I've been trying to learn some fast picking very methodically...here's how it's going

allen · October 2022

I recently posted some theories about learning to play slowly vs fast and so I'm now experimenting with my own playing development. I thought there might be some interest in a real life example of practicing progress.

Bear in mind that I have never really systematically learned something this way and never play fast picked runs.

Anyway, it's the fast run up in the Gary Moore/Thin Lizzy 'Out in the Fields' solo. 16th notes at 170-odd bpm on the record so it's incredibly fast (to me) and I think probably ultimately out of reach.

A very kind forumite here gave me some tab.

I've been keeping a log of progress so perhaps it's easiest to just copy/paste my log here.

The process is just sitting at my desk and turning the metronome on and plodding away at it carefully. I'm generally attempting to play it 3 times in a row with no mistakes before progressing to the next bpm. I realise that there may be some debate on the number of times with no mistakes. At lower bpms I was getting to about 7 or 8 times with no mistakes, but at higher bpms it has got a lot harder to be consistent.

25 Sep	30 mins	did 54bpm
25 Sep	60 mins	moved up to 60bpm
25 Sep	30 mins	66bpm	did it immediately
25 Sep	20 mins	72bpm	fell apart at 73bpm, went back to 66bpm and couldn't do it. pick up at 66 tomorrow.
26 Sep	spent about 30 minutes	66bpm	could only just do 66bpm. fell apart and had to go back to build up
27 Sep	an hour	69bpm	could just do 69bpm. only just though. not reliable.
28 Sep	20 minutes	62bpm	went back to 62bpm and could only just muddle through, unreliably.
28 Sep	30 minuts	84bpm	did a video, went through 76bpm and then up to 84bpm. can do it, but not very clean and not at all reliable
1 Oct	30 minutes	88bpm	spent a lot of time at 70odd. then did it twice through at 88bpm, but tiny bit messy.
3 Oct	40. minutes	72bpm	got stuck on last bit. picking couldn't stay alternating. not sure what the problem is.
3 Oct	30 minutes	88bpm	managed it cleanly at 88, but only a couple of times. tried it at 96bpm - no chance. tried at 92bpm and got close.
4 Oct	20 minutes	92bpm	managed it once or twice at 92bpm. tried 96bpm, but there is a fault in my picking on the first 2 bars that stops it.

I also had to video my picking and watch it back to spot an error in my picking.

Conclusions so far:
- It's relatively easy to keep pounding away at it. There is some feeling of frustration, but in general you feel like you are working through a process which you can calmly trust.
- It takes a LOT of time
- At about 90-odd bpm it sounds like I'm actually playing some music so it has got a bit more satisfying
- I have made the same few mistakes on the 2nd 2 bars many times over every time the speed goes up and it takes a while to resolve. It's not a mistake of technique, I just can't do it.
- I have now identified an error in my picking on the first 2 bars that I didn't know about when going slower. So I have to go back and get rid of that now.

JMS96 · October 2022

I read that previous thread with some interest. I went through a similar process playing piano when I was younger. I was practicing 2-3 hours a day and half of that was finger exercises. My response to some of the comments in that thread is that, if you’ve got the technique (the agility and strength in the fingers), you don’t need to start slow - you just need to learn the part. But if you’re starting from not having the technique, your way (starting slow and speeding up) is the only way to build this up with precision.

I can see that it would be slow, and I think by focussing just on one part it could also be painful and boring. Personally I would do what you’re doing but with a selection of different parts, increasing in difficulty and mix it up with exercises for right and left hands.

relic245 · October 2022

This is a really interesting topic. I've been trying to pick faster too.

I've been playing many years but compared to a lot of people my technique is sloppy.

I've tried the 'build up the tempo' approach many times when working with scales.

My current approach seems to be working better. I just started to play fast, very fast.

At first it sounded awful and I missed so many notes. But now it's getting better. I can't do it every time but there are times when I'm playing way way faster than I ever did before and are hitting all the notes cleanly and sounding good.

My conclusion is that practicing things slowly and methodically is a really good idea. It builds strength, accuracy, fine motor control, stamina etc and needs to be done.

I think playing fast is a different skill and there is not necessarily a bridge from one to the other. I've noticed that when playing fast my hand position is subtly different, I hold the pick a little different. I would never have figured those out by building up speed.

Anyway - keep us posted how you get on. I'm not suggesting that my way will work for others but seems to be working for me at the moment.

Lewy · October 2022

relic245 said:

I think playing fast is a different skill and there is not necessarily a bridge from one to the other. I've noticed that when playing fast my hand position is subtly different, I hold the pick a little different. I would never have figured those out by building up speed.

Not only that but it's a different mental process too. Above a certain tempo you have to think more about "spasming" out clusters of notes rather than initiating individual notes because you just can't think that fast. I'm not convinced that anybody really builds high speed slowly in gradual increments. I think what happens is that they start slow - and learning the passage slowly so you really internalise it is very important - then they start adding tempo gradually, and then at some point they make the switch (often unknowingly) to the kind of "fast mode" you're describing. But once they'd learned the passage they could have gone straight there and started working from that break point and saved a tonne of time. I suspect even some of the great players who swear by gradual build up actually just didn't know this had happened along their journey.

hollywoodrox · October 2022

Speed bursts is the answer

Look up speed bursts + Ben Higgins , Tom Hess , howtopracticeguitar

Now Tom Hess is an odd character and Mike Phillipov of how to practice guitar is one of his disciples but he has some very good advice on this subject which tallies with what other recognised educators preach . Ben Higgins is great

allen · October 2022

Thanks guys. Really appreciate the supportive words.

I'm totally with you on the 'bursts' and that playing fast is different.

That's what I'm testing out. At the moment I'm trying to play something really slowly and methodically to see how long it takes and what it feels like. I'm going to try another piece to try the 'burst' method.

Any suggestions for a few bars of 16th notes? Preferably something famous.

I've just spent 30 minutes sorting out my alternate picking in the first 2 bars (sorted). I needed to move strings with economy picking rather than alternate in that section a couple of times.

Just done it once, with some sloppiness, but all the notes there, at 100bpm. Yay me!

allen · October 2022

Quick update:

Have been a bit busy so not quite as much practicing.

I can play it fairly reliably at 96bpm now.

Had a bit of a dabble this morning seeing how far I can push it. 100bpm, not too bad.

112bpm, I can kind of doing it messily, but it seems like it's a completely different challenge at that speed.

roberty · October 2022

Great stuff @allen - it's just one of those things isn't it, no way around it, but like you say you can calmly trust the process

I did do this sort of drilling for a while ages ago, but later on discovered that my technique wasn't quite right. It wasn't awful but it did need to change in order for me to improve.

This video helped me a lot around that time, it brings it right back to basics, even if you're an advanced player I think it's worth a recap:

The song that really made me fix my right hand was Bark at the Moon by Ozzy Osbourne

You can feel free to tell me to mind my own business :-) these comments aren't aimed at you specifically, more for the benefit of anyone reading, because that was my experience

I might get back into daily drills as well, you've inspired me

Vibetronic · October 2022

Looks like you’re making some good progress, well done!! I’ve started to break down my picking completely and go from scratch. It’s absolutely painstaking and very painful, with a complete readjustment of my right hand which I haven’t done in over 30 years. Stuff I could play ok before is now way down in speed, but the end result will be a lot better (so far it’s sextuplets, I think, at 90bpm - any more isn’t working yet!). It’s a very long term goal but is improving slowly. Just have to stick at these things and they’ll happen eventually!

roberty · October 2022

@Vibetronic not that I'm anywhere near your speed but when I adjusted my picking technique my playing did get worse before it got better. Incorporating the picking into the rest of my playing was tough. I was depping in a ska band at the time and songs that I had played dozens of times before were all of a sudden a struggle. I even dropped my pick at one gig which never happens lol

DLM · October 2022

@Vibetronic Why? What didn't you like? I'm guessing that's from Martin Goulding?

Vibetronic · October 2022

DLM said:

@Vibetronic Why? What didn't you like? I'm guessing that's from Martin Goulding?

I can pick fine on one string, but that fast machine-gun-like (Paul Gilbert, Yngwie etc) picking has always eluded me. I've managed to cover it up by finding my way around it - mixing it with legato so you can't really tell what's not picking unless you're listening really hard - but wanted to get it really good. So totally back to the drawing board. My way works fine, but I'd like to be able to do it properly. I kind of think my strengths lie elsewhere and I may never get to that level, but I'm treating it as a slow-burner over the next couple of years.

roberty said:

@Vibetronic not that I'm anywhere near your speed but when I adjusted my picking technique my playing did get worse before it got better. Incorporating the picking into the rest of my playing was tough. I was depping in a ska band at the time and songs that I had played dozens of times before were all of a sudden a struggle. I even dropped my pick at one gig which never happens lol

oh totally!! If I'm playing out I revert to my usual way of playing, but listening to me practicing this stuff is like listening to a teenager try to shred!! Will hopefully get there or thereabouts though, but it's going to sound crap for a bit!! I still drop my pick anyway btw. Embarrassing but it still happens...always in lessons too!!

roberty · October 2022

@Vibetronic are you familiar Troy Grady's pick slanting theory? Looking specifically at the mechanics of string skipping while alternate picking. It's the sort of thing that can be explained in under a minute but he's managed to stretch it out to several video series! I found it very useful - it demystifies a lot of what goes on while you play

He also does close up videos of the picking hands of well known virtuoso players, and analyses their techniques

This one in particular is a fun watch:

DLM · October 2022

@Vibetronic Yeah, I see that – not that I ever missed it in your playing, but I don't remember your doing the aggressive alternate picking thing on anything you've done over the years. I'm sure there's great satisfaction to building it up properly.

@OP: I have found myself wondering how fast (what BPM) you can play semiquavers smoothly at on a single note? Can you "tremolo pick" 16th notes at 170bpm? For at least as many bars as Gary's "helicopter" lick takes? And accent the notes on the beat?

grappagreen · October 2022

Like others here after much research I identified some fundamental issues with my picking hand etc and ended up radically altering my technique. Took much less time than I thought it would and the results came quickly.. I was a pretty nifty picker with my old technique but can rip in a way I could never get to before.. it was well worth a step back to make progress and I would do the same again if I needed to.

As for practice I watched John Petrucci's video and he was big on speed bursting.. it helped me.

If alternate picking is your focus (not economy) then Paul Gilbert is the man - he dropped something on YT recently with a little exercise on improving upstroke strength. It's pretty much always the weak link for people (not for Paul though is he started playing using all upstrokes) and you always need to work on the weakest area.. I did this for a while and thought 'why am I bothering with this?' It made a big difference in the end..

Hope that helps

Si

roberty · October 2022

@grappagreen I don't think that kind of information was available when I learnt in the 90s. It wasn't available to me anyway

grappagreen · October 2022

roberty said:

@grappagreen I don't think that kind of information was available when I learnt in the 90s. It wasn't available to me anyway

It was tougher back then to find out what the heck it was all about and obviously the content and depth is brilliant for folks today.. I think the demystification has been the thing that has enabled younger players to get there far more quickly that older idiots like me..

allen · October 2022

DLM said:

@OP: I have found myself wondering how fast (what BPM) you can play semiquavers smoothly at on a single note? Can you "tremolo pick" 16th notes at 170bpm? For at least as many bars as Gary's "helicopter" lick takes? And accent the notes on the beat?

I just tried it. Yes, sort of. At 150bpm the picking is even and accurate. At 170bpm it feels like I'm just hanging on and a bit ragged.

Not sure I can tell if I'm accenting as the metronome is accenting, but it's smooth and in time at 150bpm.

roberty · October 2022

grappagreen said:

roberty said:

@grappagreen I don't think that kind of information was available when I learnt in the 90s. It wasn't available to me anyway

It was tougher back then to find out what the heck it was all about and obviously the content and depth is brilliant for folks today.. I think the demystification has been the thing that has enabled younger players to get there far more quickly that older idiots like me..

Yep the internet has accelerated learning for anyone who is motivated to learn. Scientific progress is more rapid now as well

Vibetronic · October 2022

roberty said:

@Vibetronic are you familiar Troy Grady's pick slanting theory? Looking specifically at the mechanics of string skipping while alternate picking. It's the sort of thing that can be explained in under a minute but he's managed to stretch it out to several video series! I found it very useful - it demystifies a lot of what goes on while you play

He also does close up videos of the picking hands of well known virtuoso players, and analyses their techniques

This one in particular is a fun watch:

yeah, I've watched quite a few - it all makes sense, but I learn a bit better from direct instruction/speaking to someone. The annoying thing is that I can see what's going on, what I need to do - it's just getting my hands to do it. On the other hand, they can do plenty of other stuff after a lot of practice so should be able to do this.....hopefully.

DLM said:

@Vibetronic Yeah, I see that – not that I ever missed it in your playing, but I don't remember your doing the aggressive alternate picking thing on anything you've done over the years. I'm sure there's great satisfaction to building it up properly.

nah it's not really there. On the occasion that it is, slightly, I fake it using my own method. Close enough to fool non-players (who, to be fair, probably don't really care anyway!)

Vibetronic · October 2022

update - been hacking away at it for days and had a breakthrough. I've adjusted my pick angle minutely so the upstroke is a bit more aggressive, and it makes a world of difference. I'm now playing runs moderately quickly using strict alternate picking. It's a bit of a mix of what I've been doing in lessons and my own way of playing (my own way being my right-hand still slightly anchored on the body - in lessons I'm not doing this - the right hand is basically a fist, and I find this SO unnatural!!)

digitalkettle · October 2022

Vibetronic said:

update - been hacking away at it for days and had a breakthrough. I've adjusted my pick angle minutely so the upstroke is a bit more aggressive, and it makes a world of difference. I'm now playing runs moderately quickly using strict alternate picking. It's a bit of a mix of what I've been doing in lessons and my own way of playing (my own way being my right-hand still slightly anchored on the body - in lessons I'm not doing this - the right hand is basically a fist, and I find this SO unnatural!!)

I can totally relate to this: right-hand is like a hollow fist? At speed, I still have to have fingers looser and brushing the guitar (slightly anchored).

I try to incorporate downward and upward slant (I think that's old CtC terminology now). Before all this, I used to hold the pick showing as little as possible with my index finger only slightly bent. I probably show 5mm more pick these days and the index had to curl significantly more to avoid fouling the strings...took some getting used to!

roberty · October 2022

Great stuff @Vibetronic - transitioning to a closed grip nearly ruined me. Sounds like you'll get where you want to be before long

One thing I've been trying to do is play powerchords with alternating strokes, making the upstrokes as powerful and as the downstrokes so there is equal stress on both directions. I think this involves the angle shift of the pick you mentioned, the same principle but exaggerated over two or three strings. This is with the hand hovering over the strings, not palm muted

Vibetronic · October 2022

@digitalkettle - closed fist, not hollow; I can do that a bit now, but I’m still anchoring with an open hand whilst I cement the pick angle and movement into muscle memory. I’ll then work on the closed fist as it frees up movement massively. It’s taken me over a year to ‘get it’ - it just suddenly clicked, all through realising the importance of the upstroke. Admittedly I had been practicing/trying a bit more recently. It’s the biggest breakthrough I’ve had in decades though!!

allen · October 2022

Decided to record myself this morning.

A bit disappointed with myself as last night the whole piece was flowing fairly smoothly at 100bpm, but this morning 80 was comfortable and 96/100bpm was not.

Oh well.

Barney · October 2022

allen said:

Decided to record myself this morning.

A bit disappointed with myself as last night the whole piece was flowing fairly smoothly at 100bpm, but this morning 80 was comfortable and 96/100bpm was not.

Oh well.

I don't know iff you have tried this but I found it really helpful ....a lot of the time it's a weak upstroke we have .....it's easy enough to check by playing a scale all downstrokes ...then try playing it all upstrokes at same tempo ..it doesn't need to be fast to isolate any problems.....often it's the upstroke that is weak and by doing that will see iff it is .....iff it is try working on all upstrokes in your practice until they are as easy and fluid as down . ....iff it's the other way on do the opposite

Vibetronic · October 2022

Barney said:

allen said:

Decided to record myself this morning.

A bit disappointed with myself as last night the whole piece was flowing fairly smoothly at 100bpm, but this morning 80 was comfortable and 96/100bpm was not.

Oh well.

I don't know iff you have tried this but I found it really helpful ....a lot of the time it's a weak upstroke we have .....it's easy enough to check by playing a scale all downstrokes ...then try playing it all upstrokes at same tempo ..it doesn't need to be fast to isolate any problems.....often it's the upstroke that is weak and by doing that will see iff it is .....iff it is try working on all upstrokes in your practice until they are as easy and fluid as down . ....iff it's the other way on do the opposite

Exactly what @Barney said @allen - sounds like you're making good progress though. I did precisely this - isolated my upstroke, and the whole thing clicked. The whole process has taken a year but it's worth all the plugging away you're doing.From the look of the video you posted, your thumb (picking hand) is also too close/flat to the strings, so the pick will never 'escape' properly and that's where you're getting that snagging. I actually photographed my hand so I didn't forget the position; can post if it helps. Also try loosening up your right arm/wrist - whole thing should move as it is but it looks a little stiff. The action is kind of the relaxed feel that strumming chords should have but in a smaller area. I found this the hardest. Keep going, looks like you're doing a great job!

allen · October 2022

Thanks for the feedback chaps.

I don't really feel any weakness in my upstroke although I will have a look at it to see if it will help.

Thumb too close - yes, that happens to me. I haven't perfected the 'ideal' way to hold my pick, and my fingers sweat so it moves about a bit between takes.

Arm too stiff - yes, totally agree. At very slow speeds I can get exactly that feel you describe of 'strumming' loosely through the lines, but at higher speeds I'm either a bit tense (due to concentrating) and/or am trying to keep control of it to maintain the speed. I have previously spent time learning fast SRV things and I can keep my arm looser for that.

roberty · October 2022

@allen looks like a lot of movement is coming from your shoulder. I would try to isolate the movement to the wrist for exercises like this. I think it will help in the long run

digitalkettle · October 2022

I think this passage is devilishly tricky: the first couple of bars is a 'brute force' alternate picking thing (which you've switched out for some economy...I think that's a wrong turn in this context). Then there are many position shifts with bits of legato along the B string until you get to the money shot. I'm wondering if you should start building up with something more 'uniform'?

Vibetronic · October 2022

digitalkettle said:

I think this passage is devilishly tricky: the first couple of bars is a 'brute force' alternate picking thing (which you've switched out for some economy...I think that's a wrong turn in this context). Then there are many position shifts with bits of legato along the B string until you get to the money shot. I'm wondering if you should start building up with something more 'uniform'?

I was going to say roughly the same thing - the tab I have is different to where he played it, but either way it’s a tricky sequence to get started with.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

I've been trying to learn some fast picking very methodically...here's how it's going

Comments