Giant Steps at 330 bpm

Jimbro66 · July 2021

Well put @viz and probably the most balanced view expressed so far.

As I've already said, in terms of technique Ben Eunson's playing is mind-blowing. I just personally don't feel that 'sheets of sound' translates very well from horn to guitar. The fluidity of horns is missing. That's just how I hear it but I totally accept that others hear it differently.

lysander · July 2021

That is sadly true.

Though I personally prefer the earlier bebop playing of Charlie Parker, Dizzy and Sonny Stitt than Coltrane, either way I’ve never heard anyone get close on the guitar - it has to be concluded that it’s just not really possible.
The best Charlier Parker guitar transcription I’ve ever heard is this one:
https://youtu.be/w43jCY0tmfk

But even then it probably doesn’t sound as good without the sax in the background

viz · July 2021

Jimbro66 said:

Well put @viz and probably the most balanced view expressed so far.

As I've already said, in terms of technique Ben Eunson's playing is mind-blowing. I just personally don't feel that 'sheets of sound' translates very well from horn to guitar. The fluidity of horns is missing. That's just how I hear it but I totally accept that others hear it differently.

lysander said:

That is sadly true.
Though I personally prefer the earlier bebop playing of Charlie Parker, Dizzy and Sonny Stitt than Coltrane, either way I’ve never heard anyone get close on the guitar - it has to be concluded that it’s just not really possible.
The best Charlier Parker guitar transcription I’ve ever heard is this one:
https://youtu.be/w43jCY0tmfk

But even then it probably doesn’t sound as good without the sax in the background

Very true, Brother Jim! Wizzed.

And yes, I think that’s what these guitarists are trying to - to emulate the fludity and spontaneity of the great saxophone or trumpet jazzers - with some degree of success but it’s always going to be a different instrument so they’ll never be able to capture it exactly, anyway, good banter.

DefaultM · July 2021

My wife did not like this one.

Rocker · July 2021

Jimbro66 said:

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

Me too. Well said @Jimbro66.

GuyBoden · July 2021

I think perhaps it's easier if you have studied the Slonimsky pattern and analysed how Giant Steps, Count Down was conceived by Coltrane to appreciate the playing. In this thread, I can hear the difference between a player constrained, imprisoned by the structure and players who can improvise with freedom unbound by structure, ie Allan Holdsworth.

A very high level of playing by Ben Eunson, beyond any player I've heard posting on this forum, but this thread like many before, has turned into the usual nonsense.

fretmeister · July 2021

GuyBoden said:

I think perhaps it's easier if you have studied the Slonimsky pattern and analysed how Giant Steps, Count Down was conceived by Coltrane to appreciate the playing. In this thread, I can hear the difference between a player constrained, imprisoned by the structure and players who can improvise with freedom unbound by structure, ie Allan Holdsworth.

A very high level of playing by Ben Eunson, beyond any player I've heard posting on this forum, but this thread like many before, has turned into the usual nonsense.

Impressive playing does not mean fun to listen to.

It's like watching a maths genius work through an amazing set of numbers with flawless accuracy and high speed.
Very impressive, highly respectable, and still boring beyond words.

GuyBoden · July 2021

I think perhaps it's easier if you have studied the Slonimsky pattern and analysed how Giant Steps, Count Down was conceived by Coltrane to appreciate the playing. In this thread, I can hear the difference between a player constrained, imprisoned by the structure and players who can improvise with freedom unbound by structure, ie Allan Holdsworth.

fretmeister · July 2021

GuyBoden said:

I think perhaps it's easier if you have studied the Slonimsky pattern and analysed how Giant Steps, Count Down was conceived by Coltrane to appreciate the playing. In this thread, I can hear the difference between a player constrained, imprisoned by the structure and players who can improvise with freedom unbound by structure, ie Allan Holdsworth.

You said that already.fretmeister said:

GuyBoden said:

I think perhaps it's easier if you have studied the Slonimsky pattern and analysed how Giant Steps, Count Down was conceived by Coltrane to appreciate the playing. In this thread, I can hear the difference between a player constrained, imprisoned by the structure and players who can improvise with freedom unbound by structure, ie Allan Holdsworth.

A very high level of playing by Ben Eunson, beyond any player I've heard posting on this forum, but this thread like many before, has turned into the usual nonsense.

Did you mean to paste it again?

Jimbro66 · July 2021

When I posted an intentionally light-hearted comment about the musical content of Ben Eunson's playing early in this thread the OP quite rightly pointed out that he'd posted the thread in the Theory category, not Music.

Inevitably the category was substantially ignored and the musical content analysed and seen from at least two very conflicting, and equally valid, perspectives with the extremes ridiculing (and patronising) each other unnecessarily. Whether a constant flow of notes at 330bpm is musical or not is subjective. The technical ability is unquestionable and that's presumably what the OP wanted to highlight.

fretmeister · July 2021

There you go.

That's 70 better.

GuyBoden · July 2021

fretmeister said:

No trades at all I'm afraid. I'm not playing guitar anymore.

So, you don't even play guitar.

jpfamps · July 2021

fretmeister said:

There you go.

That's 70 better.

I have to admit I do find that more euphonious. Mind you working in a guitar shop has made me realise how grating the electric guitar can sound.

fretmeister · July 2021

GuyBoden said:

fretmeister said:

No trades at all I'm afraid. I'm not playing guitar anymore.

So, you don't even play guitar.

You actually went trawling for that? That is pathetic.

That comment on a sales post was to cut the trade offers.... in 2015.

I do play guitar. My main instrument is bass. I also play some sax and I sing. I currently play in a 25 piece jazz big band.
None of which has anything to do with this thread or why you are cutting and pasting your own comments.

fretmeister · July 2021

jpfamps said:

fretmeister said:

There you go.

That's 70 better.

I have to admit I do find that more euphonious. Mind you working in a guitar shop has made me realise how grating the electric guitar can sound.

I enjoyed that version far more too. You are right - it actually sounded like music.

Massive props to the drummer as well though.

maw4neu · July 2021

Im sure the guy is beyond gifted but, honestly, for me that made no sense at all . . . It was just a flurry of unrelated notes with literally no direction . . . . to me, that was awful . . . Sorry chaps ! ! . . . I just dont do Jazz . . . if thats what that was ???

jpfamps · July 2021

fretmeister said:

jpfamps said:

fretmeister said:

There you go.

That's 70 better.

I have to admit I do find that more euphonious. Mind you working in a guitar shop has made me realise how grating the electric guitar can sound.

I enjoyed that version far more too. You are right - it actually sounded like music.

Massive props to the drummer as well though.

Yes, the drumming is great.

I don't think you can sound good without a great drummer, and swinging at that tempo is hard.

Barney · July 2021

Reading the comments it just shows technique and ability don't make things appealing ...I think he is technically outstanding and I have heard other things he does that I prefer ...but it just shows being technically brilliant is not the be all and end all ...no disrespect to Ben who I think is a great player ..

DLM · July 2021

@lysander Thanks for that Parker on guitar vid, that was cool.

lysander · July 2021

DLM said:

@lysander Thanks for that Parker on guitar vid, that was cool.

You’re welcome, I love that video

That guy is a monster, these lines are incredibly hard to play so fluidly on the guitar.

Roland · July 2021

[Mod hat on] This thread has been flagged for ad hominems. I’ve chosen not to remove any of them because the thread is a prime example of people talking across each other without understanding each other’s point of view. It illustrates that there are many ways to understand and enjoy music.

[Hat off] As I understand it Coltrane wrote Giant Steps to be challenging for the player, and for the listener. The patterns and the resolutions are there, but they are fast and relentless. Now I like a lot of jazz, but bebop never grabbed me emotionally, so I’ve never wanted to invest the time in learning Giant Steps. If I did then I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t approach it the way that Ben Eunson has. Meredith d’Ambrosio, with Kevin Eubanks on guitar, is more my style.

https://youtu.be/sUIZontufvs

viz · July 2021

I’m just thinking again how incredibly all these giant steps players play. I can’t conceive how much time they’ve devoted to their playing. It’s real dedication! Check this chap for example:

https://youtu.be/Gna3pD2lvDg

GuyBoden · July 2021

This is the Theory section of the forum, so if members wish to discuss the theory behind Coltrane's "Giant Steps", the significance of how he was influenced by Slonimsky patterns and the resulting so called "Coltrane changes", I would be more than willing to contribute. It's a pity this thread has been derailed, because "Giant Steps" was a hugely significant stage in the development of how modern Jazz moved away from Bebop.

ftumch · July 2021

carlos said:

ftumch said:

carlos said:

I want a full transcription on my desk by Monday morning, class!
And yes, Ben Eunson has joined the Ibanez AZ army.

We've had a guy down the jam night once with the same approach to lead solo as this, he'd only been playing a week. I realise now he must have been a genius!

Takes guts to admit someone with a week of practice can outplay you thoroughly. Hope his career takes off.

Never said that did I?
If you like this you should check out the guy on storage hunters. He will blow your tiny mind!

Jimbro66 · July 2021

jdgm said:

May I direct forum ears to Roland Prince (gone now, alas) whose version has everything it should have. Prince was from Antigua, as good on piano as he was on guitar, and played with Elvin Jones.

Of the versions of Giant Steps posted in this thread this is the one I find most interesting and most pleasurable. I think having the phrasing and textures of three quite different lead instruments backed by a solid rhythm section is why I find it so much more listenable than Ben Eunson's version. Perhaps it is unfair though to compare the two.

west · July 2021

Just found this version of coltranes countdown ... flippin eck ! on bass no less ... !

jdgm · August 2021

GuyBoden said:

.....It's a pity this thread has been derailed, because "Giant Steps" was a hugely significant stage in the development of how modern Jazz moved away from Bebop.

Wis'd.

It is also said that the chord sequence of "Giant Steps" is partially inspired by the middle 8 of "Have You Met Miss Jones".

Rocker · August 2021

If you want to play 'fast', learn Flight of the Bumble bee. It was and possibly still is, the test used by the Guinness Book of Records as the standard speed test for musicians

DefaultM · September 2021

west said:

Just found this version of coltranes countdown ... flippin eck ! on bass no less ... !

Christ!

west · September 2021

on a bike !

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Giant Steps at 330 bpm

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