Giant Steps at 330 bpm

carlos · April 2021

I want a full transcription on my desk by Monday morning, class!
And yes, Ben Eunson has joined the Ibanez AZ army.

viz · April 2021

Omg

Brad · April 2021

I discovered Eunson about a year ago, he’s outrageous!

rsvmark · April 2021

viz said:

Omg

Nothing that the great @viz couldnt handle! In fact I reckon you would improv a harmony in double stops for fun!

failed_astronaut · April 2021

Jesus wept. I did as well if we're being honest!

Jimbro66 · April 2021

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

tanihhiavlt · April 2021

not my Giant Steps

Wazmeister · April 2021

Jimbro66 said:

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

100% agree.

An utter waste of noise.

stratman3142 · April 2021

carlos said:

And yes, Ben Eunson has joined the Ibanez AZ army.

Great player I'd never heard of. Thanks for posting.

Love my new AZ2402, but I'd already got my eye on an AZ2204 as well.

carlos · April 2021

Jimbro66 said:

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

It's bebop, so it sounds exactly like it's supposed to. It's just that a relentless barrage of notes ("sheets of sounds" is the actual term for it) is usually played on a horn. But there's a reason I put it on theory.

carlos · April 2021

stratman3142 said:

carlos said:

And yes, Ben Eunson has joined the Ibanez AZ army.

Great player I'd never heard of. Thanks for posting.

Love my new AZ2402, but I'd already got my eye on an AZ2204 as well.

This is just an exercise, but Ben has released a rock album plus all the session work he does. In the rock album he sounds a bit like... Jeff Beck?!

Brad · April 2021

I was actually going to suggest Ace of Hearts myself and I also hear a fair bit Jeff Beck (with a healthy dose of Holdsworth).

carlos · April 2021

Brad said:

I was actually going to suggest Ace of Hearts myself and I also hear a fair bit Jeff Beck (with a healthy dose of Holdsworth).

There's a cover of "Cause We've Ended as Lovers" on it, which I think Jeff Beck did the most popular guitar version.

Jimbro66 · April 2021

carlos said:

Jimbro66 said:

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

It's bebop, so it sounds exactly like it's supposed to. It's just that a relentless barrage of notes ("sheets of sounds" is the actual term for it) is usually played on a horn. But there's a reason I put it on theory.

It was bebop guitar players like Jimmy Rainey that first inspired me in my teens but maybe that's 'old fashioned' bebop? The 'sheets of sounds' often associated with sax players have always left me asking "why?" but that's subjective of course.

As you said, it is posted in Theory not Music. In terms of technique it is mind-blowing.

FWIW I enjoyed the second posted video so thanks for that. Always good to hear new players in performance.

carlos · April 2021

stratman3142 said:

carlos said:

And yes, Ben Eunson has joined the Ibanez AZ army.

Great player I'd never heard of. Thanks for posting.

Love my new AZ2402, but I'd already got my eye on an AZ2204 as well.

They look and sound great. I wish my Vigier Shawn Lane had the same switching options.

danishbacon · April 2021

This is why some people ‘hate jazz’. Personally, it feels devoid of any ‘feel’ or swing. I appreciate there is a level of skill and talent required to deliver exactitude at these speeds but speed alone does not bepop make. I don’t much care for super high speed stuff but here’s an example of how phrasing manages to put feel into something so fast.

https://youtu.be/gxJIGixKmxw

tanihhiavlt · April 2021

Swing is really hard to do above a certain level of bpm, and 330bpm, for that clever talented guitarist, is too high. To my ears there's no pocket.

I'd be disappointed if the guy in the video sees this as music and not a crazy exercise. It is crazy and impressive.

Anyone interested in the construction of Giant Steps - Bruce Gregario's video is a great start

carlos · April 2021

tanihhiavlt said:

Swing is really hard to do above a certain level of bpm, and 330bpm, for that clever talented guitarist, is too high. To my ears there's no pocket.

I'd be disappointed if the guy in the video sees this as music and not a crazy exercise. It is crazy and impressive.

Like this?

tanihhiavlt · April 2021

Interesting question... not for me, maybe it's the lack of other musicians to create tension, maybe it's the lack of dynamics (to my untrained ear)...

For pocket I'd say:

and although people are divided about him, this guy did write the book on sheets

and swings

but it's all different perspectives and this is just to my ear ... there's more meat on it (for me)

carlos · April 2021

Nice, I study from Zucker's book all the time. One day I might even use what I learned...

Brad · April 2021

Hmmm I think it's a little unfair to bring Sco into it

99% of guitarists can't touch him for pocket (amongst other things) and it's a totally different context...

That being said, I don't think it's anything more than a blast on social media. Silly tempo and a stiff backing track don't help don't help his style imo. He's got a cool approach and interesting lines nonetheless.

Still, out of anyone Joey Alexander's performance still truly floors me to this day. And that's in spite of him being 11 years old at the time.

DaveB666 · April 2021

This is my fave version of Lovers (other than Jeff Beck) - the more I hear of Lettieri the more I like.

carlos · April 2021

This thread is classic tFB:
- "plays too fast with no feel"
- "that's good but I know this other guy who can play it better"
- "that's just notes one after the other"
- "here's a different guitarist playing a completely different tune"

danishbacon · April 2021

Honest question @carlos, what would have been a more suitable set of responses?

The video was posted without much context on an open forum so I think it’s to be expected that others will chime in with their own reaction to it.

From a theory standpoint it all works. From a technique standpoint it also works. To my ears it’s devoid of the musicality and expression I look for when I listen to jazz.

Good/bad is subjective, but I think that by going down the route of ‘it’s bebop, sounds exactly like bebop’ seems to have elicited some responses from those who might disagree with that particular statement. What is Bepop about, in its essence? There are different shades of it for sure.

At the end of the day, the beauty of jazz is that you can take any piece of music and make it your own, whatever way you like. It’s free isn’t it. That’s certainly what attracted me to the genre.

The player in the OP has buckets of technical talent. Really blows it out of the water, and I 100% appreciate the appeal of technique for technique’s sake. Jazz is about pushing yourself in whatever direction you wish to go. As Jim Hall once said, playing IS the reward. Whatever rewards you I suppose

carlos · April 2021

@danishbacon ;
Oh, I was expecting this response, but I did find it funny that it went the same route as the Chappers knife thread and the Yngwie mutton chops thread.

CoffeeAndTV · April 2021

The thing with Giant Steps, 26-2, Countdown, and the other tunes which incorporate three or four tonic systems is they are just seen as a flex.

Great tunes to learn and play, but it gets to certain point where it’s just seen as a vehicle to show how hip your lines are and how fast you can play over it.

I’ve always thought the tunes on Coltrane’s Sound is a much better record at showing his approach to harmony much more than the album Giant Steps.

Jimbro66 · April 2021

Surely you don't really believe that you can control a thread so that the responses are solely what you personally think they aught to be?

Not everyone shares your opinion, I stress 'opinion', no matter how qualified you consider it to be.

viz · April 2021

rsvmark said:

viz said:

Omg

Nothing that the great @viz couldnt handle! In fact I reckon you would improv a harmony in double stops for fun!

Haha you must be joking, no way! I wish!

guitarmangler · April 2021

Blimey. That guy is amazing. I have trouble thinking that fast !

AK99 · April 2021

Jimbro66 said:

I can certainly appreciate the incredible dexterity and technical ability of players like this but the relentless barrage of notes sounds to me more akin to an endlessly nagging woman than anything of musical appeal. Sorry.

Yes. Brings firmly to mind Joey (The Lips) Fagan of The Committments, and his take on jazz..

GuyBoden · April 2021

I think this Slonimsky pattern is a great tune, it's not just a chord sequence to blow over, play the tune, man.

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Giant Steps at 330 bpm

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