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UNPLANNED DOWNTIME: 12th Oct 23:45

Sell Tesla?

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  • Rob1742Rob1742 Frets: 839
    I must admit I’m not quite as relaxed as others. Only been in the market for three years, so the falls come with a bit of a thud.
    I think it’s just a case of experience and time and I’ll be as relaxed as others.
    Luckily I am still in a positive, but the actual loss from the high is a massive figure that takes some getting around my head. 
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  • Rob1742 said:
    I must admit I’m not quite as relaxed as others. Only been in the market for three years, so the falls come with a bit of a thud.
    I think it’s just a case of experience and time and I’ll be as relaxed as others.
    Luckily I am still in a positive, but the actual loss from the high is a massive figure that takes some getting around my head. 
    You'll be fine, take the long view, hang in there and don't sell anything while the prices are down.


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  • Rob1742Rob1742 Frets: 839
    Rob1742 said:
    I must admit I’m not quite as relaxed as others. Only been in the market for three years, so the falls come with a bit of a thud.
    I think it’s just a case of experience and time and I’ll be as relaxed as others.
    Luckily I am still in a positive, but the actual loss from the high is a massive figure that takes some getting around my head. 
    You'll be fine, take the long view, hang in there and don't sell anything while the prices are down.
    I wont sell, but it’s quite a shock to the system. I need to stop looking. 
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  • CavemanGroggCavemanGrogg Frets: 2357
    edited February 2022
    Rob1742 said:
    I must admit I’m not quite as relaxed as others. Only been in the market for three years, so the falls come with a bit of a thud.
    I think it’s just a case of experience and time and I’ll be as relaxed as others.
    Luckily I am still in a positive, but the actual loss from the high is a massive figure that takes some getting around my head. 

    I'm not worried in the slightest, I've even had a volitility waring about one of my investments, overall, yes my portfolio has taken a hit, 3.16% hit to be precise, but I'm looking at this as an opportunity to invest more, and plan on taking advantage of the price drops.  I may have have a different investment stratergy and goal from you, not to mention tolerance and exposure to risk.

    Rob1742 said:
    Rob1742 said:
    I must admit I’m not quite as relaxed as others. Only been in the market for three years, so the falls come with a bit of a thud.
    I think it’s just a case of experience and time and I’ll be as relaxed as others.
    Luckily I am still in a positive, but the actual loss from the high is a massive figure that takes some getting around my head. 
    You'll be fine, take the long view, hang in there and don't sell anything while the prices are down.
    I wont sell, but it’s quite a shock to the system. I need to stop looking. 

    I still pucker up every time my portfolio losses as little as a penny, I'm practically addicted to checking my brokers, financial management and aanalysis software.  It's a habbit I haven't been able to break since I bought my first share, but then I have no interest in day trading, I buy almost exclusively with the intention of holding long term, I have bought and turned around and sold relatively quickly, and with the intention to do so, but for me that has always been the exception, and it's something I only do when I think I'm on to an opportunity too good to pass on, not to mention that I manage my own investments, I don't use a fund manager, nor do I invest in any.  So for me constantly checking on my portfolio, financial management software, and commodity prices has become second nature to me, a summary of all that information is the first thing I see whenever I unlock any of my phones or tablets.

    Not to mention gold has start to drop, from as much as near enough to £1490.00 an oz, to £1467.64 to now currently £1428.24 - as I type this, that's a sign of expected stability
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    Not sure why people think that short-term investments are such a bad idea
    with day trading, you can keep your money in zero risk cash, and only invest when something is clearly underpriced

    like my mate did yesterday, bought 5000 POLY shares at 550p
    sold today for 800p

    that's £12.5k profit, in one day
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  • CavemanGroggCavemanGrogg Frets: 2357
    edited February 2022
    Not sure why people think that short-term investments are such a bad idea
    with day trading, you can keep your money in zero risk cash, and only invest when something is clearly underpriced

    like my mate did yesterday, bought 5000 POLY shares at 550p
    sold today for 800p

    that's £12.5k profit, in one day

    I have nothing against either day trading, or short term investing, I've done it myself on more than one occassion,  for example Barclays made me good money bought in at under 80p a share sold them shortly after for 188.??p a share - I'd have to go through my trading history to get the exact prices but these are close enough, more than doubling my money.  It's just not my investment stratergy,  I invest for dividends.  I want a share of the profits from the companies I invest in make, the day to day value of their stock is not my main concern, rather their dividends payout, how stable that dividend payment is, and the history of the company's dividend payouts, that sort of information.   So using Tesla as an example, I don't own a single share in the company, yet alone a fraction of one, simply because they don't pay dividends, so instead of buying Tesla stocks at US$809.93 - the current share price as I type this, and relying on the share price moving up and selling my shares to turn a profit, I buy shares in company ''X'' - a real company that I'm not going to name so nobody can say I'm giving financial or investment advice, at US$23.91 per share, and be able to buy 33 shares for every 1 share of Tesla stock, that has a dividend yield of 8.95% and pays out dividends monthly, with larger dividend payouts at the end of every financial quarter and the financial year.  My main concerns when investing is tax effeciency - not tax avoidence but minimising my exposure to it, dividend yield, and the stability of the dividends.

    Rob1742 said:
    I must admit I’m not quite as relaxed as others. Only been in the market for three years, so the falls come with a bit of a thud.
    I think it’s just a case of experience and time and I’ll be as relaxed as others.
    Luckily I am still in a positive, but the actual loss from the high is a massive figure that takes some getting around my head. 

    I don't know how closely you follow your investments, but from being 3.16% down yesterday, as I type this, my portfolio is now only down by 0.30%, that's a recovery of over 2% in roughly 24 hours.
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    edited February 2022
    Not sure why people think that short-term investments are such a bad idea
    with day trading, you can keep your money in zero risk cash, and only invest when something is clearly underpriced

    like my mate did yesterday, bought 5000 POLY shares at 550p
    sold today for 800p

    that's £12.5k profit, in one day
    It's always “my mate” that made the money isn't it? And we never hear about the trades that didn't work out or what trades you did 

    Day trading is a bad idea for the majority of people because statistically, more people lose money than make money day trading, trying to time the market. We always hear about the teenager who made a million in 6 months trading crypto but we don't hear about the people who slowly lose money over a few years through fees and bad trades.

    Many millions of people, who have a career, profession or full time job and family that they want to focus on, have no interest in becoming a Wall Street wannabe. They want to take their earnings and invest in a simple way to build up a sum of money they can use in retirement while they get on with their lives.

    Buying and holding a low cost index fund or funds, invested in a selection of assets that match your risk appetite and regions that interest you, for the long term, through the ups and downs of the stock market, is a perfectly sensible and proven solution that requires little more than rudimentary knowledge and no effort whatsoever once set up. My investments increased 27.7% (£67K investment growth net of additional contributions) last year by simply doing just that. No trading, no transactions, nothing.

    What will the returns be this year? I have no idea, but I do know that over the next 20 years I will do OK. Trying to time the market is incredibly difficult.

    On Feb 24 you posted: “I hope you guys are all watching your investments today, time to pay attention” as the Russian invasion of Ukraine commenced and a wave of fear and shock swept around the world.

    The S&P500 increased by 1.5% on 24th and 2.24% on 25th. So what exactly was I supposed to be watching and paying attention to?


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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    Not sure why people think that short-term investments are such a bad idea
    with day trading, you can keep your money in zero risk cash, and only invest when something is clearly underpriced

    like my mate did yesterday, bought 5000 POLY shares at 550p
    sold today for 800p

    that's £12.5k profit, in one day
    It's always “my mate” that made the money isn't it? And we never hear about the trades that didn't work out or what trades you did 

    Day trading is a bad idea for the majority of people because statistically, more people lose money than make money day trading, trying to time the market. We always hear about the teenager who made a million in 6 months trading crypto but we don't hear about the people who slowly lose money over a few years through fees and bad trades.

    Many millions of people, who have a career, profession or full time job and family that they want to focus on, have no interest in becoming a Wall Street wannabe. They want to take their earnings and invest in a simple way to build up a sum of money they can use in retirement while they get on with their lives.

    Buying and holding a low cost index fund or funds, invested in a selection of assets that match your risk appetite and regions that interest you, for the long term, through the ups and downs of the stock market, is a perfectly sensible and proven solution that requires little more than rudimentary knowledge and no effort whatsoever once set up. My investments increased 27.7% (£67K investment growth net of additional contributions) last year by simply doing just that. No trading, no transactions, nothing.

    What will the returns be this year? I have no idea, but I do know that over the next 20 years I will do OK. Trying to time the market is incredibly difficult.

    On Feb 24 you posted: “I hope you guys are all watching your investments today, time to pay attention” as the Russian invasion of Ukraine commenced and a wave of fear and shock swept around the world.

    The S&P500 increased by 1.5% on 24th and 2.24% on 25th. So what exactly was I supposed to be watching and paying attention to?
    my mate shut down his other businesses about 15 years ago, and just does trading now
    he runs on the basis that 2 successful trades to one unsuccessful is an acceptable ratio
    I think he makes over £100k a year typically, last year was more like £300k-£400k
    I made a lot last year too, I've not been trading much this year, too busy with work
    My mate's predictions are more frequently correct, on Thursday morning he said 
    S+P will "bounce into 4350 area on friday"
    He thinks it will drop to 3660 in April or May, we'll see if he's right

    Why did I post?
    Even relatively passive investors should be aware of how world events affect their life savings

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  • Why did I post?
    Even relatively passive investors should be aware of how world events affect their life savings

    Well it's comforting to know you are watching out for us  =)


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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    edited February 2022

    My mate's predictions are more frequently correct, on Thursday morning he said 
    S+P will "bounce into 4350 area on friday"
    He thinks it will drop to 3660 in April or May, we'll see if he's right

    I'll pop a calendar reminder in to remind me to shrug with indifference regardless or whether "your mate" is right or wrong. 


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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    edited March 2022
    If anyone fears that the current investing climate of high inflation and Russian invasion of Ukraine means the end of the stock market and feels compelled to sell stocks or stock funds to cash as the world appears to be caving in, have a look at the New York Times front page from March 10th 1942:



    On this day, as Japan rampaged across the Pacific with county after country collapsing to surrender, and inflation fears rock the US as they struggle to get topside of a war with a country 6,000 miles across the Pacific, and Europe is occupied by the Nazis, 2 years before D-Day...

    $10,000 invested in the S&P500 on that day would turn into $51,000,000 in 2018. All you had to do is...nothing.


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  • MajorscaleMajorscale Frets: 1513
    edited March 2022
    Not sure I’ve got 76 years to wait though!
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    edited March 2022
    Not sure I’ve got 76 years to wait though!
    ...and you don't need $51M, you get the point, stay invested in a broad cross section of companies through thick and thin and don't sell when the prices are notably down from recent highs. 

    Some of us have longer than we realise, investing doesn’t stop when you retire. You have the accumulation years while working, hopefully a 30 year retirement where your money needs to work, and then your legacy picked up by your beneficiaries, who I will be recommending keep invested in exactly the same way as it is now. 


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  • ArchtopDaveArchtopDave Frets: 1230
    As Warren Buffett commented years ago... Volatility is actually your friend; it allows to to buy shares in good companies more cheaply than would otherwise be possible. I have to say I've been watching and waiting to see when the market looks like it might be stabilising, as I want to increase some of my holdings. 
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    As Warren Buffett commented years ago... Volatility is actually your friend; it allows to to buy shares in good companies more cheaply than would otherwise be possible. I have to say I've been watching and waiting to see when the market looks like it might be stabilising, as I want to increase some of my holdings. 
    As is often quoted “if you want the same results, keep doing the same thing”


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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    As Warren Buffett commented years ago... Volatility is actually your friend; it allows to to buy shares in good companies more cheaply than would otherwise be possible. I have to say I've been watching and waiting to see when the market looks like it might be stabilising, as I want to increase some of my holdings. 
    As is often quoted “if you want the same results, keep doing the same thing”

    not sure what you mean, Buffett is a value investor, most funds that most people have been keen on recently are based on growth stocks and "momentum stocks"

    He looks for specific companies that are undervalued, which is what me and my mate do.
    Often the bargains are to be had months before or months after one on the index dips

    Buying index-trackers and typical managed funds during dips in the indices is not very similar to Buffett's approach
    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/01/071801.asp

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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    edited March 2022
    An interesting narrative here:

    The view in late 2020:
    https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/12/30/move-over-warren-buffett-theres-a-new-must-follow/

    whereas all the news now says the tables are turned:



    https://www.thestreet.com/memestocks/reddit-trends/cathie-wood-vs-warren-buffett-who-will-win-in-2022

    So the benefit with value investing is that you have a logical reason to expect your investments to weather economic storms, whereas when pursuing growth stocks, your life savings are exposed to much more short to medium term risk. If retirement is 25 years away, this is less important.
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  • CavemanGroggCavemanGrogg Frets: 2357
    An interesting narrative here:

    The view in late 2020:
    https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/12/30/move-over-warren-buffett-theres-a-new-must-follow/

    whereas all the news now says the tables are turned:



    https://www.thestreet.com/memestocks/reddit-trends/cathie-wood-vs-warren-buffett-who-will-win-in-2022

    So the benefit with value investing is that you have a logical reason to expect your investments to weather economic storms, whereas when pursuing growth stocks, your life savings are exposed to much more short to medium term risk. If retirement is 25 years away, this is less important.

    And believe it or not but some ''financial advisers'' today in the press where suggesting that now is a good time to get out of the FTSE, LSE, NYE, and NASDAQ and invest in AIM - Alternative Investment Market, instead.  I was shocked with that suggestion.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    Get your 12 foot ladder out for this
    Why I’ll never buy an active investment fund again | Financial Times (ft.com)

    Many people know about this stuff already I think

    But take a closer look and active managers look less prescient. Passive funds tracking the respective US and European indices gained more after fees — 29.3 per cent and 16.3 per cent, respectively. After fees, 82 per cent of large-cap mutual funds in the US and 86 per cent of those in Europe underperformed their benchmarks in the decade to 2020, according to S&P Dow Jones.

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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    edited March 2022
    Get your 12 foot ladder out for this
    Why I’ll never buy an active investment fund again | Financial Times (ft.com)

    Many people know about this stuff already I think

    But take a closer look and active managers look less prescient. Passive funds tracking the respective US and European indices gained more after fees — 29.3 per cent and 16.3 per cent, respectively. After fees, 82 per cent of large-cap mutual funds in the US and 86 per cent of those in Europe underperformed their benchmarks in the decade to 2020, according to S&P Dow Jones.

    This quote confirms what is widely recognised. Low cost index funds beat higher fee managed mutual funds over the longer term.

    I read this earlier:

    “Nearly 90% of stocks in the S&P 500 traded above their 10-day moving averages on Friday. Since 1982, the broad index has been higher over the next year in 35 out of the 36 times when more than 90% of its stocks trade above their 10-day moving averages, according to Ned Davis Research. The firm’s version of the Zweig Thrust Indicator, which occurs when the barometer rises from below 40% to above 61.5% in a 10-day period, hit that level on Friday for common stocks only.”

    The bulk of my money is in a low cost fund with a total 0.16% annual fee (the lowest Fees available through my pension provider) that tracks the FTSE USA index, a bit broader than the S&P500 by adding an extra 100 or so mid-cap US companies. Performance is broadly aligned with the S&P500.

    I'm buying more units each month this year then looking at buying some Bonds (UK Gilts) and accumulating some cash as I should have enough equity units purchased by the end of this year for my retirement growth needs.

    meanwhile how is Tesla doing? It's 23% down YTD but 37% up over last 12 months. Berlin gigafactory comes online this year.



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  • ArchtopDaveArchtopDave Frets: 1230
    edited March 2022
    I find the above interesting. I'm on a somewhat different tack. I have got some cash reserves for largely non investment emergency needs if needed, but I accept that this is actually a loss maker when you take inflation into account, as saving interest rates are way below the inflation rate.

    On the investment side, I'm selling some of my bond funds on the basis that recently they've held up better than global share prices, and I see this as an opportunity to increase the holdings of the funds (ones invested in shares) that have given me consistent long term performance. Additionally once we get into the 2022/2023 financial year in a couple of weeks, I'll be putting next year's allowance into my ISA, and may be buy a couple of new funds. Clearly, a careful eye needs to be kept on the performance of markets across the globe, and any decision making modified as circumstances evolve.
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  • CavemanGroggCavemanGrogg Frets: 2357
    I find the above interesting. I'm on a somewhat different tack. I have got some cash reserves for largely non investment emergency needs if needed, but I accept that this is actually a loss maker when you take inflation into account, as saving interest rates are way below the inflation rate.

    On the investment side, I'm selling some of my bond funds on the basis that recently they've held up better than global share prices, and I see this as an opportunity to increase the holdings of the funds (ones invested in shares) that have given me consistent long term performance. Additionally once we get into the 2022/2023 financial year in a couple of weeks, I'll be putting next year's allowance into my ISA, and may be buy a couple of new funds. Clearly, a careful eye needs to be kept on the performance of markets across the globe, and any decision making modified as circumstances evolve.

    Freetrade plus, pays 3% interest on cash balances up to £4k, that's about a tenner a month you get for keeping ready to access cash in your account, granted that's what the plus membership costs, but seeing how it's a trading platform, earning a tenner a month from dividends is not a hard nor expensive achievement to reach,  not to mention all the additional benefits you get from a Freetrade plus account
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    edited March 2022
    I find the above interesting. I'm on a somewhat different tack. I have got some cash reserves for largely non investment emergency needs if needed, but I accept that this is actually a loss maker when you take inflation into account, as saving interest rates are way below the inflation rate.

    On the investment side, I'm selling some of my bond funds on the basis that recently they've held up better than global share prices, and I see this as an opportunity to increase the holdings of the funds (ones invested in shares) that have given me consistent long term performance. Additionally once we get into the 2022/2023 financial year in a couple of weeks, I'll be putting next year's allowance into my ISA, and may be buy a couple of new funds. Clearly, a careful eye needs to be kept on the performance of markets across the globe, and any decision making modified as circumstances evolve.
    I have purposefully left building retirement cash until last so it gets eroded by inflation for as less time as possible before being used in drawdown. The rationale being that the source of the cash, ie my wages is index linked through annual pay increases (hopefully).

     I already have an emergency fund, a fully funded minimum of 6 months+ of household expenses kept on the sidelines, it's more now. It's been invaluable for unexpected car repairs and vets bills, having an emergency cash fund is probably the best thing I did when getting my financial shit together, along with getting out of debt.

    I'm aiming for a total retirement portfolio across my pension, wife's pension and ISA of 70% stocks, 20% bonds (Gilts) and 10% cash plus a separate cash emergency fund. I have built the stocks allocation first and as mentioned above will redirect salary sacrifice contributions to bonds and wrapped cash from 2023 onwards plus any additional savings after tax will add to this, maybe sooner if the market bounces back into the green in the 2nd half of 2022. Once I get to the desired asset allocation I will rebalance annually. I keep things simple, one low cost index fund for my pension, one for my wife's pension and one for our S&S ISA.


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  • khaotickhaotic Frets: 103
    An interesting narrative here:

    The view in late 2020:
    https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/12/30/move-over-warren-buffett-theres-a-new-must-follow/

    whereas all the news now says the tables are turned:



    https://www.thestreet.com/memestocks/reddit-trends/cathie-wood-vs-warren-buffett-who-will-win-in-2022

    So the benefit with value investing is that you have a logical reason to expect your investments to weather economic storms, whereas when pursuing growth stocks, your life savings are exposed to much more short to medium term risk. If retirement is 25 years away, this is less important.
    That's all very well to say the end return is the same, but if you'd run a trailing stop-loss, or used technical analysis and sold on a breached support level, you'd have either got out at around 90% in October 20, or about 150-160% in March 2021, in both cases drastically beating the BH returns.

    And yes, I realise this is all a bit wisdom of hindsight, but that's the whole point of using either a trailing stop-loss or support levels is to set the exit level before it's reached

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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    khaotic said:
    An interesting narrative here:

    The view in late 2020:
    https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/12/30/move-over-warren-buffett-theres-a-new-must-follow/

    whereas all the news now says the tables are turned:



    https://www.thestreet.com/memestocks/reddit-trends/cathie-wood-vs-warren-buffett-who-will-win-in-2022

    So the benefit with value investing is that you have a logical reason to expect your investments to weather economic storms, whereas when pursuing growth stocks, your life savings are exposed to much more short to medium term risk. If retirement is 25 years away, this is less important.
    That's all very well to say the end return is the same, but if you'd run a trailing stop-loss, or used technical analysis and sold on a breached support level, you'd have either got out at around 90% in October 20, or about 150-160% in March 2021, in both cases drastically beating the BH returns.

    And yes, I realise this is all a bit wisdom of hindsight, but that's the whole point of using either a trailing stop-loss or support levels is to set the exit level before it's reached

    wouldn't the trailing stop losses have all been triggered in March 2020? Losing 20% and then having the dilemma of deciding when to re-enter the market?
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  • longshinslongshins Frets: 241
    Hi there, I’d like to get into investing a bit. Please could you point me to some recommended reading etc? I’m totally new to it.
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  • khaotickhaotic Frets: 103
    wouldn't the trailing stop losses have all been triggered in March 2020? Losing 20% and then having the dilemma of deciding when to re-enter the market?
    Depending on your methods, so maybe - some let a trade run for a bit before adding a stop. But even if you stop out with a loss at say -25% at that point, you would be looking to re-enter shortly afterwards when the trend reversed. Worst case from there, you'd be in somewhere between -25% and 0 and out again anywhere between +60% and +140% depending how you're setting the stop level
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    khaotic said:
    wouldn't the trailing stop losses have all been triggered in March 2020? Losing 20% and then having the dilemma of deciding when to re-enter the market?
    Depending on your methods, so maybe - some let a trade run for a bit before adding a stop. But even if you stop out with a loss at say -25% at that point, you would be looking to re-enter shortly afterwards when the trend reversed. Worst case from there, you'd be in somewhere between -25% and 0 and out again anywhere between +60% and +140% depending how you're setting the stop level
    and how do you know when the trend has reversed? This is always the problem
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11438
    longshins said:
    Hi there, I’d like to get into investing a bit. Please could you point me to some recommended reading etc? I’m totally new to it.

    The Financial Times guide to investing

    Book by Glen Arnold
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13679
    An interesting narrative here:

    The view in late 2020:
    https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/12/30/move-over-warren-buffett-theres-a-new-must-follow/

    whereas all the news now says the tables are turned:



    https://www.thestreet.com/memestocks/reddit-trends/cathie-wood-vs-warren-buffett-who-will-win-in-2022

    So the benefit with value investing is that you have a logical reason to expect your investments to weather economic storms, whereas when pursuing growth stocks, your life savings are exposed to much more short to medium term risk. If retirement is 25 years away, this is less important.
    Reversion to the mean. Is this not a reinforcement for holding a blended index fund? A mix of growth and value, best of both worlds?


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