Tuning - A Comment on Today's That Pedal Show

Stuckfast · October 2022

breezytele said:

I’m puzzled by people who comment on YouTube videos, telling the poster to tune his guitar, not least because the videos often sound just fine as they are

Are you listening on headphones? To my ears tuning discrepancies are often a lot more obvious on speakers.

robinbowes · October 2022

Stuckfast said:

breezytele said:

I’m puzzled by people who comment on YouTube videos, telling the poster to tune his guitar, not least because the videos often sound just fine as they are

Are you listening on headphones? To my ears tuning discrepancies are often a lot more obvious on speakers.

Not everyone hears the same level of dissonance, apparently.

LastMantra · October 2022

Danny1969 said:

What would one do though, if handed a guitar at a party and asked to play something is it was out of tune and no tuner was present ?

That means the party is over and one should get ones coat.

BeardyAndy · October 2022

When I'm at home no problem, even after a restring i can usually get them in the ball park but when the drummers already started playing the intro and I remember the songs in drop D... That's when I need my tuner!

Sporky · October 2022

Danny1969 said:

What would one do though, if handed a guitar at a party and asked to play something is it was out of tune and no tuner was present ?

Easy. I just wake up. I don't go to parties, so it's clearly a dream. Usually I just make a high keening sound in the dream, which eventually comes out in real life, then Lady BMcH hits me to shut me up. It's a good system.

monquixote · October 2022

Danny1969 said:

roberty said:

Danny1969 said:

What would one do though, if handed a guitar at a party and asked to play something is it was out of tune and no tuner was present ?

There's an app for that

Lol, actually yes there is and I have 2 on my phone ... showing my age I think.

A shagged out acoustic at a party is where relative pitch shows it's value.

Often it will have really old strings or knackered intonation and won't sound in tune from a tuner or the 5th fret technique.

At that point you are into hitting the main chord shape and sweetening the intervals if you want to wring an acceptable sound out of it.

blobb · October 2022

Good bit of advice I was given when starting out: Learn to tune to a record. I still do it now, it's an ear training thing mainly, not all records are 'in tune'.

bacchanalian · October 2022

In a rig run down Jon Herington mentions that he sometimes leaves his tuner on in line.

If he can't hear exactly what is going on he wants to make sure his bends are to pitch

stratman3142 · October 2022

blobb said:

Good bit of advice I was given when starting out: Learn to tune to a record. I still do it now, it's an ear training thing mainly, not all records are 'in tune'.

That's what I did in the old days when learning songs. But now, I I tune the track to concert using Transcribe! if I need to learn it and it's not at concert pitch. So I tune the track by pitch shifting it to my guitar, which is tuned to concert using a tuner

Image: /plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/fb/1.gif

I can understand an old recording not being at concert when it was the only way to adjust the speed as well. But these days it seems inexcusable - Human by Rag N Bone Man being a case in point.

In the early days, I used to tune by ear using pitch pipes as well, but just tuned to one of them (the A) as they weren't always that accurate relative to each other. Then tuned all the strings using the A as a reference.

Handsome_Chris · October 2022

monquixote said:

I think a lot of people are missing the point.

Handsome_Chris · October 2022

Danny1969 said:

What would one do though, if handed a guitar at a party and asked to play something is it was out of tune and no tuner was present ?

Image: https://media.tenor.com/vkpdJg0NRNcAAAAC/tantrums-freaking-out.gif

PAL · October 2022

Yes you should learn to tune by ear because it helps with ear training & pitch etc . That's OK if your at home or studio and
things are quite but if you are gigging or rehearsing and it's a bit noisy a tuner is the thing to have because most people
don't want to hear you tuning up ! Also a tuner will allow you to tune up during a song if you have a tuning issue !
I

guitarjack66 · December 2022

BillDL said:

bermudianbrit said:

I am a completely blind player and therefore cannot use a tuning device without sound in any context. As such, I've really developed that auditory sense of when something is out and can retune very quickly if needed. But the fact is that if I could use a pedal, I 100% would do so. If I were playing set after set every night I would probably get an Evertune just to avoid this issue in a professional context though. Admittedly it is one of the reasons why Les Paul's aren't my favourite instruments.

This comment by @bermudianbrit about being blind has really got me thinking about how fortunate I am and also about whether there would be a market for an electronic guitar tuner that vibrates slowly if the note is flat, faster if it is sharp, and maybe pulses when it is exactly at the pitch. Anybody who has ever held a Rampant Rabbit adult "toy" will know how different the vibrations can be on its different settings and speeds. I see no reason why a tuner could not use the same technology, which is actually very primitive in practical terms.

Is nobody going to ask about this knowledge of the 'Rampant Rabbit' then?

GuyBoden · December 2022

The better your ears get, the more you realise how out of tune your guitar is at various frets. Even when the intonation is as accurate as possible, that is why the true temperament was invented. Fretless could possibly be more accurately intune, but that would depend on how good your ear was.

A true temperament guitar below, but then the keyboard is out of tune too.

roberty · December 2022

@GuyBoden I tried an earvana nut and it sounded wrong to me. Too 'in tune'. It's kind of hard to describe. It didn't sound like a guitar to me any more, although obviously it did sound like a guitar

GuyBoden · December 2022

roberty said:

@GuyBoden I tried an earvana nut and it sounded wrong to me. Too 'in tune'. It's kind of hard to describe. It didn't sound like a guitar to me any more, although obviously it did sound like a guitar

But, them types of nut will only make the open strings be true temperament tuning, the rest of the frets will be gradually out. Sort of misses the point, or is a blatant marketing gimmick.

viz · December 2022

I’ve probably said this already in other threads but the reason the guitar is difficult to tune well is because it contains two competing tuning systems. Danny eluded to this earlier.

The frets are all 12-TET. Each fret is 1.059 times closer than the preceding one, which results in the octaves being precisely “just”. Like a piano. This is at the expense of the 4ths, which are slightly too large, and fhe 5ths, which are slightly too small. In fact every interval up the frets is an approximation from its harmonic equivalent. However it means that every key sounds the same, and anyway the Western ear is used to these imperfections.

The strings, on the other hand, can be tuned to be precisely just, and this is what people do. They tune the top and bottom Es, which MUST be correct in either system, then they tune perfect 4ths upwards from the low E, and a perfect 4th downwards from the top. This is bad for two reasons: firstly the pitch of the open strings doesn’t match their fretted equivalents, and secondly, those perfect 4ths, all being smaller than their 12-TET equivalents, stack up. Consequently the gap where they meet, between the G and the B string, is much larger than a major 3rd should be, affecting almost every chord up the neck.

The best way to get your guitar as well in tune as possible, over all the keys, without a digital tuner, is to make it behave like a piano. Tune the open strings so that they match their fretted equivalents.

You can do this by starting from the top E, going down to the B, fretting the 5th fret, and making it match the open B. Then repeat down the strings (of course it’s the 4th fret on the G string to tune to the B ). However this introduces the risk that any imperfections mount up as you go.

The better way is to tune the G correctly, then tune every other string to that G, by fretting:

3rd fret on the top E
8th fret on the B
Open G
5th fret on the D
10th fret on the A
Bottom E matches top E

Compare each sound to the open G string as you go. OK, the resonance between consecutive open strings will exhibit some slow beats (2-4 per second), but your guitar is now as much in tune as a piano is.

stickyfiddle · December 2022

Wis for @viz ;

If tuning by ear I usually do a variation using the A string as the base but it’s essentially the same process. 5/7 harmonics for the two Es, D and B (5th fret) and 12th A harmonic for the G at the 2nd fret.

viz · December 2022

^ The only thing I’d mention is that the 5/7 harmonics method forces the open string intervals to be Just, and the discrepancy between strings and frets stacks up, so it can still result in a problem at the G-B interval. For example, when you’ve done the harmonics method, try playing 3rd fret on the low E against the open G and listen for the beats. You should get around 7 per second, which is not a disaster but it can be irritating.

Give this a try - avoid the harmonics and tune from the G string, using fretted notes only. Lemme know what you think.

stickyfiddle · December 2022

Will do. I'm aware of the potential errors due to harmonics but figure this method works nicely for the main "guitar keys" and usually if I'm playing in other keys I'm using a tuner anyway.

To be honest these days I mostly tune by ear when I'm using open tunings, where it doesn't apply anyway!

tone1 · December 2022

I can’t tune by ear….but when I tune to standard 440 my ear just doesn’t like it much…if I tune a few cents sharper it’s much more pleasing?

prowla · December 2022

So, do you get the audience to all shut up so you can hear to tune your instrument?

I can tune by ear, but a using a tuner makes it a heck of a lot easier.

Similarly, I can walk to the supermarket, but having a car makes it a heck of a lot easier to bring the shopping home.

digitalkettle · December 2022

viz said:

...
The better way is to tune the G correctly, then tune every other string to that G, by fretting:

3rd fret on the top E
8th fret on the B
Open G
5th fret on the D
10th fret on the A
Bottom E matches top E

Compare each sound to the open G string as you go. OK, the resonance between consecutive open strings will exhibit some slow beats (2-4 per second), but your guitar is now as much in tune as a piano is.

I've been doing something similar for years...I think I read an article by luthier Kevin Ryan:

get the D in tune
G: D string 12th harmonic to G string 7th fret
B: D string 12th harmonic to B string 3rd fret
E: G string 12th harmonic to E string 3rd fret
A: A string 12th harmonic to G string 2nd fret
E: E string 12th harmonic to D string 2nd fret

Has the advantage of letting the harmonics ring for easier comparison with fretted notes. Quickly becomes second nature and is reinforced by testing octaves and fifths in a handful of places.

digitalkettle · December 2022

prowla said:

So, do you get the audience to all shut up so you can hear to tune your instrument?

At a gig, I invoke the 'close enough for rock and roll' clause

darthed1981 · December 2022

This is all very advanced stuff, especially the gatekeeping.

I personally agree the things I can do are ESSENTIAL, unlike the things I can't do which are POINTLESS, and anyone who disagrees can fuck themselves with a rusty balloon whisk.

Doesn't anyone else just play a G chord go "ooof, that sounds shit" and then tune their guitar?

BillDL · December 2022

Yes, but I'm only saying that because I don't fancy the alternative with the whisk

flying_pie · December 2022

stratman3142 said:

blobb said:

Good bit of advice I was given when starting out: Learn to tune to a record. I still do it now, it's an ear training thing mainly, not all records are 'in tune'.

I can understand an old recording not being at concert when it was the only way to adjust the speed as well. But these days it seems inexcusable - Human by Rag N Bone Man being a case in point.

These days some records aren't at concert pitch, but that's down to the producer deciding it works better at a slightly different tempo than recorded and tweaking the playback speed.

viz · December 2022

flying_pie said:

stratman3142 said:

blobb said:

Good bit of advice I was given when starting out: Learn to tune to a record. I still do it now, it's an ear training thing mainly, not all records are 'in tune'.

I can understand an old recording not being at concert when it was the only way to adjust the speed as well. But these days it seems inexcusable - Human by Rag N Bone Man being a case in point.

These days some records aren't at concert pitch, but that's down to the producer deciding it works better at a slightly different tempo than recorded and tweaking the playback speed.

That’s inexcusable in my view - pitch and tempo are the artist’s choice! - but anyway nowadays surely they can alter the tempo without changing the pitch?

darthed1981 · December 2022

viz said:

flying_pie said:

stratman3142 said:

blobb said:

Good bit of advice I was given when starting out: Learn to tune to a record. I still do it now, it's an ear training thing mainly, not all records are 'in tune'.

I can understand an old recording not being at concert when it was the only way to adjust the speed as well. But these days it seems inexcusable - Human by Rag N Bone Man being a case in point.

These days some records aren't at concert pitch, but that's down to the producer deciding it works better at a slightly different tempo than recorded and tweaking the playback speed.

That’s inexcusable in my view - pitch and tempo are the artist’s choice! - but anyway nowadays surely they can alter the tempo without changing the pitch?

I would assume Rag N Bone man had final say over his own mix - lets not make silly assumptions here.

viz · December 2022

darthed1981 said:

viz said:

flying_pie said:

stratman3142 said:

blobb said:

Good bit of advice I was given when starting out: Learn to tune to a record. I still do it now, it's an ear training thing mainly, not all records are 'in tune'.

I can understand an old recording not being at concert when it was the only way to adjust the speed as well. But these days it seems inexcusable - Human by Rag N Bone Man being a case in point.

These days some records aren't at concert pitch, but that's down to the producer deciding it works better at a slightly different tempo than recorded and tweaking the playback speed.

That’s inexcusable in my view - pitch and tempo are the artist’s choice! - but anyway nowadays surely they can alter the tempo without changing the pitch?

I would assume Rag N Bone man had final say over his own mix - lets not make silly assumptions here.

Ok thanks!!

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Tuning - A Comment on Today's That Pedal Show

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