Tuning - A Comment on Today's That Pedal Show

Crazed_Fandango · October 2022

I'm a regular viewer and hold their knowledge in high regard, but something Mick said today really got my attention and was a wake up call....

The question was: what is the most important pedal on the board. PRS said that the tuner was, but Mick said if you can't tune the guitar you shouldn't be playing it.

Holding my hands up here...I cannot without a tuner, as I've always used a tuner so never learned to.

How many others are in the same situation or do you feel it's a necessary skill, given that tuners are so readily available?

Thoughts, comments, brickbats.....

monquixote · October 2022

You need a tuner to get to concert, but you should absolutely learn to tune.

A good ear for relative pitch is essential to being a good musician.

How else will you bend accurately or play slide etc.

Neilybob · October 2022

Totally agree with @monquixote ;

I can't tune by ear but I know how to bend to the right pitch.

I'm also an avid follower of TPS and respect there opinions and views with high regards. Can highly recommend seeing them live.

EricTheWeary · October 2022

I can tune a guitar to itself easy enough and I’ll be in the ballpark but I wouldn’t guarantee it’s spot on A440.
But Mick is still wrong (for a gigging board anyway), no one wants to listen to you tuning up. Let alone if you needed to retune mid song and were trying to do it by ear. Headstock tuners get knocked off, aren't reliable when other things are making loud noises and don't mute your output.

darius · October 2022

Harsh but fair I reckon.

It’s lesson 1 really. Its also not hard.
Tuner pedals are great for silent visual tuning but you’ve got to train your ears before relying on a box.

I suppose you’ll be telling me next that you can’t read a map and you’ve always just followed the satnav.

RocknRollDave · October 2022

I agree that learning to recognise pitch and, from there, to be able to tune a guitar either to itself or to a note (in my day it was pitch pipes - remember them?!) are essential skills a wannabe guitarist should learn at the first opportunity, but every gigging guitarist should have a tuner onstage with the facility to mute whilst tuning.

RocknRollDave · October 2022

RocknRollDave said:

I agree that learning to recognise pitch and, from there, to be able to tune a guitar either to itself or to a note (in my day it was pitch pipes - remember them?!) are essential skills a wannabe guitarist should learn at the first opportunity, but every gigging guitarist should have a tuner onstage with the facility to mute whilst tuning.

OR to use Telecasters exclusively, and hence never need to retune ever again.

JCA2550 · October 2022

For those of us who started out on an acoustic guitar back in the Dark Ages learning to tune using pitch pipes ( yuck) and a tuning fork (A 440) was both basic stuff and essential. You might not have perfect pitch, but developing relative pitch and being able tune any instrument to itself should be compulsory in my opinion. That said, try tuning by ear in a loud venue or rehearsal room without an electronic tuner while muted, it can't be done.

stickyfiddle · October 2022

I'm with @monquixote and @RocknRollDave - you're not a musician if you can't hear pitches properly and the first step to that is tuning by ear. It's essential (sorry to anyone to whom that applies!)

Equally when gigging you should have a pedal tuner that mutes your signal. Nobody needs to hear you tuning. With a Polytune I can check tuning silently in the space of a single bar mid-song if I need to.

RocknRollDave · October 2022

stickyfiddle said:

I'm with @monquixote and @RocknRollDave - you're not a musician if you can't hear pitches properly and the first step to that is tuning by ear. It's essential (sorry to anyone to whom that applies!)

Equally when gigging you should have a pedal tuner that mutes your signal. Nobody needs to hear you tuning. With a Polytune I can check tuning silently in the space of a single bar mid-song if I need to.

I recently upgraded to a Polytune from a Boss, because even that extra time it takes to pluck individual strings to check tuning is too long for a dancefloor at a wedding to be stood there waiting for the next song. It can be the difference between maintaining the atmosphere of the night and clearing a dancefloor.

stickyfiddle · October 2022

^^ exactly. I mostly got my first PT because I wanted something really small but I wouldn't use anything else now.

slacker · October 2022

I plan where and how to tune. For bass and acoustic I'll use a headstock tuner and tune once. For electric I'll pick inbeteeen songs where there's talking or where I don't play. I've got a boss and a polytune mini.

roberty · October 2022

If you can hear which of your strings are sharp or flat while you're playing you can compensate for it until you get a chance to tune, so you should really develop your ear in this way. Absolutely no way you should gig without a stage tuner though

euan · October 2022

Gate keeping nonsense. Imagine that PRS being less of a snob than a YouTuber

TheBigDipper · October 2022

JCA2550 said:

For those of us who started out on an acoustic guitar back in the Dark Ages learning to tune using pitch pipes ( yuck) and a tuning fork (A 440) was both basic stuff and essential. You might not have perfect pitch, but developing relative pitch and being able tune any instrument to itself should be compulsory in my opinion. That said, try tuning by ear in a loud venue or rehearsal room without an electronic tuner while muted, it can't be done.

All of this. I can tune a guitar using a tuning fork, using pitch pipes or to the nearest piano. I can hear when my guitar is out of tune (or my band mates are). It is a primary skill for any player. Learning how to tune the instrument without a tuner - either to itself (if you're playing solo) or to the piano you're playing with (which may be tuned to itself but no longer at concert pitch) is a skill. Something, somewhere, must be the reference point for everyone.

But... tuning up in a noisy performance room at volume is not easy. The human ear will tune up too sharp under those circumstances and it's far simpler to use an electronic tuner to mute your signal and quickly get it right so you can give your best to the next piece or song. For an audience, hearing musicians tune up is boring. The important thing is to make sure everyone in the band agrees that A=440 or whatever, and all the tuners are set so it is! :-)

Crazed_Fandango · October 2022

Excellent. Now I can sell off my guitars to fund a set of golf clubs.

DefaultM · October 2022

Sounds like something a smug kid who thinks he's better than he is would say.

If you're gonna stand there on stage tuning out loud are the audience gonna think "wow this guy doesn't need a tuner pedal that's impressive"? Not likely. They'd be wondering why they were hearing it.

Lestratcaster · October 2022

If you're playing live then a tuner that mutes is a must If you're playing with another guitarist and you both tune by ear then your idea of when a low e is in tune might be different so you'll be both out with another.

joeyowen · October 2022

Meh, who is anyone to say if anyone else should/shouldn't be playing guitar?

JohnCordy · October 2022

It's a comment that makes almost no sense

tone1 · October 2022

Yep…. I could tune for Jazz without a tuner

spev11 · October 2022

Crazed_Fandango said:

I'm a regular viewer and hold their knowledge in high regard, but something Mick said today really got my attention and was a wake up call....

The question was: what is the most important pedal on the board. PRS said that the tuner was, but Mick said if you can't tune the guitar you shouldn't be playing it.

Holding my hands up here...I cannot without a tuner, as I've always used a tuner so never learned to.

How many others are in the same situation or do you feel it's a necessary skill, given that tuners are so readily available?

Thoughts, comments, brickbats.....

Then Mick is either poking to get comments or being rather elitist. Who's to say (as someone else said) who should and shouldnt play a guitar? I've taken it up later in life (i'm 52 and started seriously 2 years ago having dabbled badly on and off for years) and suffer with tinitus so from one hour to the next have variable hearing response. This often makes pitch differences difficult to recognise and I still struggle to tune by ear ( im attempting Justin's ear training and struggling quite badly). According to Mick (and few on here) I should just give up and never be able to call myself a musician ( I wouldnt at the moment but thats my call and no one elses).
It's this kind of elitist attitude that puts people off, its a useful skill but nobody should deem it a gate that if you cant open then you ain't coming in the club.

Handsome_Chris · October 2022

I'm goosed then. I've always used a tuner to tune to the correct pitch.

Are the band supposed to tune by ear before they get on stage?

joeyowen · October 2022

I think it is just part of being in the spotlight. Mick has probably said a million things I agree with, and I'm almost sure it was meant in jest, and he doesn't actually mean it, it was more of a "learn to tune your guitar" dig.

We are all just quick at picking up on things sometimes. He's a genuinely likable dude. But I still stand by what I said, it isn't up to anyone what you do. If you play guitar and enjoy it, awesome

stickyfiddle · October 2022

To those saying it's unimportant, is it that you can't be bothered, or can't hear when a guitar is in or out of tune, or something else? (genuine question)

I don't think anyone here is saying you should be tuning by ear on stage - frankly that's amateurish and also not accurate enough at volume. But the ability to tell when notes are the same and where they're not is really hugely important. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever play a guitar and can't enjoy the whole thing if you can't because that would be absurd. But I'd also say that I'd have a hard time playing in a band with anyone who couldn't hear when something isn't right.

I will add though that while PRS can be a little hard work he's dead right on "hand tone" and how different people can sound so different through different rigs.

S56035 · October 2022

I have limited time to play guitar. A tuner keeps that time a maximum rather than faffing around.

bermudianbrit · October 2022

I am a completely blind player and therefore cannot use a tuning device without sound in any context. As such, I've really developed that auditory sense of when something is out and can retune very quickly if needed. But the fact is that if I could use a pedal, I 100% would do so. If I were playing set after set every night I would probably get an Evertune just to avoid this issue in a professional context though. Admittedly it is one of the reasons why Les Paul's aren't my favourite instruments.

Handsome_Chris · October 2022

JohnCordy said:

It's a comment that makes almost no sense

@JohnCordy , is that why there is no statement to back it up? It reminds me of this hilarity:

Note: before anyone chooses to get offended, I am not trying to hint at anyone performing any misdeeds.

JohnCordy · October 2022

@Handsome_Chris this is absolutely the last thing we wanted to happen

BillDL · October 2022

bermudianbrit said:

I am a completely blind player and therefore cannot use a tuning device without sound in any context. As such, I've really developed that auditory sense of when something is out and can retune very quickly if needed. But the fact is that if I could use a pedal, I 100% would do so. If I were playing set after set every night I would probably get an Evertune just to avoid this issue in a professional context though. Admittedly it is one of the reasons why Les Paul's aren't my favourite instruments.

This comment by @bermudianbrit about being blind has really got me thinking about how fortunate I am and also about whether there would be a market for an electronic guitar tuner that vibrates slowly if the note is flat, faster if it is sharp, and maybe pulses when it is exactly at the pitch. Anybody who has ever held a Rampant Rabbit adult "toy" will know how different the vibrations can be on its different settings and speeds. I see no reason why a tuner could not use the same technology, which is actually very primitive in practical terms.

Blueingreen · October 2022

You have to get some perspective. I started playing in bands before electronic tuners were widely available. You tuned by ear because there was no alternative. Result - most guitar bands were out of tune a lot of the time, especially if playing loud music. A few loud songs can quickly degrade your ability to hear tuning accurately. Your tuning might be good when you started but a few songs in it might be a different story.

I remember the first time I heard a band using electronic tuners - Joe Jackson's band as it happens - I could tell straight away there was a precision in the tuning that wasn't normal for guitar bands. And that's not because I have golden ears or anything (I wish) - just about anybody who'd played guitar in a band at that time would have noticed the same thing.

Name bands used to be out of tune a lot of the time. Just to take one example it's well know that when the Stones were putting together Get Your Ya Ya's Out a lot of tuning issues needed to be fixed. Are we really saying Keef and Mick Taylor shouldn't be playing guitar?

There's a famous interview with Ray Crawford, the guy who played the famous guitar solo on Tom Waits's Blue Valentine, who played jazz sax and guitar at the highest level and was a friend of Wes Montgomery and Charlie Parker, where he discusses tuning accuracy pre electronic tuners:

"I played out of tune, all of the time.......Django ...played out of tune...Charlie Christian played out of tune".

He partly blames vintage guitars and tuning pegs and old strings. But his main point is "You've got to accept the fact that modern day electronics are so exact and so precise that you can't help but see the deficiencies in things the way they were."

Electronic tuners have raised the bar for tuning accuracy in guitar bands to a level only a small minority of players could match by ear. Personally I don't believe you have to be in that minority to be a good creative musician, nor do I believe that being in that minority means you necessarily will be a good creative musician.

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Tuning - A Comment on Today's That Pedal Show

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