Tuning - A Comment on Today's That Pedal Show

BillDL · October 2022

It seems odd to me that I tune to a digital tuner and then (on most of my guitars) I immediately drop or raise the pitch of a couple of strings the tiniest bit by playing various chords and intervals and listening for unwanted dissonance. I rarely like the sound of most of my guitars when tuned to bang on pitch with an electronic tuner and left like that. Every guitar has its idiosyncrasies and every player frets notes and chords with varying degrees of pressure with the different fingers.

merlin · October 2022

Tuning is a Bourgoise concept.

Keefy · October 2022

Blueingreen said:

You have to get some perspective. I started playing in bands before electronic tuners were widely available. You tuned by ear because there was no alternative. Result - most guitar bands were out of tune a lot of the time, especially if playing loud music. A few loud songs can quickly degrade your ability to hear tuning accurately. Your tuning might be good when you started but a few songs in it might be a different story.

I remember the first time I heard a band using electronic tuners - Joe Jackson's band as it happens - I could tell straight away there was a precision in the tuning that wasn't normal for guitar bands. And that's not because I have golden ears or anything (I wish) - just about anybody who'd played guitar in a band at that time would have noticed the same thing.

Name bands used to be out of tune a lot of the time. Just to take one example it's well know that when the Stones were putting together Get Your Ya Ya's Out a lot of tuning issues needed to be fixed. Are we really saying Keef and Mick Taylor shouldn't be playing guitar?

There's a famous interview with Ray Crawford, the guy who played the famous guitar solo on Tom Waits's Blue Valentine, who played jazz sax and guitar at the highest level and was a friend of Wes Montgomery and Charlie Parker, where he discusses tuning accuracy pre electronic tuners:

"I played out of tune, all of the time.......Django ...played out of tune...Charlie Christian played out of tune".

He partly blames vintage guitars and tuning pegs and old strings. But his main point is "You've got to accept the fact that modern day electronics are so exact and so precise that you can't help but see the deficiencies in things the way they were."

Electronic tuners have raised the bar for tuning accuracy in guitar bands to a level only a small minority of players could match by ear. Personally I don't believe you have to be in that minority to be a good creative musician, nor do I believe that being in that minority means you necessarily will be a good creative musician.

The Rolling Stones at Hyde Park is so out-of-tune it's unlistenable. I'm sure all the Stones could tune their instruments, it's just there was no way for them to do this effectively in the live environment.

Sporky · October 2022

BillDL said:

It seems odd to me that I tune to a digital tuner and then (on most of my guitars) I immediately drop or raise the pitch of a couple of strings the tiniest bit by playing various chords and intervals and listening for unwanted dissonance.

Isn't that what the Buzz Feiten system (and possibly the Earvana nut) emulates?

I think the whole thing is a false dilemma. There is huge merit in being able to tune by ear - I'd suggest it's darned near an essential skill - but a tuner pedal is absolutely essential if you're gigging or recording.

Danny1969 · October 2022

When I started out we had no tuners, we either used the pianos at school or tuned to what we thought was right. The schools synth was analog and had a tuning knob so could be tuned to the guitars.

You have to have a tuner because you need to know you are in tune without making a noise. But you also need to know the guitar needs to be "in tune" with it's self and just tuning open strings to a tuner won't achieve that. You sweeten the tuning depending on where you are going to be playing, sometimes you want a slightly flat B string to get a nice maj 3rd. Sometimes you want the bottom E flat at rest because it will go sharp when hit aggressively.

RocknRollDave · October 2022

https://youtu.be/W7NOoNyqirc

Crazed_Fandango · October 2022

stickyfiddle said:

To those saying it's unimportant, is it that you can't be bothered, or can't hear when a guitar is in or out of tune, or something else? (genuine question)

@stickyfiddle ;;
I've never learned, as I've owned a tuner at the same time as I had my 1st guitar.
"Can't be bothered", I know I haven't bothered to a great extent, but I'm self-taught, so I only learned things at my own speed and when I needed to. I can hear when something is off, but to the degree that non-guitarist/musician would.

I see people playing guitar, they strum a chord, then grab one of the tuners and tweak it a bit then carry on playing; this I cannot do. I would have to stop and check each string against the next to find out which one(s) were out of tune.

Of course, for my early years, I only owned guitars with floating bridges, so a tuner was essential for me to ensure I was tuned to the correct pitch, rather than in (roughly) tune with itself.

bermudianbrit · October 2022

Hi @BillDL thanks for the comment. The Roadie 3 tuner does this to an extent, in that it will take care of the tuning process. But it does not connect to the guitar directly, and (from experience) if trying to tune in a space with a lot of other sound vibrations, it works less well than desired because of this.
A vibrating tuner that connected to the guitar would be quite a useful bit of kit if it were reliable.

RocknRollDave · October 2022

Keefy said:

Blueingreen said:

You have to get some perspective. I started playing in bands before electronic tuners were widely available. You tuned by ear because there was no alternative. Result - most guitar bands were out of tune a lot of the time, especially if playing loud music. A few loud songs can quickly degrade your ability to hear tuning accurately. Your tuning might be good when you started but a few songs in it might be a different story.

I remember the first time I heard a band using electronic tuners - Joe Jackson's band as it happens - I could tell straight away there was a precision in the tuning that wasn't normal for guitar bands. And that's not because I have golden ears or anything (I wish) - just about anybody who'd played guitar in a band at that time would have noticed the same thing.

Name bands used to be out of tune a lot of the time. Just to take one example it's well know that when the Stones were putting together Get Your Ya Ya's Out a lot of tuning issues needed to be fixed. Are we really saying Keef and Mick Taylor shouldn't be playing guitar?

There's a famous interview with Ray Crawford, the guy who played the famous guitar solo on Tom Waits's Blue Valentine, who played jazz sax and guitar at the highest level and was a friend of Wes Montgomery and Charlie Parker, where he discusses tuning accuracy pre electronic tuners:

"I played out of tune, all of the time.......Django ...played out of tune...Charlie Christian played out of tune".

He partly blames vintage guitars and tuning pegs and old strings. But his main point is "You've got to accept the fact that modern day electronics are so exact and so precise that you can't help but see the deficiencies in things the way they were."

Electronic tuners have raised the bar for tuning accuracy in guitar bands to a level only a small minority of players could match by ear. Personally I don't believe you have to be in that minority to be a good creative musician, nor do I believe that being in that minority means you necessarily will be a good creative musician.

The Rolling Stones at Hyde Park is so out-of-tune it's unlistenable. I'm sure all the Stones could tune their instruments, it's just there was no way for them to do this effectively in the live environment.

That’s down to poor technique eg poor intonation when bending, lack of decent finger vibrato so notes sound ‘wrong’ when they’re just lifeless etc

Stuckfast · October 2022

I've nothing against digital tuners, but I have often seen performers who don't seem aware that their instrument is still noticeably out of tune even though they've made all the little green LEDs light up. I think it's vital to check by ear even if you do use a tuner.

monquixote · October 2022

BillDL said:

It seems odd to me that I tune to a digital tuner and then (on most of my guitars) I immediately drop or raise the pitch of a couple of strings the tiniest bit by playing various chords and intervals and listening for unwanted dissonance. I rarely like the sound of most of my guitars when tuned to bang on pitch with an electronic tuner and left like that. Every guitar has its idiosyncrasies and every player frets notes and chords with varying degrees of pressure with the different fingers.

This just highlights that tuning is always a bit of a compromise.

The great example is unchained by Van Halen which has to have one of the strings sweetened or it sounds really wrong.

Danny1969 · October 2022

monquixote said:

BillDL said:

It seems odd to me that I tune to a digital tuner and then (on most of my guitars) I immediately drop or raise the pitch of a couple of strings the tiniest bit by playing various chords and intervals and listening for unwanted dissonance. I rarely like the sound of most of my guitars when tuned to bang on pitch with an electronic tuner and left like that. Every guitar has its idiosyncrasies and every player frets notes and chords with varying degrees of pressure with the different fingers.

This just highlights that tuning is always a bit of a compromise.

The great example is unchained by Van Halen which has to have one of the strings sweetened or it sounds really wrong.

That and Dance the night away, Running with the Devil, Panama.
He was the master of distorted chords with great major thirds that didn't sound all dissonant against the root and 5th.

Basically though even a tuned piano isn't in tune. You could tune a piano so it was in perfect tune in one key but it would sound terrible in any other key. The only instruments that are in tune are fretless ones where the player can keep to "Just" pitches by moving their fingers . Any fretted or keyed instrument uses equal temperament which is a little off but sounds reasonably ok in any key.

In the studio we tuned the guitar to the main shape that was being used in the song. The open strings were just a starting point then the strings were sweetened in fretted position they were being held in. Sometimes splitting the recording of the guitar into different sections so the tuning could be resweetened to the different parts.

One thing you don't hear much these days is the slight chorus effect you get when the band are in close to being in but ever so slightly out. It's one of the things that give more width to the sound I think. Nowadays everything is tuned to perfect

sev112 · October 2022

What about a guitar that tunes itself automatically - that must be a great idea

Handsome_Chris · October 2022

sev112 said:

What about a guitar that tunes itself automatically - that must be a great idea

If one were to buy a guitar that tunes automatically, then one should not buy guitars.

Rocker · October 2022

If it is not important for your guitar/bass to be in tune, why then are tuning machines fitted on those instruments?

In in my experience fitting an Earvana nut (available from Feline Guitars and others) helps a guitar to play more in tune than using a standard nut. It took me a few days to get used to the guitar sound after fitting the Earvana nut, my ear needed tuning!

Not all guitars need an Earvana nut, my CS Strat plays perfectly in tune with the standard nut.

Note: plays in tune. The open strings need to be tuned properly and the intonation set accurately before everything else falls into place.

BillDL · October 2022

Sporky said:

Isn't that what the Buzz Feiten system (and possibly the Earvana nut) emulates?

I've heard of the Buzz Feiten system but never looked it up. I just assumed it was the technology used by Scholl in some fancy expensive insoles with vibrating magnets to help with bunions and cure liver complaints. As for Earvana, I prefer the Weird Al Jankovic version of their song.

robinbowes · October 2022

Buzz Feiten - to intuneity, and beyond!

roberty · October 2022

BillDL said:

It seems odd to me that I tune to a digital tuner and then (on most of my guitars) I immediately drop or raise the pitch of a couple of strings the tiniest bit by playing various chords and intervals and listening for unwanted dissonance. I rarely like the sound of most of my guitars when tuned to bang on pitch with an electronic tuner and left like that. Every guitar has its idiosyncrasies and every player frets notes and chords with varying degrees of pressure with the different fingers.

Yeh I always check and adjust by ear after tuning with a tuner if I can (ie not at gigs)

roberty · October 2022

Rocker said:

If it is not important for your guitar/bass to be in tune, why then are tuning machines fitted on those instruments?

In in my experience fitting an Earvana nut (available from Feline Guitars and others) helps a guitar to play more in tune than using a standard nut. It took me a few days to get used to the guitar sound after fitting the Earvana nut, my ear needed tuning!

Not all guitars need an Earvana nut, my CS Strat plays perfectly in tune with the standard nut.

Note: plays in tune. The open strings need to be tuned properly and the intonation set accurately before everything else falls into place.

I tried one and didn't like it. The guitar was more in tune, and I checked this on every fret with a tuner, but something felt off. Maybe I'm used to the sound of an uncompensated guitar, or maybe I instinctively compensate with my hands. Either way I've never had a problem with the way guitars sound, and it sounded odd to me, so off it came

tone1 · October 2022

sev112 said:

What about a guitar that tunes itself automatically - that must be a great idea

I think that’s been known to be punishable with a permaban in most cases….

Rocker · October 2022

That is a pity @Roberty as an Earvana nut, when your ear gets used to the changes it brings, makes your guitar sound better, fits in better with a singer and a bass.

You ought to consider refitting it and give it a longer trial period.

roberty · October 2022

@Rocker I left the earvana nut in the case pocket and it's cut to the right size so it would be easy enough to try again. Maybe next string change. It was just very odd. I had to consciously change the way I play

carlos · October 2022

I love when I'm playing with other people and I know I'm in tune because the machine said so, while the "don't worry, I'm tuning by ear" bloke takes 5 minutes to do it, and then is so out of it, he might as well be in A=18313

monquixote · October 2022

I think a lot of people are missing the point.

You should usually tune with a pedal, but you should also be able to tune without one.

robinbowes · October 2022

monquixote said:

I think a lot of people are missing the point.

You should usually tune with a pedal, but you should also be able to tune without one.

What? People on an internet forum MISSING THE POINT? No way!!

Crazed_Fandango · October 2022

The only point was that I've never learned as I've never had the need.

breezytele · October 2022

I’m puzzled by people who comment on YouTube videos, telling the poster to tune his guitar, not least because the videos often sound just fine as they are

Danny1969 · October 2022

What would one do though, if handed a guitar at a party and asked to play something is it was out of tune and no tuner was present ?

roberty · October 2022

Danny1969 said:

What would one do though, if handed a guitar at a party and asked to play something is it was out of tune and no tuner was present ?

There's an app for that

Danny1969 · October 2022

roberty said:

Danny1969 said:

What would one do though, if handed a guitar at a party and asked to play something is it was out of tune and no tuner was present ?

There's an app for that

Lol, actually yes there is and I have 2 on my phone ... showing my age I think.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Tuning - A Comment on Today's That Pedal Show

Comments