Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

axisus · September 2022

I struggle to learn theory to be honest, but I'm soooo bored of my blues scale only playing, I need to find something new. I'm a bit long in the tooth at 59, and I have always failed at any attempt to get anywhere with theory in the past. I'm very clever at some stuff (IQ 141) but I have a 'spectrum' side of me that fails as some tasks that I really should be able to do.

All I ever seem to do is put on a backing track, work out the basic key then noodle away with the minor blues scale. I recycle the same old things when I play. There must be more to life than this!!!!

What I need to do is find a good resource and treat it like an exam subject, break it down and try and make sure that at least a bit of attention is put in every day.

Also, apologies to anyone who has already offered to help in the past, all I can say is that I'm trying again!

So, can anyone recommend what would be a good direction to go, and also if they know of a good resource?

relic245 · September 2022

My first thought would be to think about your attitude to learning.

starting out with “I struggle to learn theory” and then making an excuse for your age isn’t going to get you in a good frame of mind. Its also giving you ready made excuses when you come across a hurdle.

im only a couple of years behind you in age and I relish learning new stuff. Not just on guitar.

Get excited about the idea of learning something new and not just trying to escape boredom and you’ll find it a lot easier.

I recently started to learn modes. Chose 1 at random (Phrygian) got a backing track, did a bit of reading, watched a ton of YouTube vids and was having fun in no time.

then I moved on to Dorian and was sounding like Santana in a few minutes.

it’s not hard but you do have to be prepared to apply yourself.

good luck.

Roland · September 2022

Try this for inspiration https://youtube.com/c/guthrietrappmusic

Danny1969 · September 2022

The best way is to first work out the chords in the backing tracks. Once you know what chords are used in the backing track you can target certain notes that you know will sound good over the chord.

So try this, every time the chord changes target either the 3rd or the fifth note of that chords scale .... so bend into that note or slide into it or just land on that note at the time the chord changes.

This is the secret to proper melodic solo'ing, knowing what chords you are playing over and targeting notes from within that chord. If you examine the masters, like Gilmour you will notice they do it all the time.

axisus · September 2022

relic245 said:

My first thought would be to think about your attitude to learning.

starting out with “I struggle to learn theory” and then making an excuse for your age isn’t going to get you in a good frame of mind. Its also giving you ready made excuses when you come across a hurdle.

It's a fair point! I do feel that part of me is expecting to fail. As it happens I am rather interested in the sound of the Phrygian mode (as per my other thread), so maybe I will do the same as you and see where I get with it.

blobb · September 2022

Have you played aorund with alternatie tunings? That's what I do when I get bored with the same stuff every time. I get a drum groove going on my trio and stick a capo on a random position. Then go for it as you would normally - now all the notes are in different places! You can try to stretch for what you know or see what falls to hand. Might surprise you.

roberty · September 2022

The thing that broke me out of box patterns and into moving laterally along the neck was going through the 3 notes per string diatonic modes. I played them a lot and noticed there is a pattern to them

Here are diagrams of the different modes: https://appliedguitartheory.com/lessons/3-notes-per-string-major-scale-patterns/

What you'll notice as you go through them is there are only three variations of three note patterns on a string, and that these patterns always repeat in the same order. There's three in a row with two big stretches, then two in a row with fingers 1 2 4, then two more with 1 3 4, then it's back to the big stretches. It just goes on and on and it's the same for every mode

If you drill these for long enough it will become automatic, You don't have to sit there doing it for hours, that's a waste of time, but something like 10 minutes a day is good.

Once you're familiar with the individual scales you can start to join them up and move horizontally on the fretboard. Also, you can start relating these patterns to the pentatonic scale and combining the two approaches

Speaking of pentatonic, there are five positions for the pentatonic scale so you can take the same approach of memorising these and then connecting them up to move horizontally

After becoming familiar with these I started looking at arpeggios and chord tone soloing. I think that's the last piece of the puzzle I think

Image: https://appliedguitartheory.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/3-notes-per-string-major-scale-position-1-1024x332.png

fastonebaz · September 2022

Search

Backing track E major

In youtube, and stick to major keys

and force yourself to play along in major scale (obvs need to learn it first) but soon you'll memorise the patterns and be shredding in the lydian and mixolodyian modes and never look back.

octatonic · September 2022

axisus said:

Also, apologies to anyone who has already offered to help in the past, all I can say is that I'm trying again!

Please do refer to what I said in earlier threads- it was pretty clearly laid out what you have to do.

sev112 · September 2022

roberty said:

The thing that broke me out of box patterns and into moving laterally along the neck was going through the 3 notes per string diatonic modes. I played them a lot and noticed there is a pattern to them

Here are diagrams of the different modes: https://appliedguitartheory.com/lessons/3-notes-per-string-major-scale-patterns/

What you'll notice as you go through them is there are only three variations of three note patterns on a string, and that these patterns always repeat in the same order. There's three in a row with two big stretches, then two in a row with fingers 1 2 4, then two more with 1 3 4, then it's back to the big stretches. It just goes on and on and it's the same for every mode

If you drill these for long enough it will become automatic, You don't have to sit there doing it for hours, that's a waste of time, but something like 10 minutes a day is good.

Once you're familiar with the individual scales you can start to join them up and move horizontally on the fretboard. Also, you can start relating these patterns to the pentatonic scale and combining the two approaches

Speaking of pentatonic, there are five positions for the pentatonic scale so you can take the same approach of memorising these and then connecting them up to move horizontally

After becoming familiar with these I started looking at arpeggios and chord tone soloing. I think that's the last piece of the puzzle I think

To build on the 3 notes per string, There’s actually some magic in there - it isn’t just the 135, 124, 134 patterns - those patterns are ALWAYS in the same relative position and they go : (low to high)
1 3 5
1 3 5
1 3 5
1 2 4
1 2 4
1 3 4
1 3 4 and then start again 135 135 135 etc
(that’s 7 strings so it shows the same pattern can be extended from 6 to 7 to 8 or more strings, so very helpful if you have a 7 or 8 string guitar (tuned in 4ths below the low E string if that’s your thing)

There are 2 additional “rules” - the first is that when you move from the 135 to 124 you move up a fret; and the other is that you move up a fret when you reach the B string.

the second bit of magic , as I call it, is that each of the modes starts from one of those 7 patterns - you don’t have to learn anything else - all the modes are there.

So if you want to play a major scale you start with two 135s, then the 124 124 and 134 134

if you want a Minor / Aeolian you start with a 134 134 then continue 135 135 124 124

And each of the other modes start at one of the other 7; if you like Locrian start 124 124, then 134 134, 135 135
If you like Mixolydian start 135 135 135, then 124 124 134 134

relic245 · September 2022

octatonic said:

axisus said:

Also, apologies to anyone who has already offered to help in the past, all I can say is that I'm trying again!

Please do refer to what I said in earlier threads- it was pretty clearly laid out what you have to do.

I don't suppose you have a link to those earlier threads?

Lestratcaster · September 2022

Use the mixolydian mode (major scale basically with a flat 7). It brings out the major 3rd in the major chords. Also arpeggios to outline the notes in chords is good.

Lewy · September 2022

If you put your backing track on, didn’t pick up your guitar, and just tried to hum or sing a solo instead of play one, would you come up with something less boring do you think?

steamabacus · September 2022

Here's an avenue that might prove fruitful for expanding beyond the pentatonic scale into the modes.

First of all, try and get the pentatonic scale under your fingers all over the neck - commonly split into 5 'positions' - so that you can slip between positions easily and thus move up and down the neck fluidly.

If you look at the pentatonic scale, there are five notes from the major/minor diatonic scale and the same relationship between major and 'relative minor' as the full diatonic scale.

C major and A minor share the same notes (the white keys on the piano keyboard) just starting from a different note - C D E F G A B (C major) or A B C D E F G (A minor)

I guess most people default to the Minor Pentatonic Scale - eg. A Minor Pentatonic A C D E G

The relative Major Pentatonic Scale would be - C Major Pentatonic C D E G A

(So the A Minor Pentatonic Scale and the C Major Pentatonic Scale share exactly the same notes - just as the A Minor Scale and the C Major Scale share exactly the same notes)

Now, THE MODES (cue foreboding music)

There are 7 modes of the major/minor diatonic scale and they all have strange greek names -

Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Myxolidian Aeolian Locrian

For the purpose of this discussion, forget about the Locrian Mode as it's the 'weird one' and isn't too common in most music listened to by most people in the west (it has a flattened fifth which makes it the modal black sheep of the family).

Which leaves us six remaining modes - three major (ie they have a major third) and three minor (minor third)

Ionian Lydian Myxolydian are major modes

Dorian Phrygian Aeolian are minor modes

These modes are all seven note scales but the three major modes all share five notes (only two vary) and the three minor modes all share five notes (again, only two vary).

Hang on! Five notes?

Pentatonic means 'five tones' doesn't it?

That's right, the three major modes all share the notes of the Major Pentatonic Scale. The three minor modes all share the notes of the Minor Pentatonic Scale.

So, sticking with our A minor/C major white notes examples.

C Ionian is C D E F G A B

C Lydian is C D E F# G A B

C Myxolydian is C D E F G A Bb

(C Major Pentatonic in bold)

A Dorian is A B C D E F# G

A Phrygian is A Bb C D E F G

A Aeolian is A B C D E F G

(A Minor Pentatonic in bold)

So, if you know your pentatonic scales, all you need to do is fill in those three fret, tone-and-a-half gaps in the fingerings depending on the specific mode. These are the notes which define the 'sound' of a particular mode (beyond the basic major/minor tonality defined by the third).

For example, the 'sound' of A Phrygian mode is defined firstly by the root note (A), secondly by the third (C, 'minor') and finally by the flattened second (Bb).

In the same way, Dorian is a minor mode defined by the major sixth, Lydian is a major mode defined by its sharpened fourth, Myxolydian is a major mode defined by its flattened seventh. This is all relative to the diatonic C major/A minor scale. Ionian mode is the same as the major scale, Aeolian the same as the (natural) minor scale.

Of course there's still the need for hours of practice and repetition to get the fretboard shapes under your fingers but hopefully this helps some people break through the confusion. You do need know your pentatonic shapes first though.

roberty · September 2022

@sev112 yes that is what I meant. The patterns always repeat in the same way. Your explanation was clearer

tone1 · September 2022

I can only dream of nailing the blues scale and working out the key and noodling along to a backing track…..

Barney · September 2022

Maybe a good place to start is highlight the changes in say a maj blues ...1 octave arps to start ...then maybe try some altered ideas going to the 4 chord for example ....

I think as well the only way is to really connect with the instrument ...I mean iff you didn't have a guitar at hand but you started thinking of ideas in your head over a backing track ...it probably wouldn't be a blues scale it would be more musical and probably less notes ... and better phrasing ...I think a lot of what we do is muscle memory instead of really thinking of what we would like things to sound like

octatonic · September 2022

relic245 said:

octatonic said:

axisus said:

Also, apologies to anyone who has already offered to help in the past, all I can say is that I'm trying again!

Please do refer to what I said in earlier threads- it was pretty clearly laid out what you have to do.

I don't suppose you have a link to those earlier threads?

No, I don't- would be weird if I bookmarked my own posts, no?
But I've said largely the same stuff on a number of threads.

Daily practice, working with a metronome at a super slow speed.
Learn the major scale modes, arpeggios and play changes as arpeggios.

Other than that it really comes down to transcription.
Transcribe solos daily- not from tab- figure it out by ear.

Caffeine_Vampire · September 2022

Follow @Danny1969 's advice.

axisus · September 2022

octatonic said:

axisus said:

Also, apologies to anyone who has already offered to help in the past, all I can say is that I'm trying again!

Please do refer to what I said in earlier threads- it was pretty clearly laid out what you have to do.

Yes Sir! I was obviously thinking of you when I typed that, and I will indeed search back on your previous advice. Thanks for that input in days gone by, I'm trying to make more of a go of things this time around!

axisus · September 2022

Thanks to everyone who has replied with information, I will take a look at everything. Some of it feels over my head but I will dig in a bit and see where I can get.

relic245 · September 2022

Just another thought. I've also spent many years frustrated by being stuck in the same old patterns, but really making progress now.

Looking back I kind of understood what modes were and how to use them from a theoretical point of view. What I didn't have was any 'flying hours' using them.

I think I wanted to master them in an afternoon too! That created a lot of mental blocks for me that I just couldn't get my head around it.

This time as I've said I picked 1 mode. Actually 1 pattern from 1 mode and played with that for a while.

I'm about 2 months into learning this stuff and I'm not putting a huge amount of time into it but making more progress than I have done before.

Because I'm focusing on a small area I'm noticing improvement, that improvement is keeping me motivated to keep going and it seems to be getting easier as I go.

Baby steps and all that.

Tannin · September 2022

Nix the backing track. It ties you into a corner and creates expectations. Same-old-same-old expectations. So you play exactly that: same-old, same-old.

Accompany yourself. Just a single note drone is all you need. It can be as much in your head as an actual sound. Find other notes that sound nice with it. Then push the envelope. What if you throw in a flat 5? How about playing both minor thirds over it at the same time? Experiment with runs, playing for example, the major third on the way up and the minor third on the way down. Do all this with single note backing because they you are free to play anything - any scale, any tonality. Before too long you find yourself doing interesting new stuff.

Nix the backing track.

octatonic · September 2022

axisus said:

octatonic said:

axisus said:

Also, apologies to anyone who has already offered to help in the past, all I can say is that I'm trying again!

Please do refer to what I said in earlier threads- it was pretty clearly laid out what you have to do.

Yes Sir! I was obviously thinking of you when I typed that, and I will indeed search back on your previous advice. Thanks for that input in days gone by, I'm trying to make more of a go of things this time around!

I am happy to help, obvs- have a look at the fusion thread.

The advice doesn't change though- this is why I advocate for getting on it because the same concerns and issues are always there waiting for you to work on. People either do it or they don't.

Don't rush it- it does take a while to get but the great thing is when you get little wins, which spurs you on.
A positive mental attitude really helps, although I didn't have that for the first decade, I used the stick rather than the carrot.
So I didn't have as much fun as other people but I still got there.

One thing in that thread I didn't say is I would get the major scale and modes sorted well before melodic/harmonic minor modes. The best advice I can give anyone is 'don't major in minor things'. Put your attention to things that will really progress your playing.
Harmonising the major scale, focussing on playing chord progressions with arpeggios so that you can do with without thinking 'where does my finger go next' is still quite a lot of work and it will transform your playing much more than more esoteric but 'cool' sounding stuff.

octatonic · September 2022

Also... consider lessons.
It will be so much harder doing it yourself/youtube videos.
At least for a year- then you can deploy the method once you know what it is.

Lewy · September 2022

Lewy said:

If you put your backing track on, didn’t pick up your guitar, and just tried to hum or sing a solo instead of play one, would you come up with something less boring do you think?

I wasn't being facetious when I asked this, by the way, in case it came across that way. It just strikes me that before you embark on loads of theory and nuts and bolts like scales and modes, you should establish whether it might actually be the case that you need to focus more on developing your taste and your ear...essentially your connection with music. I've seen a lot of people stay lost or stuck because they don't stop to ask themselves "what sounds do I like?" and "if technique and theory were no object, what would I be playing right now?".

DavidR · September 2022

Find some DADGAD music.

guitarjack66 · September 2022

relic245 said:

My first thought would be to think about your attitude to learning.

starting out with “I struggle to learn theory” and then making an excuse for your age isn’t going to get you in a good frame of mind. Its also giving you ready made excuses when you come across a hurdle.

im only a couple of years behind you in age and I relish learning new stuff. Not just on guitar.

Get excited about the idea of learning something new and not just trying to escape boredom and you’ll find it a lot easier.

I recently started to learn modes. Chose 1 at random (Phrygian) got a backing track, did a bit of reading, watched a ton of YouTube vids and was having fun in no time.

then I moved on to Dorian and was sounding like Santana in a few minutes.

it’s not hard but you do have to be prepared to apply yourself.

good luck.

I too,am only a few years behind you in age and I enjoy the theory side too. My reasoning is simple,if I know more theory then I have more scope when playing the guitar and can mix things up to stay away from 'holes' where I get bored. You sound way more experienced than me but as has been said,change your view and doors will open. I mean,as a beginner,simply learning barre chords and their theory opens up way more doors instantly let alone triads,double stops,scales and so on.

Vibetronic · September 2022

I’d be happy to hook up and go through things with you but (ie most of what people have already said, hence I haven’t elaborated further on that side of things!) I seem to recall you’re miles away. I’m in Stroud if that’s any use.

digitalkettle · September 2022

Lewy said:

Lewy said:

If you put your backing track on, didn’t pick up your guitar, and just tried to hum or sing a solo instead of play one, would you come up with something less boring do you think?

I wasn't being facetious when I asked this, by the way, in case it came across that way. It just strikes me that before you embark on loads of theory and nuts and bolts like scales and modes, you should establish whether it might actually be the case that you need to focus more on developing your taste and your ear...essentially your connection with music. I've seen a lot of people stay lost or stuck because they don't stop to ask themselves "what sounds do I like?" and "if technique and theory were no object, what would I be playing right now?".

I think it's a good point...keeps auto-pilot at bay too!

guitars4you · September 2022

The issue I have with backing tracks is that in the main, you tend to play licks over the 12 bar cycle which might loop over that progression 10-20 times - Very rarely would greats like SRV play a solo over more than 2 cycles off the 12 bar progression - If he goes longer than 2 cycles it will be when he and the band hit the groove and he plays more of a chord groove/progression - So easy to get devoid of ideas after 2/3 or 4 loops of the 12 bar cycle - Great to be able to loop say the last 4 bars, time after time to work on turnarounds - So play a solo for 12 x 2 bars then go back to a riff, chord work, chord vamps etc for 2/3/4 cycles, then go back to a fresh solo

I sometimes get bored of the pentatonic format, but then find new players, like Kirk Fletcher, and realise I'm no where near ready to leave it yet - Saying that I only use the pentatonic as a basic sketch pad, as I add 9th maj 3rd, flat 5th, 6th etc as required to work with the pentatonic notes

The issue I have is trying to play a melodic solo - Maybe the best way of describing this is the Brick in the wall solo - Most of us can sing it front to back - Jam over this chord sequence - But now pretend you are Dave Gilmour and recording this for the first time - Don't copy the original - But try and play a melodic solo that will have the same character ie instantly memorable - And I can't even come close - I can doodle time after time - But can't play/write such a melodic solo - Ditto All Right now etc etc

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Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

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