Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

relic245 · September 2022

axisus said:.
That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

Agreed and that is what keeps many players (myself included) stuck for a long time.

I got the theory but the problem was that I could also comprehend the amount of work involved to internalise it and it scared me.

What I didn't realise is that you don't need to know all of it!

Even just a tiny amount will take you ahead of where you are now.

I first learned the notes on the fretboard. This took about a month of 10 minutes a day. 1 string at a time going round the circle of 5ths in both directions until I could instantly to to a C or F# or whatever on any string.

From there I learned where the 3rd and 5th were in relation to that and started targeting them and at the same time being consiously aware that I was. That was quite a big deal if I'm honest but like most things got easier.

The I added more notes, one a time over a period of weeks and even months (this is ongoing for me as I'm not there yet)

But it does get easier. Once you know where you 5th is you already know where your b6 is as it's 1 fret higher. You just have to practice it until you wire it in.

For me that "I want to know it all now" mindset really did (and still does) hold me back. I guess I'd love to be a master of the modes without putting in the flying hours but sadly that approach didn't work in the last 40 or so years so I'm gradually doing the work now.

rocktron · September 2022

Sorry, I removed this post!!!

On second thoughts, I didn't think shredding met the requirements of the OP.

Dominic · October 2022

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

.... knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords.

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

It's also about ear training ........of course it's almost impossible to take an unfamiliar song and instantly suss out the underlying chords and translate those through your fingers on the fly
BUT,BUT,BUT
Once you understand song structure and your ear picks it up quick you can almost predict the next chord or sequence of chords especially as many are cliches or well known progressions ....especially in pop ,rock,country, trad Jazz
You will know quickly what key you are in ........you will know the style of music
Once your ear has been tuned in to certain sounds you will pick up on the chord extensions/complexities
Ask yourself this ;
Does your know what a Major 7 sounds like ?
Does your ear know what a Dominant 7 sounds like ?
Once heard you cannot mistake the sound of an half diminished .....
Do you recognise the sound of a simple major dropping to the minor of the same chord ie the sound of flattening a 3rd
Spend an hour strumming a 2,5,1( you already know what a 1,4,5 sounds like ) ......your ear will never forget it
it's a typical overused progression ......you will hear so many songs in your head
then see if you can arpeggiate it
Mix these in with your Pentatonics appropriately and a huge vocabulary will open up just from that

axisus · October 2022

About time to say thanks all for the input, loads of good ideas! I'm copying all the good stuff into a Word file for reference. No excuses this time!

Flink_Poyd · October 2022

Something I like doing is playing over a drone track. Youtube has loads of them with different instruments. If youre using backing tracks they can tend to keep you in that style/box/feeling. Having the space to noodle around without worrying about hitting chord changes frees you up a bit and even though you might revert back to the old habits/blues scale theyll sound a bit different.

octatonic · October 2022

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

.... knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords.

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

This is why it takes years, it is also why you need to play slowly.
It isn't too advanced- you can do it if you approach it properly.
Start with a blues in A.

A, D and E7.

The chord tones are this:

A: A C# E
D : D F# A
E7: E G# B D

The thing to concentrate on first is the turnaround, which is a I V7.
So you are going from A C# E to E G# B D.
Play these as arpeggios to a backing track and notice how the chord changes.

Or look at a ii V I in C:

Dm7: DFAC
G7: GBDF
Cmaj7: CEGB

When playing a ii V I you break it down to two chord changes, the ii to the V and then the V to the I

So play Dm7 (DFAC) as an arpeggio (to a backing track) and transition to V (GBDF).
Notice that two of the notes are common to each chord.

Then play V I as a backing track:
G7: GBDF to Cmaj7: CEGB.
Notice that two of the notes are common to each chord too.

Think about what is the 3rd and 7th of each chord too.
G7's are B and F, Cmaj7's are E and B.
These are the important notes.
Hold on.... the B is common to both, right? Yes.
In a V I the 3rd of the V chord is the 7th of the I chord.

These are two fairly simple examples- but start there.
Once you have this down you can expand.
If you can't do this then other stuff will be too hard.

It all needs to be done very very slowly.
Half the speed you think, mostly likely.
Or slower.

DLM · October 2022

Fix for above post to avoid confusion:

octatonic said:

Or look at a ii V I in C:

octatonic · October 2022

Yes, a typo.

guitarjack66 · October 2022

Just to add a smidge to this discussion,I had no idea that in rock/pop etc,that slash chords are often used in place of diminished chords?

KevS · October 2022

OK...Grab yer position 1 Pentatonic Minor Shape...

Look on it as a Picture frame..

in That Frame by adding 2 notes,,
you can get Dorian ,Phrygian or Aeolian / Natural Minor

So the A Pentatonic Minor is present in A Dorian,, A Phrygian and A Aeolian..

add 2 and 6 for Dorian,,add Flat 2 and Flat 6 for Phrygian and 2 and flat 6 for Aelian..

Then Grab Yer Position 1 Major Pentatonic,,same as Position 2 Minor Pentatonic..

Look on it as a picture Frame.

Add 2 and 6 you get a Major / Ionian...From there sharpen your fourth and you get Lydian..
Or flatten the 7th in you Major you get Mixolydian..

So A Pentatonic major is present in A Major,,A Lydian and A Mixolydian..

You can play around or across chords...
So say you are playing against C A minor F G..
You can play a C Major Scale against this..
If you are Playing against C A7 F G.
You will need to depart from that..

So You can play,,

An A Bluesy Lick or an A7 Arpeggio,,
I neglected arpeggios early on..
When playing around chords they are definitely handy and worth learning..
You can do much more with them too..

There are other options for the A7,,but that might muddle you just now..

OK play a B flat Diminished 7 arpeggio on the A7..
Hopefully that will spark some interest to learn what is happening and move beyond the Major Scale....

ToneControl · October 2022

have you learned how to move from the blues minor scale into the related harmonic minor scale?
Usually it's at the end of a verse, on a certain chord. Santana does it a lot, and the Scorpions for example (as dop many others)

also listen to Steve Hillage, often very bouncy jolly solos

try soloing in major keys as well

KevS · October 2022

Major 7 chord think Fluffy clouds..Gymnopedies by Erik Satie

Dominant 7 Think of a Bluesy Southern Gospel Choir of the Non White Ethnicity..

Minor 7th a bit more Sophisticated sounding,,it is a much less intense Minor..
Make your own little picture or connection..
It's also an inversion of a Major Six Chord,,learn the Arpeggio and get 2 for 1..

Minor 7 Flat 5 ,a Darker sounding Minor,,sometimes called Half Diminished
,,also an inversion of a Minor 6th Chord..
I connect it with Autumn Leaves,,
You can use it for substitutions of other stuff too..
Why learning Arpeggios is so useful and cool..

kelpbeds · October 2022

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

axisus · October 2022

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

kelpbeds · October 2022

axisus said:

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

No worries, i'm sure it will really help you!

Ridley · October 2022

Or maybe you don't need to get out of pentatonic, just out of the box perhaps, interesting point by Phil X on this very subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvTD_GV99w&ab_channel=PhilXOfficialFanClub

Scales starts up at 6:40

guitarjack66 · October 2022

kelpbeds said:

axisus said:

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

No worries, i'm sure it will really help you!

Just subscribed. Will take a better look later today.

kelpbeds · December 2022

guitarjack66 said:

kelpbeds said:

axisus said:

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

No worries, i'm sure it will really help you!

Just subscribed. Will take a better look later today.

Great stuff!

Ddigger · December 2022

Ridley said:

Or maybe you don't need to get out of pentatonic, just out of the box perhaps, interesting point by Phil X on this very subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvTD_GV99w&ab_channel=PhilXOfficialFanClub

Scales starts up at 6:40

FretJam is a useful site and free...

Their latest lesson is on...

Alternate Pentatonic Scales - Phrasing Pathways

https://www.fretjam.com/different-pentatonic-scales.html

guitarjack66 · December 2022

Ddigger said:

Ridley said:

Or maybe you don't need to get out of pentatonic, just out of the box perhaps, interesting point by Phil X on this very subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvTD_GV99w&ab_channel=PhilXOfficialFanClub

Scales starts up at 6:40

FretJam is a useful site and free...

Their latest lesson is on...
Alternate Pentatonic Scales - Phrasing Pathways
https://www.fretjam.com/different-pentatonic-scales.html

Fretjam,Samjam and Fret Science are very useful youtube channels. Fret Science is quite new but looks promising.

roberty · December 2022

Connecting pentatonics horizontally

https://youtu.be/RCPRqZFjML0

You can do a lot with pentatonics tbf and fill it in with colour tones here and there

roberty · December 2022

Blues outside the box

https://youtu.be/00pQ4yFn0Bw

PeteC · December 2022

Bit late - but speaking as someone who went through the same frustrations in my early 50s (good rock player but stuck in pentatonic soloing) my advice would be to spend time learning the major, minor, augmented and diminished triads on the different sets of three strings, and then learn their positions up and down the neck. Guthrie Trapp, Tom Bukovac and Tomo Fujita are all big proponents of this. Once you have knowledge of the triads your lead playing will open up quickly and youll probably be surprised how well you can move around the neck when youre improvising over stuff. Tomo has some good stuff on YT on this, as does Guthrie Trapp.

Just knowing that a chord progression moves from say Gmajor to Eminor 7 means you already have tons of single line options using your triads. Later you can start adding chromatics amd other scale tones around your triads. Daniel Weiss has some fabulous videos on YT showing how to do this.

Good luck and have fun with it.

viz · December 2022

Another thing to do, is think about the notes that are absent from the penta scale, and start using them, accentuating them even.

So, say you’re in a minor key, for example, A minor.

Like any minor penta, you have the 1, m3, 4, 5, m7 and 8. In A minor, that’s A, C, D, E, G, A.

But the 2 and the 6 are absent from this pentatonic scale. These two notes are crucial for adding colour to the base-palette that is pentatonic.

The 2 (or 9) can be used to provide questioning, or mysterious flavours; the 6 can be used to provide tragic or uplifting flavours (amongst other flavours too of course, but this is a good start)

So as an example, try adding a 2 or 9 to your penta noodling, not a b9 for the time being, but a normal 9 - a B in other words. And hone in on that note while you noodle. Give it a bit of length, a bit of accentuation. Slide up to it from the A a couple of times. Try using it instead of the m3. Try using it instead of the 1. Give it some space. Taste it. In time you’ll sound a bit jazzy.

Or remove the 9 and add a 6. Try adding a major 6th first, an F#. Again, try and hone in on it as you noodle past it. Try playing it without the 7th. By switching the sad m7 for an upbeat 6, you are lifting the mood significantly.

(You can get these notes by playing the fret marker notes on the A string, by the way: A C D E F# A.)

Now try a flattened 6th instead, and put the 7th back in. Now you have a more tragic scale than penta which is a bit bland. That flattened (minor) 6th imparts the most sorrow into any minor piece. A C D E F G A.

Or you could try using a b2 (or b9). You can do it with or without the b6. This starts to make the music dark and mysterious. A Bb C D E (F) G A.

You can even do a b9 with a normal 6. This is slightly unusual but it has a lovely unique sound, once you get familiar with it. It’s a mode of melodic minor, incidently. And by the way, by doing these things above, you are inadvertantly experimenting with the diatonic modes - Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian.

Fun times.

axisus · December 2022

The last two posts go way too technical for a duffer like me! I appreciate them of course, but I could never consider that level of theory without an actual teacher, something that I don't have time or money for at present.

viz · December 2022

axisus said:

The last two posts go way too technical for a duffer like me! I appreciate them of course, but I could never consider that level of theory without an actual teacher, something that I don't have time or money for at present.

Fair enough. Ok, for adding the 2 (or 9) in the example above, you can cheat:

Over an A minor chord, Instead of playing Am penta around fret 5 like you normally do, move your whole hand up to fret 12 (or down to the nut), and play Em penta. That effectively adds the 2, at the expense of the 3.

(Remember that the root of the scale is still the A (fret 2 or 14 on the G string and the open A string (or fret 12 on the A))).

Or if you want to add a 6, still over an Am backing chord, move your whole hand up two frets from the Am position to fret 7, and play Bm penta. That adds the 6 (it also adds the 2), and it removes the 3 and the 7.

(Remember again that the root of the scale is still A. Fret 10 on the B string and fret 7 on the D string).

Both those hacks let you learn the flavours of the 2 and the 6 within an Am context. Once you are totally familiar with the new sounds (after a week or two), try going back to fret 5, reading my earlier post, and introducing those new sounds into your traditional Am penta fingering.

axisus · December 2022

viz said:

axisus said:

The last two posts go way too technical for a duffer like me! I appreciate them of course, but I could never consider that level of theory without an actual teacher, something that I don't have time or money for at present.

Fair enough. Ok, for adding the 2 (or 9) in the example above, you can cheat:

Over an A minor chord, Instead of playing Am penta around fret 5 like you normally do, move your whole hand up to fret 12 (or down to the nut), and play Em penta. That effectively adds the 2, at the expense of the 3.

Or if you want to add a 6, still over an Am backing chord, move your whole hand up two frets from the Am position to fret 7, and play Bm penta. That adds the 6 (it also adds the 2), and it removes the 3 and the 7.

Both those hacks let you learn the flavours of the 2 and the 6 within an Am context. Once you are totally familiar with the new sounds (after a week or two), try going back to fret 5, reading my earlier post, and introducing those new sounds into your traditional Am penta fingering.

I'll give it a try!

Gizmo · January 2023

Not sure if this (or it's like) has been posted....but drop the 4th & 5th from your MBS and you'll have a minor 7b5 Arpeggio to shred with,Quite Greg howe'ish...a good break down here

Or drop the 4th and Minor 7 from a natural minor/Aeolian scale and get the Hirajoshi Scale

Rio · January 2023

I'm probably commenting as one who should not, but I have two suggestions.

1) Stay pentatonic for now and concentrate on a "call and response" feel to your playing. The aimless noodling drops away, and now the music is having a conversation with itself.

2) Noodle, but as you do, throw in a real stinker of a note that "doesn't fit", then try to feel where that note wants to go. Fight your way back to the pentatonic.

Rio

LionAquaLooper · January 2023

The problem isn't necessarily the scale you use. End of the day the blues scale is just a pentatonic with a flat fifth. That's 6 notes. Most western scales have 7 (8 if you count the octave root note). If you're playing in key and using a pentatonic, fundamentally speaking you're already playing 5 notes out of those 7. There's really not much more you can do than add the 2 additional notes of the scale if the backing chords are straightforward. I find it's more important to know how to use the notes on that scale and when. Play a pentatonic against a 1-4-5 progression and you'll sound bluesy. Play the same pentatonic against a jazzier progression in the same key and you'll sound jazzier (as long as you play to the rhythm).

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Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

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Alternate Pentatonic Scales - Phrasing Pathways

Alternate Pentatonic Scales - Phrasing Pathways