Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

HAL9000 · September 2022

For more melodic soloing - major pentatonics and chord tones are your friends.

Don’t be afraid to mix major and minor pentatonics.

viz · September 2022

Loads of good advice here, and I heartily agree with all of it - Octatonic's points in particular resonate with me: committing the basics of harmonic theory to memory, and then to muscle memory, so that they're totally inbuilt, is fundamental, and there's a lifetime of joy to be had there alone; but then the multiverses of new options that spring off that foundation are limitless.

I reckon if you went to a teacher and showed him/her where you were in your playing and asked for some tips to help you make a step change to the next level, that would inspire you.

Also, this post below is really excellent; if you could go through this, slowly, with someone to demonstrate on a piano what's been written, it would be really helpful for you.

steamabacus said:

Here's an avenue that might prove fruitful for expanding beyond the pentatonic scale into the modes.

First of all, try and get the pentatonic scale under your fingers all over the neck - commonly split into 5 'positions' - so that you can slip between positions easily and thus move up and down the neck fluidly.

If you look at the pentatonic scale, there are five notes from the major/minor diatonic scale and the same relationship between major and 'relative minor' as the full diatonic scale.

C major and A minor share the same notes (the white keys on the piano keyboard) just starting from a different note - C D E F G A B (C major) or A B C D E F G (A minor)

I guess most people default to the Minor Pentatonic Scale    - eg. A Minor Pentatonic   A C D E G

The relative Major Pentatonic Scale would be -                              C Major Pentatonic C D E G A

(So the A Minor Pentatonic Scale and the C Major Pentatonic Scale share exactly the same notes - just as the A Minor Scale and the C Major Scale share exactly the same notes)

Now, THE MODES (cue foreboding music)

There are 7 modes of the major/minor diatonic scale and they all have strange greek names -

Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian

For the purpose of this discussion, forget about the Locrian Mode as it's the 'weird one' and isn't too common in most music listened to by most people in the west (it has a flattened fifth which makes it the modal black sheep of the family).

Which leaves us six remaining modes - three major (ie they have a major third) and three minor (minor third)

Ionian Lydian Mixolydian    are major modes

Aeolian  Dorian Phrygian are minor modes

These modes are all seven note scales but the three major modes all share five notes (only two vary) and the three minor modes all share five notes (again, only two vary).

Hang on! Five notes?

Pentatonic means 'five tones' doesn't it?

That's right, the three major modes all share the notes of the Major Pentatonic Scale. The three minor modes all share the notes of the Minor Pentatonic Scale.

So, sticking with our A minor/C major white notes examples.

C Ionian is      C D E F G A B
C Lydian is          C D E F# G A B
C Mixolydian is   C D E F G A Bb

(C Major Pentatonic in bold)

A Aeolian is         A B C D E F G
A Dorian is           A B C D E F# G
A Phrygian is       A Bb C D E F G

(A Minor Pentatonic in bold)

So, if you know your pentatonic scales, all you need to do is fill in those three fret, tone-and-a-half gaps in the fingerings depending on the specific mode. These are the notes which define the 'sound' of a particular mode (beyond the basic major/minor tonality defined by the third).

For example, the 'sound' of A Phrygian mode is defined firstly by the root note (A), secondly by the third (C, 'minor') and finally by the flattened second (Bb).

In the same way, Dorian is a minor mode defined by the major sixth, Lydian is a major mode defined by its sharpened fourth, Mixolydian is a major mode defined by its flattened seventh. This is all relative to the diatonic C major/A minor scale. Ionian mode is the same as the major scale, Aeolian the same as the (natural) minor scale.

Of course there's still the need for hours of practice and repetition to get the fretboard shapes under your fingers but hopefully this helps some people break through the confusion. You do need know your pentatonic shapes first though.

PAL · September 2022

Try playing something different to what you normally play that will require you to step outside the pentatonic scale.
Listen to a different type of music than you usually do and get inspired. Good luck.

viz · September 2022

Another excellent thing to do is to play vocal melodies. Singers don’t tend to sing in pentatonics (unless you’re one of the singers in The Pentatonics); so just try to play vocal tunes. Like Freddie’s lines in We are the Champions, for example. Anything like that that has a decent choon.

stickyfiddle · September 2022

Melody melody melody.

Don't think in terms of scales and modes when you're playing. Just think of melodies that fit with the chords ahead of you and learn to play those. I'm not saying it's simple because you need a good ear for melody and a good ability to translate what's in your head into what's under your fingers but it's the best way to learn

And to get there the best way is to learn other people's melodies - vocals, solos, bass lines, horn parts, classical stuff - ANYTHING. Take it, chunk it down into smaller parts and learn it by ear. It's honestly the only way to really get there.

roberty · September 2022

@guitars4you I know what you mean about backing tracks. They are fun to noodle over but it's hard to stay inspired for 10 solid minutes. A good solo should tell a story to coin ba cliche. You don't get any sense of song development or narrative with a looping backing track

jpfamps · September 2022

viz said:

Another excellent thing to do is to play vocal melodies. Singers don’t tend to sing in pentatonics (unless you’re one of the singers in The Pentatonics); so just try to play vocal tunes. Like Freddie’s lines in We are the Champions, for example. Anything like that that has a decent choon.

Jaco Pastorius recommended always learning the melody of the songs you are playing.

It's also unlikely that the vocal melody will be so fast / complex that it will be techniquely impossible for you to play.

It is worth pointing out that plenty of jazz standards employ pentatonic melody lines.

Springywheel · September 2022

I had a bit of a breakthrough recently where I just wacked a backing track up and played the notes without thinking of patterns....usually I'd be like ''ok, phrygian in E...12th fret, third CAGED pattern" and blitz my way through that..... ok so that may be a quick way to get anchored....but try working your way horizontally across the neck without thinking too much of patterns, but instead use your ear to 'hear as you play'; you'll slowly over time start forging a connection between your ear, fingers and the intervallic relationship between all the notes. I'm no expert at this and occasionally i will refer back to CAGED to regain my bearings - but im slowly getting better. Don't worry about bogging yourself down with chord tones and complex theory for now; you know what sounds good. Later on you can figure out why it sounds good (because this is the third of that backing chord, this is a fifth etc.). I'd start by dedicating a week or so to just improvising in each mode - have fun with it and don't be in a rush to 'get good'. Don't sweat about hitting the 'wrong' note - there's a saying about only being a half step away from the right one...this is true in most cases. Also don't think about 'escaping' the blues scale, but rather 'expand' upon it - you can easily go from blues minor for example, to phrygian, natural minor and dorian. Blues provides a great foundation for exploring other musical avenues.

HAL9000 · September 2022

…and watch this…

https://youtu.be/zSTAvmXG5m8

stufisher · September 2022

This thread is brilliant ... so much good input.

I don't suffer from being bored with anything I just change my perspective. So, when I've reached saturation with blues backing tracks, scales, modes, etc I stop playing electric guitar for a couple of days and play acoustic, maybe with drop D or DADGAD or open tunings and slide.

A change is as good as a rest they say. I find the reeducation of my fingers, brain, posture, picking style and obviously choice of music works wonders so when I return to play rock guitar leads etc. I am totally refreshed.

I also never really try and learn a song or solo note perfect ... I agree with comments about imagining what it would sound like for the first time ... it's truly liberating. Fingers do find the rights frets, shapes, strings, bends, effects etc. but very rarely first time. It's great fun and inevitably it leads you to cultivate your own style.

BTW ... I am still totally crap ... but I'm also fearless in my approach to having a go at anything. I WILL improve and I know this so I never think too much about it.

I love guitar me !

mudslide73 · September 2022

fastonebaz said:

Search

Backing track E major

In youtube, and stick to major keys

and force yourself to play along in major scale (obvs need to learn it first) but soon you'll memorise the patterns and be shredding in the lydian and mixolodyian modes and never look back.

That's how I got out of the pentatonics only rut. I printed out the major scale across the neck and jammed it over Quist's backing tracks on YouTube. I worked on the patterns then memorised the starting points for the modes I wanted to use.

HAL9000 · September 2022

My twopenn’orth - as useful as they are. minor pentatonics can actually end up holding you back. Most of us will have learnt minor pentatonics fairly early on as a simple route into blues soloing. However it then becomes way too easy to rely on them rather than progressing much further. Also, I see way too many people who just run up and down the pentatonics and that’s exactly what it sounds like - somebody playing scales rather than playing a solo.

Also, take a look at this thread..

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/233164/eric-clapton-reconsider-baby#

…to see how a minor pentatonic can be used to great effect.

viz · September 2022

jpfamps said:

viz said:

Another excellent thing to do is to play vocal melodies. Singers don’t tend to sing in pentatonics (unless you’re one of the singers in The Pentatonics); so just try to play vocal tunes. Like Freddie’s lines in We are the Champions, for example. Anything like that that has a decent choon.

.

It is worth pointing out that plenty of jazz standards employ pentatonic melody lines.

I’m sure you’re right, I just couldn’t think of any at the time - have u got any examples?

edit - got one - the way you wear your hat.

jpfamps · September 2022

viz said:

jpfamps said:

viz said:

Another excellent thing to do is to play vocal melodies. Singers don’t tend to sing in pentatonics (unless you’re one of the singers in The Pentatonics); so just try to play vocal tunes. Like Freddie’s lines in We are the Champions, for example. Anything like that that has a decent choon.

.

It is worth pointing out that plenty of jazz standards employ pentatonic melody lines.

I’m sure you’re right, I just couldn’t think of any at the time - have u got any examples?

edit - got one - the way you wear your hat.

The A section from Girl From Ipanema mainly uses penatonic scales.

Of course there are a multitube of ways of employing pentatonic scales, eg play Em pentatonic over a Cmaj7, and I expect most players (myself included) have barely scratched the surface of hoe you can employ pentatonic scales.

CaseOfAce · September 2022

I've been playing pentatonic scales for years - and I'm still learning new tricks, phrasing, colour notes... I don't think I'll ever stop using them and finding new ways to play them.

roberty · September 2022

Been enjoying Tim Pearce's vids. Plenty of stuff to nick. It's quite technical but pop rather than shred. He mixes diatonic and pentatonic well

guitars4you · September 2022

viz said:

Another excellent thing to do is to play vocal melodies. Singers don’t tend to sing in pentatonics (unless you’re one of the singers in The Pentatonics); so just try to play vocal tunes. Like Freddie’s lines in We are the Champions, for example. Anything like that that has a decent choon.

stickyfiddle said:

Melody melody melody.

Don't think in terms of scales and modes when you're playing. Just think of melodies that fit with the chords ahead of you and learn to play those. I'm not saying it's simple because you need a good ear for melody and a good ability to translate what's in your head into what's under your fingers but it's the best way to learn

And to get there the best way is to learn other people's melodies - vocals, solos, bass lines, horn parts, classical stuff - ANYTHING. Take it, chunk it down into smaller parts and learn it by ear. It's honestly the only way to really get there.

My dad was a sax player - ex pro for a while and a good competent player - Yet he always wished he was a better jazz/improvisation player - If he came to see me at any guitar show, and or visit the shop, upon hearing many players, he always asked why they just aimlessly wander through a host of scales/exercises and pointless noodling and never play a tune

When I spoke further to him about this he always said, build a solo from within the melody - That doesn't mean copy it - But build around it - Use key notes that follow the chord and imply the melody - Use these as your anchor , then add 'passing notes' as required to 'jazz' it up - He said this applies to say a classic song like Girl from Ipanema, or a jazz/blues, uptempo/swing, jump n jive rock n roll song , which was his main forte - I asked what scales he might use for say a 12 bar, major and/or minor pentatonic, various modes etc - He said as an overview none - Melody first all the time, coupled with the rhythm/groove of the song

Danny1969 · September 2022

One thing to be aware of, where many players can come unstuck is a lot of songs are pretty diatonic and you can widdle away and in general it will sound fine .. if a little uninspiring but some songs will use borrowed chords or will actually change key mid way through a part.

Take something simple like Creep, just 4 chords right in Gmaj ! .. but there's 2 borrowed chords in there and unless you know it's a Bmaj and the Cmaj turns minor then you will come unstick because some notes in the scale of Gmaj won't sit well with the borrowed chords at all ... the D will need sharpening over the Bmaj and the E will need flattening over the C minor

Another example, try using one scale to solo over the Wuthering Heights chorus progression ... which is the outro solo ..it's not easy because it modulates and shifts keys in a kind of passing way. Trust me, it's caught me out

So phrasing is very important. A knowledge of modes will help with flavouring a solo but your number one weapon is knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords. That information will keep you from hitting any bum notes and allow you to strike some great notes that frame the underlying chord. That's the secret of melodic versus mechanical soloing.

LastMantra · September 2022

As well as what's being discussed, I would ditch the backing tracks and get a looper.
That should open up loads of stuff.

Lewy · September 2022

Danny1969 said:

Take something simple like Creep, just 4 chords right in Gmaj ! .. but there's 2 borrowed chords in there

There's an entire borrowed song in there!

axisus · September 2022

Danny1969 said:

.... knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords.

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

viz · September 2022

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

.... knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords.

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

Thing is though that it’s normally either modulating to a new key, in which case you need to reset your frame of ref, or it’s borrowing a chord, which tend to have 1 or 2 critical different notes. In Creep, the second chord G#7 is an (unresolving) secondary dominant, it has a C (well, a B#) instead of a B, so you can hone in on that. Everything else is the same. Then it has an A (which has a C# like normal) then an Am (melodic minor) which has a C instead of C# (same note as above).

So you can play it all in E, but on the 2nd and 4th chords, get the C sounding.

That sounds like lots of forethought, but really it’s just knowing the iii becomes a III, and the IV becomes a iv, and the 3rd of each of those chords is the one you’re going to alter and hone in on.

HAL9000 · September 2022

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

.... knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords.

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

Really, it’s not as advanced as it might at first sound. You don’t need to be able to name all the notes in a chord - you do need to know a few shapes though…

Imagine an A chord - the one with the barre on the 5th fret. You’ll see that the 3rd string is fretted at the 6th fret; the 2nd is fretted at the 5th fret.

Now, put your first finger on 2nd string 5th fret, and your middle finger on the 3rd string 6th fret. This is a subset of the full chord. Now play the third string followed by the second string. There you go - a little two note lick that will work over an A chord.

Now form that shape nearer to the nut and slide it up to the ‘A’ position before playing the same two notes as before - sounds a bit more interesting doesn’t it?

Now play the same shape but with your first finger at the 2nd string 10th fret, and ring finger at the 3rd string 11th fret and you’re playing part of a D chord. Slide it up two more frets and it’s an E. You now have a ‘movable’ lick.

As long as you know where the barre chords sit on the fretboard then you can move licks to follow the chords - all without being able to name the notes.

OK, it’s a simple example but you get the idea that you can target chord tones fairly easily.

Hope that’s helpful.

axisus · September 2022

viz said:

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

.... knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords.

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

Thing is though that it’s normally either modulating to a new key, in which case you need to reset your frame of ref, or it’s borrowing a chord, which tend to have 1 or 2 critical different notes. In Creep, the second chord G#7 is an (unresolving) secondary dominant, it has a C (well, a B#) instead of a B, so you can hone in on that. Everything else is the same. Then it has an A (which has a C# like normal) then an Am (melodic minor) which has a C instead of C# (same note as above).

So you can play it all in E, but on the 2nd and 4th chords, get the C sounding.

That sounds like lots of forethought, but really it’s just knowing the iii becomes a III, and the IV becomes a iv, and the 3rd of each of those chords is the one you’re going to alter and hone in on.

Head explodes ....

Danny1969 · September 2022

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

.... knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords.

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

I'm not saying guess the chords as they pop up, I'm saying before you play along to a BT or solo over a section with a band make a point of knowing what the chords are first. Then you can target the notes you know will sound great and hit them at the same time the chord changes. That's the secret, hitting the right note as one chord changes to another. Think of all the famous melodic solo's .... Time, Parisienne Walkways, First solo from Comfortably numb, Hotel California ... they all use the trick of targeting a note just as the chord changes so the note played resolves into the new chord. That's how you get a melodic solo.

This target note is generally a 1, 3rd or 5th of the new chord so it's an easy thing to remember. Try it on a slow minor blues progression so there's plenty of time to think. Another fun progression with plenty of time to think is the Purple Rain outro solo, just 4 chords but hit the right target notes in the solo and it can sound great.

There is a "you first" technique we use for jamming where you hear the unknown chord on the 1 beat and then you repeat it on the 2 or play a lick on the 2 that compliments the chord but that doesn't have the same melodic effect as hitting a great target note at the same time the chord changes ... for this you need to know what chords are coming in advance.

LastMantra · September 2022

CaseOfAce said:

I've been playing pentatonic scales for years - and I'm still learning new tricks, phrasing, colour notes... I don't think I'll ever stop using them and finding new ways to play them.

That's how I feel really. If it's good enough for all those guitar legends.

mgaw · September 2022

Lewy said:

If you put your backing track on, didn’t pick up your guitar, and just tried to hum or sing a solo instead of play one, would you come up with something less boring do you think?

Tbh I would go with the above, I struggle to knuckle down and make it easier for myself, but, singing it out makes for some proper soulful guitar playing, perhaps?

Rocker · September 2022

Get yourself a bass. With a bass in your hand you learn what is actually important in playing music. You will see a bigger picture........

Lewy · September 2022

axisus said:

What I need to do is find a good resource and treat it like an exam subject, break it down and try and make sure that at least a bit of attention is put in every day.

I don't think all the theory that people are dropping here is going to help you particularly because as you say you struggle to get your head around it and also it's a huge ocean you have to boil a cup full at a time to really get to grips with. You also need to start with knowing what you do and don't like to hear, not with learning all the modes and then working out how to apply them. So, reflecting on what you've said above, how about this as an approach:

Resource: Your top 3 favourite bits of recorded guitar playing

Exercise:

1) Find a short passage of melodic lead playing (i.e. tuneful not thrashing about whammy bending mayhem) that really grabs your ear. No more than a few bars, and ideally there won't be any big jumps from low to high notes.
2) Listen to it on repeat enough so that you can sing it to yourself (even if only in your head). If it's really your favourite you might even be able to do this straight away
3) Work out the key, and what the chords are (or it could just be one chord...depends on what it is)
4) Get your guitar, and base yourself around your trusty blue box in the appropriate key
5) Try and find that melody in and around your blues box

Purpose: you'll learn one of two things - 1) that actually, all the notes in the melody were in your blues box all along and it's more about choosing which notes from within it you use when and how (a.k.a. phrasing) or 2) apart from one or two notes, it uses notes which are neighbours to the ones you know in your blues box. See them as little detours from the shape you already know

6) Visualise those little detour notes and really listen to how they sound. You need repetition to log it in
7) Stick on one of your backing tracks and try some of them out! Some won't work, but SOME WILL! You'll have added some flavours to your familiar pentatonic casserole and most importantly you will have learned which ones to choose based on how they sound. You don't have to learn everything, you just have to listen to music, be receptive to hearing those thing that make you go "yeah!" and then go and find them on your guitar.
8) Repeat for the rest of your listening and playing life.

It's up to you whether you want to then start trying understand why those good sounding notes "work" from a theoretical point of view. Many great players just "know where the good sounding notes are" and stick with that, and there's no reason you can't do that too.

digitalkettle · September 2022

Lewy said:

axisus said:

What I need to do is find a good resource and treat it like an exam subject, break it down and try and make sure that at least a bit of attention is put in every day.

...
Resource: Your top 3 favourite bits of recorded guitar playing

Exercise:

1) Find a short passage of melodic lead playing (i.e. tuneful not thrashing about whammy bending mayhem) that really grabs your ear. No more than a few bars, and ideally there won't be any big jumps from low to high notes.
2) Listen to it on repeat enough so that you can sing it to yourself (even if only in your head). If it's really your favourite you might even be able to do this straight away
...

I feel some Steve Rothery coming up!

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

Comments