a new poster boy as a winner which is what it wanted all along and is why IMHO Masi acted the way he did.

Shouldn't be like that...the FIA are obviously blind like you say and probably like the Red Bull moniker reaching a wider, younger audience..still at least Netflix will get decent viewing figures too...ooh, did I just say that out loud....was that obvious too

I think next season will be very very interesting....

DesVegas · December 2021

Go Kimi!!

Boromedic · December 2021

welshboyo said:

OK, Masi (knob) and the whole Last Lap debarcle that totally spoilt an already deteriorating season aside, MERC have still won the Constructor's Championship which as I understand generates the most cash into Mercedes/Toto as a team - Correct?

So, why the court room drama's? - is that purely for Lewis's sake and Lewis being used as evidence of the smoking gun for Merc to go to town on the FIA/Masi thing - If so, I see that as unfair to Lewis (and Max if he has any feelings) opening up wounds that are clearly still fresh and using them to their advantage.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven, there are no rights or wrongs here - the whole sport is corrupt through to the core due to the governing body essentially leaving things run amok - and I include the so called "innocent" party Merc in this - they have been just as bad on and off the track throughout the season too lets not forget...but then when the governing body are playing doggy roll-over and tickle my tummy moves and there are millions upon millions of dollars/pounds at stake can you actually blame ANY team or driver of pushing the rules....

I suppose I've answered my own questions haha

Disagree here tbh, Red Bull have been the aggressors and the major purveyor of sniping, bad blood, and generally dragging the standards down to the street. Mercedes have to risen and changed to the standard that Red Bull have lowered themselves too. Max's on track behaviour and Red Bulls general tactics and PR have been in the gutter since the start of the year, you're just equating Mercedes behaviour as they haven't until recently responded in kind so it's fresher in the memory.

With regards Sergio, he's good but theres a reason he's kicked around in the midfield in all previous seasons, he's also been beaten on occasion by some average drivers even though he's been in the fastest car all season on average. Le Clerc, Sainz, Russell and Ocon have been way better than him, as has Lando who is my fave driver outside the top teams.

TimmyO · December 2021

The most impactful thing Perez did this season was drive deliberately slowly for a few laps

poopot · December 2021

welshboyo said:

Each to their own, but I find the likes of Perez, Sainz battling mid-field to be better than the usual up-front dirge that we see these days.

If Perez, sainz et al were better drivers they would be battling up front with the usual “dirge”.

stickyfiddle · December 2021

poopot said:

welshboyo said:

Each to their own, but I find the likes of Perez, Sainz battling mid-field to be better than the usual up-front dirge that we see these days.

If Perez, sainz et al were better drivers they would be battling up front with the usual “dirge”.

Sainz has been consistently at the front of the midfield in a car that isn't capable of more. Perez has been consistently at the front of the midfield in the car that won the title...

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

The F1 thread

Comments

My head said brake, but my heart cried never.

My head said brake, but my heart cried never.